K38 with 357 magnum cylinder
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BSA1
member
Back to the O.P. I wouldn't run away from the gun until you inspect it. Check for flame cutting on the topstrap, forcing cone wear and timing. As commented it was very common to ream the cylinders on Model 10's for .357. Most of the time Magnums were rarely shot.
There is some controversy when it comes to the heat treating for the K frame .38 Special and .357 Magnum frames. In Roy Jinks' book, he wrote that S&W tested different steel and heat treating combinations when developing the Combat Magnum (Model 19) revolver in 1954-1955. It's always been assumed that the K frame .357 Magnums were treated differently in actual production. The SCSW is silent on the matter.
Until someone categorically shows the proof to the contrary, it would seem that there were differences in heat treating.
S&W, in the 1930's opted to build .38-44 revolvers on the N frame. There were concerns that lighter frames wouldn't stand up to the punishment of the heavier round. Now, the Combat Magnum came along a scant twenty years later. It wouldn't be out of line for the same concerns would exist for a much higher pressure round like the .357 Magnum in the K frame. Granted, there were improvements in steel and heat treating in the interim years, but the concerns wouldn't have changed.
Did S&W heat treat all K frames the same, to handle .357 Magnums? That may make sense, but it's not a certainty.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
It would make sense, if for no other reason than to eliminate the possibility of a mix-up...which does happen from time to time.
On the other hand, it was clearly stated on .38-44 ammunition end flaps that the rounds contained therein were to be used only in heavy revolvers...and the people who ignored that advice and fired the stuff in .38 Hand Ejectors, Victory Models, and Model 10s quickly learned the error of their ways.
I've fired the old .38-44 ammo...sort of .38+P+++...and it's pretty rambunctious, though not quite up to even today's gelded .357/158-grain offerings. The problem is that there's still quite a bit of the original .357 Magnum loading still around. I used to see small lots of it at gun shows sometimes, and...trust me...you don't want to shoot a whole bunch of it even in a .357 K Frame. Not if you hold the gun in any regard, anyway.
S&W K and KT frames made following World War Two had upgraded material but no special treating procedures that were better then those made before the war. That said, the first KT-frame .357 Magnum was the model 19, and it was serial numbered along with other models (such as the 14) that used the same frame. If they're was a difference in frames the company would have had to identify which was which, either by using a dash-number stamped on the respective frames, or using different serial number series to identify them. Neither happened, but later the frame was beefed up during the late 1990's. Other changes were also made to address Magnum issues in K-frame revolvers.
But the most consequential change was the introduction of the L-frame, that could stand up to extended use with .357 ammunition, while it was generally understood that K-frame revolvers were intended for limited use, and .38
Special rounds otherwise.
Another obvious change they could have done was to move the firing pin from the hammer to the frame, in which less metal directly behind the case head would have been removed. Again this didn't happen until much later, and for different reasons.
K-frame = fixed sights
KT-frame = K-frame machined for adjustable target rear sight.
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Confederate
Member
One of my favorite guns is a 3-inch Ruger Speed-Six .38 spl that was reamed for .357 magnum. I think if Smith & Wesson actually produced the cylinder, you'd be okay using factory loads. I've heard the standard Smith .38s have the same heat treats as magnums when they come with dual cylinders. But to play it safe, I recommend getting a decent used Security-Six. Excellent balance and durable beyond belief. They're starting to acquire "collectors" status, so if you want one, now's the time.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
No Smith & Wesson that I'm aware of has ever come with dual cylinders for Special and Magnum.
If you mean .357 Magnum loads you're wrong, and dangerously so.
Smith & Wesson cylinders, regardless of what cartridge they were chambered for were made to withstand the top pressure generated by that particular round according to regconized industry standards - plus a generous margin.
Cylinders made for non-Magnums (especially .38 Special) were not made with the same steel and heat treating because the extra cost would could have make them non-competitive when bidding on government or police contracts. Colt did the same.
I'm not sure about Ruger, but I do know what they will tell you if you call their customer service department and ask. I also know what will happen if you return your rechambered revolver to the company for service.
Confederate
Member
If S&W manufactured the cylinder to work with a particular gun, I'd be inclined to trust them. But if it's a gunsmith that fitted it, that's something else entirely. I know a guy who loves to shoot full factory magnums in his K-frame 19. He said after a couple of thousand full throttle loads, his gun went out of time. He was able to fix the gun, but after a couple of thousand more rounds, he said the frame stretching was so bad that it couldn't take any more magnum rounds -- just .38s, and the accuracy was noticeably affected.
One magazine published an article on K-frame Smiths and claimed there was no difference between .38 frames and .357 frames; also, that the company denied there was any difference in heat treat or materials and that part numbers were the same on both guns. Frankly, I can't buy that, but I've never been able to either confirm or deny it. Colt built its Python on a larger frame, but made the gun's pawl, or hand, so tiny at the contact point that they go out of time every few thousand rounds. Some people actually hard chrome the contact points so that wear virtually ceases. Ruger's Security-Six, the Colt V Trooper and Dan Wesson revolvers, though, were solid.
