Drakejake
Member
The Swiss K-31 bolt action rifle is supposed to be very accurate. How does its accuracy compare with modern hunting rifles in similar calibres (.30) by Remington, Winchester, Savage, etc.?
Thanks,
Drakejake
Thanks,
Drakejake
K-31 as Accurate as Modern Hunting Rifles?
- Thread starter Drakejake
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Mannlicher
Member
Those are good military rifles. They are accurate as mil surp guns go. They are not howver, wonder weapons, as so many will have you believe. You will hear a lot about how good some guy's rifle shoots. Sub MOA and all........ but in all the years I shot them, and saw them at the range, I just never ran across that magical "Internet accurate" rifle in real life.
Drakejake
Member
I would say they were good military rifles--in the 19th Century when they originated. The idea of a bolt action rifle with a six round mag as a modern battle rifle is quaint. But I guess the Swiss won many battles with the Schmidt-Rubin and its successors! Ha, ha! I think it makes more sense as a hunting rifle than as a fighting firearm. I find it quite accurate in casual shooting, but I do not own a "hunting" rifle.
Drakejake
Drakejake
Cosmoline
Member
K-31's using GP-11 ammunition are on average MORE accurate than standard American hunting rifles. The ones I have owned have been at least 1 1/2 to 2MOA shooters. I also found them to be better built than most modern American Remchesters. They are not as good as a CZ 550 lux and you will probably find a new Savage to be more accurate. But for under two bills you can't go wrong.
Cosmoline
Member
Drakejake said:
Would you want to charge a foxhole guarded by one? You'd at least get to die with a high tech assault rifle in hand--but die you would.
But if you will note, the question is about the K-31 compared with modern HUNTING rifles, not modern BATTLE rifles.
Drakejake
Member
I was responding to Mannlicher, who said that the K-31 was a good military rifle. But I understand what he probably meant (good quality rifle made for soldiers, not a good battle rifle).
Drakejake
Drakejake
R.W.Dale
Member
I have run across very few bolt guns that given proper bedding and good ammo that would fail to be at least 2moa guns. One of the more recent ones was a Howa M1500 in 6.5x55 the rifle would never do any better than "Miniute of Deer"
but my M96 swedish mauser bubba jobber in full military stock 1.5moa every time sometimes better. Just cause they are old does not mean they won't shoot.
but my M96 swedish mauser bubba jobber in full military stock 1.5moa every time sometimes better. Just cause they are old does not mean they won't shoot.
I think (dangerous, I know 
) judging from comparing my Savage 10FP to my K-31, that the K-31 is as accurate with a cold bore. The heavier barrel and lack of long handguard and stock probably keep the Savage more consistent after a lot of rounds. The triggers are surprisingly similar, very smooth and light.
One consideration is the sighting systems used. Big 10x scope on the Savage, irons (took the scout scope off) on the K-31. The scope lets me be more precise, so I shoot the Savage more accurately.
Another consideration is the nut behind the trigger. I'm fairly sure some of the guys I've shot with could outshoot me with the K-31 no matter what Sako/AI/Remchester and scope combo I had. It's a very solid rifle.
S/F
Farnham
) judging from comparing my Savage 10FP to my K-31, that the K-31 is as accurate with a cold bore. The heavier barrel and lack of long handguard and stock probably keep the Savage more consistent after a lot of rounds. The triggers are surprisingly similar, very smooth and light.One consideration is the sighting systems used. Big 10x scope on the Savage, irons (took the scout scope off) on the K-31. The scope lets me be more precise, so I shoot the Savage more accurately.
Another consideration is the nut behind the trigger. I'm fairly sure some of the guys I've shot with could outshoot me with the K-31 no matter what Sako/AI/Remchester and scope combo I had. It's a very solid rifle.
S/F
Farnham
countertop
Member
Never fired one. Just ordered one from AIM Surplus today though.
In any case, I'd say they were damn fine rifles. So good, that in all the years the Swiss relied on them, no one (not even Hitler) dared attack the Swiss.