If someone bought a S&W K-frame and then had a gunsmith fit a .357 barrel to it, that would be irresponsible and many smiths wouldn't do it just because of liability reasons. But again, if the factory sold them together, that would be different.
My Speed-Six .38, though, is one of the sweetest .357s I've owned. The gunsmith was able to ream the chambers to such precise dimensions so that it spits out JHPs to very tight groups. I wish they had never stopped making them.
One magazine published an article on K-frame Smiths and claimed there was no difference between .38 frames and .357 frames; also, that the company denied there was any difference in heat treat or materials and that part numbers were the same on both guns. Frankly, I can't buy that, but I've never been able to either confirm or deny it. Colt built its Python on a larger frame, but made the gun's pawl, or hand, so tiny at the contact point that they go out of time every few thousand rounds. Some people actually hard chrome the contact points so that wear virtually ceases. Ruger's Security-Six, the Colt V Trooper and Dan Wesson revolvers, though, were solid.
If someone bought a S&W K-frame and then had a gunsmith fit a .357 barrel to it, that would be irresponsible and many smiths wouldn't do it just because of liability reasons. But again, if the factory sold them together, that would be different.
My Speed-Six .38, though, is one of the sweetest .357s I've owned. The gunsmith was able to ream the chambers to such precise dimensions so that it spits out JHPs to very tight groups. I wish they had never stopped making them.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
I have never heard of a S&W Model 14 or any .38 Special K frame coming with a .357 Magnum cylinder from the factory. IMO they just would not do that. (although anything is possible) I have the Standard Catalog of S&W 3rd edition and nowhere in that book do they mention a M14 with an additional .357 Magnum cylinder or any .38 Special K frame for that matter produced with that cylinder from the factory.
Lucky Derby
Member
Rugers are different than S&W & Colt in this regard. Both S&W & Colt offered .38 Special versions as regular catalog items. Ruger did not. S&W & Colt made different .38 & .357 cylinders. The .38s were shorter, if nothing else.If you mean .357 Magnum loads you're wrong, and dangerously so.
Smith & Wesson cylinders, regardless of what cartridge they were chambered for were made to withstand the top pressure generated by that particular round according to regconized industry standards - plus a generous margin.
Cylinders made for non-Magnums (especially .38 Special) were not made with the same steel and heat treating because the extra cost would could have make them non-competitive when bidding on government or police contracts. Colt did the same.
I'm not sure about Ruger, but I do know what they will tell you if you call their customer service department and ask. I also know what will happen if you return your rechambered revolver to the company for service.
Ruger did not offer the .38 as a regular catalog item. (talking about the Security/Service/Speed-Six & GP series revolvers, not the SP series)They were only made for police and other contracts, with over runs being sold to the general public. Because of this, the Ruger cylinders are the same, except for the size of the chamber. Reaming out a .38 Ruger to .357 is completely safe, if done correctly. Not so with S&W or Colt.
Confederate
Member
Yes, Ruger's always built tough. Besides, my old gunsmith was a stickler for safety. He wouldn't have done the job if there had been even a chance of failure. He was short in temperment, but people paid a lot of money to get treated like snot. Besides, the cylinder has held up fine.
Yes, and you may - or may not - turn out to be right, but the point I am trying to make is in the event you need the factory service department to work on it they won't touch it with a 10-foot pole because that's what they're lawyers recommend. Keep in mind that sometimes the only way to get certain parts is to send the gun back to Ruger.
You may not give a hoot, but other readers might.
You may not give a hoot, but other readers might.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Well I finally got a chance, and the time, to measure a 8 3/8" K-38 of the same age (1978) as my 6" Model 19 Combat Magnum.
Here are the results of the measurements.
Hope this helps somebody, sometime.
rc
Here are the results of the measurements.
Hope this helps somebody, sometime.
rc
As Jim K stated, regardless of whether or not the cylinder will fit, I find it very doubtful that S&W would shoulder the liability of installing or even making a custom .357 cylinder for a Model 14. Not in todays sue everyone world.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
+1
And they never would have back in the day either.
I just posted the measurements as general info someone might find useful.
Bottom line is, the frame window is pretty close enough to do it if you trim back the .38 barrel shank, or put a Model 19 barrel on it with the already shorter barrel shank.
For sure, NOT RECOMMENDED though!!!
The OP's gun just didn't look right from the get-go though.
The barrel didn't fit the frame contour right.
It was a conversion.
rc
And they never would have back in the day either.
I just posted the measurements as general info someone might find useful.
Bottom line is, the frame window is pretty close enough to do it if you trim back the .38 barrel shank, or put a Model 19 barrel on it with the already shorter barrel shank.
For sure, NOT RECOMMENDED though!!!
The OP's gun just didn't look right from the get-go though.
The barrel didn't fit the frame contour right.
It was a conversion.
rc
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
I knew a guy...now deceased...who made up a Model 10 "convertible" by shortening a Model 13 cylinder, and it worked.
The noses of the 158-grain SWC bullets were dang near flush with the ends of the chambers, so he had to use a firm crimp to prevent jump...but he didn't use full throttle data, so it never caused him a problem.
If memory serves me, his preferred power loading was 14 grains of 2400 which was about all he wanted to deal with in the tapered-barrel revolver, and his general purpose load was 7.0 grains of Unique...which was much less unpleasant and a near duplicate for .38-44 HD aka .38 High Velocity ammunition. I seem to remember him telling me that it clocked nearly 1100 fps from the 4-inch barrel. The same load runs about 1050 from my 3-inch Model 13.
For what it's worth, I've always advised using lead bullets for the bulk of use in all K-Frames... .38 and .357 Magnum.
Much easier on the forcing cones and places less tensile stress on the topstrap.
The noses of the 158-grain SWC bullets were dang near flush with the ends of the chambers, so he had to use a firm crimp to prevent jump...but he didn't use full throttle data, so it never caused him a problem.
If memory serves me, his preferred power loading was 14 grains of 2400 which was about all he wanted to deal with in the tapered-barrel revolver, and his general purpose load was 7.0 grains of Unique...which was much less unpleasant and a near duplicate for .38-44 HD aka .38 High Velocity ammunition. I seem to remember him telling me that it clocked nearly 1100 fps from the 4-inch barrel. The same load runs about 1050 from my 3-inch Model 13.
For what it's worth, I've always advised using lead bullets for the bulk of use in all K-Frames... .38 and .357 Magnum.
Much easier on the forcing cones and places less tensile stress on the topstrap.
kBob
Member
Well this has been interesting.
I used to shoot factory .357 in a Model 19 6inch patridge sighted model on occasion but generally practiced and target shot with .38 Special lead SWC reloads that were a bit mild. While in Europe I bought some copper washed Winchester 158 grain SWC ammo that was supposedly still loaded to 1930's pressures and velocity. I just wanted something better than the GI FMJ .38 Special I had access to. I only shot up a couple of boxes of the stuff as it was rough on the hands and ears.
I still had the gun when the FDLE (our state version of the FBI) decided to get rid of their M19's of various barrel lengths. Their last year of using the M19s which got a steady diet of factory .357 mag loads was pretty rough according to a couple of agents I spoke with. both claimed that about 50 percent of the M19s had timing issues and both claim to have seen agents that had non functional altogether guns show up for qualification. They were pleased with their then new big clunky Barfetta M92 what evers......because unlike the .357 feed 20 + year old M19s they all shot.
DO recall that this was when all the ex-spurts worked hard to convince police agencies to shoot their carry loads even in training. Sounds good but.....
-kBob
I used to shoot factory .357 in a Model 19 6inch patridge sighted model on occasion but generally practiced and target shot with .38 Special lead SWC reloads that were a bit mild. While in Europe I bought some copper washed Winchester 158 grain SWC ammo that was supposedly still loaded to 1930's pressures and velocity. I just wanted something better than the GI FMJ .38 Special I had access to. I only shot up a couple of boxes of the stuff as it was rough on the hands and ears.
I still had the gun when the FDLE (our state version of the FBI) decided to get rid of their M19's of various barrel lengths. Their last year of using the M19s which got a steady diet of factory .357 mag loads was pretty rough according to a couple of agents I spoke with. both claimed that about 50 percent of the M19s had timing issues and both claim to have seen agents that had non functional altogether guns show up for qualification. They were pleased with their then new big clunky Barfetta M92 what evers......because unlike the .357 feed 20 + year old M19s they all shot.
DO recall that this was when all the ex-spurts worked hard to convince police agencies to shoot their carry loads even in training. Sounds good but.....
-kBob
Black Knight
Member
What may have happened is the previous owner found a model 19 he could use for a parts gun and kept the cylinder with the model 14. Would I consider the swap? No way.
BSA1
member
One thing about Smith & Wesson is one can not never say never. For example I once had a K-38 that came from the factory with 4" barrel. They were issue duty guns for Kansas City Police Dept.
jad0110
Member
Use the right tool for the job.
If you need to tow a 14,000 5th wheel trailer, don't do it with a half ton '95 Chevy.
Don't use a wal mart special flat head screw driver to remove screws from your like NIB pre-Model 29 S&W.
If someones wants to shoot .38 special, buy a .38 special or .357 Mag.
If shooting .357 magnum is desired, buy a .357 magnum.
If you want to shoot .44 magnum, don't load a .357 up to .44 magnum power levels ... buy a .44 magnum ... etc.
Safe and happy shooting!
If you need to tow a 14,000 5th wheel trailer, don't do it with a half ton '95 Chevy.
Don't use a wal mart special flat head screw driver to remove screws from your like NIB pre-Model 29 S&W.
If someones wants to shoot .38 special, buy a .38 special or .357 Mag.
If shooting .357 magnum is desired, buy a .357 magnum.
If you want to shoot .44 magnum, don't load a .357 up to .44 magnum power levels ... buy a .44 magnum ... etc.
Safe and happy shooting!
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