In any case, I'd say they were damn fine rifles. So good, that in all the years the Swiss relied on them, no one (not even Hitler) dared attack the Swiss.
R.W.Dale
Member
countertop said:
Why would he? they were they were both pretty much on the same side. Although the Swiss would NEVER admit to as much.
longhorngunman
Member
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They are as accurate as you'll get for under a $100. Probably outshoot most straight outta the box Wal-Mart guns anyhow, except maybe for a Savage. I put a scope on one for my father, neither one of us is gonna give Carlos Hathcock a run for his money and yet we can hit the bullseye at 100 yards continually! Does seem to wander though once the barrel gets to warmin' up.
cracked butt
Member
Better made than off the shelf remchesterugers and have the potential to be more accurate than an out of the box new rifle.
cracked butt
Member
Wouldn't make any sense for Hitler to shoot his banker.
Cosmoline
Member
Why not? He could take his own money and everyone else's money to boot.
I think the issue over the K-31 as a military arm today is not it's mechanical capability as a battle rifle - rather how battles are fought and modern strategy. If winning means able shooters each locating and hitting enemy troopers, the K-31 is probably still an outstanding arm.
The Swiss took in more refugees per capita than any other nation, in addition to the Allied personnel given sanctuary. As well as essential trade with Germany for foodstuffs and fuels like coal, the Swiss provided some very high quality and specialized military items for the allies. The Swiss also had some of the best intelligence during the war and made it available to the Allies . The Swiss executed a considerable number of their own citizens who were Nazi collaboraters. While the Swiss did not, I believe, shoot down a single Allied plane that violated their airspace, they shot down a number of German military aircraft who did.
Lastly, not least; the Swiss had every right - moral and legal - to maintain their neutrality.
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http://ssunitedstates.org
Not to divert the thread - but in the interests of historical accuracy, and the good people of Switzerland - this is a big pile of BravoSierra.krochus said:
The Swiss took in more refugees per capita than any other nation, in addition to the Allied personnel given sanctuary. As well as essential trade with Germany for foodstuffs and fuels like coal, the Swiss provided some very high quality and specialized military items for the allies. The Swiss also had some of the best intelligence during the war and made it available to the Allies . The Swiss executed a considerable number of their own citizens who were Nazi collaboraters. While the Swiss did not, I believe, shoot down a single Allied plane that violated their airspace, they shot down a number of German military aircraft who did.
Lastly, not least; the Swiss had every right - moral and legal - to maintain their neutrality.
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http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
countertop
Member
Thanks LAK.
No need to respond any further.
No need to respond any further.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Cosmoline said:
Respectibility. Hitler never wanted to take over the world, just Europe and Asia. He would want the Swiss to appear "neutral" so that the rest of the world would continue to use them as their banker.
Somehow I doubt the K31 would have repelled the Nazis, but I also ordered a K31 from AIM this week
countertop
Member
A K31 in the hands of every citizen (with every citizen being a significantly better shot than the average german soldier) together with the geography of Switzerland did in fact prevent the Nazis from interferring with Switzerland.
phoglund
Member
Everytime I hear about the Swiss Vs the Germans I think back to the quote of a Swiss leader when the German Kaiser asked him what his army would do if Germany invaded Switzerland with an Army twice the size of the Swiss Army. "Shoot Twice" was the reply. 
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
countertop said:
Well I don't want to turn this into a history thread, but the Nazi's left Switzerland alone for non-military reasons.
A fine Hunter
My K31 is as accurate as most modern rifles. Shoots MOA. I use a scout scope with it, and think it would make a fine deer/hog rifle.
The main reason to use a modern rifle instead of a K-31 in a hunt is weight. A modern lightweight rifle might weigh 1-2lbs less.
My K31 is as accurate as most modern rifles. Shoots MOA. I use a scout scope with it, and think it would make a fine deer/hog rifle.
The main reason to use a modern rifle instead of a K-31 in a hunt is weight. A modern lightweight rifle might weigh 1-2lbs less.
Mesa
Member
I have five K-31's, and one of just about every comparably price mil surp out there. Excepting an M-96 Swede 6.5 Mauser all five seem to be considerably more accurate than MOST of the other mil-surps I have. I have two VZ-24 Mausers that shoot almost as accurately. I don't really shoot groups with my mil-surps. We have a 700 yard range nearby with torso sized (around 20"x30") steel targets at one-hundred yard increments. Out to 500 yards the K-31's will do 5 for 5 consistantly. This is all with open sights. None of my mil-surps are scoped. I struggle with 600 because at that distance i have a lot of trouble seeing the individual targets. Actually, I have trouble at 500 too, but since there is a row of five targets I can locate them and BARELY distinguish one from the other. 700 is a large man sized target we call Fred but there is only one and I still have trouble seeing him with open sights.
I only verify that I hit the actual target I was aiming at and I don't even try to estimate group sizes because I consider a hit-a hit with mil-surps. I am VERY confident that a man sized target at 500 yards would be a dead duck with a K-31 however. And I expect at 600 and 700 a fellow would respect the K-31's accuracy.
I'm right on the verge of ordering one of the clamp-on scope mounts from Midway I have been hearing about. I REALLY want to see what the K-31 will do on Fred, but I'm heavy into not altering (perminantly at least) my mil-surps.
I guess I'd have to say with open sights and my failing eyesight the K-31's I have shoot around 2-3 MOA. I believe that it would be less than that with a scope however. Maybe 1.5 to 2.5 or so.
I only verify that I hit the actual target I was aiming at and I don't even try to estimate group sizes because I consider a hit-a hit with mil-surps. I am VERY confident that a man sized target at 500 yards would be a dead duck with a K-31 however. And I expect at 600 and 700 a fellow would respect the K-31's accuracy.
I'm right on the verge of ordering one of the clamp-on scope mounts from Midway I have been hearing about. I REALLY want to see what the K-31 will do on Fred, but I'm heavy into not altering (perminantly at least) my mil-surps.
I guess I'd have to say with open sights and my failing eyesight the K-31's I have shoot around 2-3 MOA. I believe that it would be less than that with a scope however. Maybe 1.5 to 2.5 or so.
telomerase
Member
The Nazis drew up plans to invade Switzerland, but cancelled them after deciding that it would be too costly. The Swiss deterred them by threatening to take their whole army into the mountains and sit on the rail links between Germany and Italy.
Hitler also had a Swiss bank account, and the Swiss banks stored their gold in long tunnels, with demo charges. (Not an important reason, but a funny comment on "socialist" dictators' private behavior).
LAK is right about the Swiss taking in more refugees per capita than anyone else. Before entry into the war, the US turned away ships full of Jews, who ended up in death camps. The Liechtensteiners (allied with the Swiss) also protected some Russian refugees from the Red Army at the end of WWII.
Military surplus rifles can be as accurate as any other rifle. The K31 is known for its accuracy. Out of the 50 rifles I own, my K31 is the most accurate. I regularly get 1" groups at 100 yards with open sights on this rifle. When I don't, it is due to my error. I have several Finnish mosins that are nearly as good.
The other factor that impresses me about milsurps is their hardiness. They can take a beating that the modern sporting firearm could never take. And of course, the history and price makes them very collectible.
The other factor that impresses me about milsurps is their hardiness. They can take a beating that the modern sporting firearm could never take. And of course, the history and price makes them very collectible.
The Real Hawkeye
member
Absolutely, LAK. I don't understand all the lies told about the Swiss concerning WWII neutrality. All lies. The Germans were constantly attempting to infiltrate Switzerland before and during the war, and the Swiss wouldn't have it. They were very hard on Nazi collaborators, and did not give an inch. They had every right to be neutral, and in fact I admire them for it. It was George Washington's wish for our nation too. Too bad we didn't heed his advice.LAK said:
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