k98 mauser vs. lee enfield

[alex14]

Hi All
this is my first thread hear on The High Road so bear with me.I'm going to get a new surplus rifle for shooting and possibly hunting. Right now I'm split between a Lee Enfield jungle carbine and a K98 Mauser. I have a few of each to choose from but the jungle carbines seem to have better wood. Also the k98s aren't Russian reworks but mismatch German and Czech k98s.Also is the wandering zero a myth or is there some truth? The bores are good to very good on most, I want accuracy to be good but wouldn't expect a tack driver. I've narrowed my choice to these two because i live in rugged British Columbia so a mosin nagant or a full stock enfield would be a little unwieldy. So which is better and why? would you recommend these or similar milsurps?
Any info would be great.

Thanks

Alex

 

[earplug]

Neither, If shooting and hunting is your goal. Both rifles have the limitation of depending on surplus government ammo that is decades old. If you reload your still stuck with obsolete military rounds from the last world war. A modern cartridge is just as cheap to reload for and better in accuracy and available components.
If you enjoy shooting get a modern rifle with a modern cartridge.
The cheap military rifle will soon give you fits in accuracy and satisfaction.
A decent commercial 308 would make you happy at the range and less frustrated in the future.
Factor in drilling and tapping for scope mounts, trigger work, barrels worn out or corroded due to corrosive ammo and the old military rifle is a candidate for a lamp shade.

 

[alex14]

thanks for the post earplug, im more interested in getting a historical rifle as my grandfather was in the WW2. im not serious about hunting with either of them unless they had gifted accuracy, i hear you with hunting rifle, i own a winchester 88 in .308 for my hunting duties, also i can get .303 and 8mm soft point ammunition at most sporting goods stores here with out a problem

 

[atlanticfire]

I've hunted with one of my k98s and reload some nice rounds for it as well. I have several and love them all. One that coincidentally was my grandfathers so I understand where you are coming from.

 

[alex14]

Thanks for you post atlanticfire +1 for a mauser

 

[saturno_v]

I have to agree with Earplug

If you are not into antique or military surplus collecting, for the purpose of hunting and target shooting you would be better served by a modern sporter bolt action rifle or a sporterized Mauser in a modern caliber (ton of them are available around here in Western WA rechambered in 30-06 and often already scoped....you could buy one as little as $150-200 and many have been very nicely sporterized)

The only old military rifle that makes sense to me, again from a non military surplus collector point of view, is the Mosin Nagant (at least as long as they stay well below $100)

The simple reason is that you can buy one for only $80-90, many are in excellent conditions (part of the fun is picking the right one), it fires a very powerful cartridge still used by major armed forces in the world.

Ammo is cheap, plentiful and it's going to be around well after the 8 mm Mauser and the 303 British will be history.

Furthermore, the American manufacturers load the 8 mm Mauser at 30-30 level, well below its full potential and it is expensive.
The 303 British is expensive too.

The 7,62x54R is equivalent to a 30-06 in terms of power, so is well above the 303 British and the "Americanized" 8 mm Mauser, it's cheaper and it is much easier to find in stores, both surplus and commercial ammo.

The Mosin gives you the chance to have a blast with a full power rifle with iron sights spending peanuts and you can use it for short range hunting.

 

[atlanticfire]

Alex, it sounds like from your second post that you are already set with you hunting rig? If that is correct and you are just looking for a collectors item that you might was to shoot from time to time I still say get what you want (mauser). Yes, these rifles are older, but look how the k98 was made (like a tank). Yes, some of the old surplus ammo can be a little nasty, and may require serious clean after shooting. But there is better ammo that may not be so corrosive. I have some mildly corrosive stuff in tins (3 tins 640rds each) that I don’t shoot because I reload but I like knowing that I have it. It’s always been just as easy for me to get that as any other mil surplus. So I think it’s safe to say it’s going to be around a long time yet. Yes, American 8mm ammo is loaded very weak. I think this is to assume that all rifle of this chambering are of serious age, and from a liability stand point they don't want to be responsible for blown up old guns. I think a lot of it is just bull hockey. BUT, with guns of age should be checked out by a qualified person before firing. I’m able to push a 180 gr bullet about 2500 fps with some varget, so no slouch here. Point is, collecting and shooting guns is all about what YOU want. Your collection is going to be different from mine and mines from the next guy, so to each his own. Besides my WW2 grandfather (89) still enjoys looking at the old stuff and it gives us something to talk about.

 

[chevyforlife21]

they do make modern ammo for both the .303 and 8 mm from remington and others

 

[alex14]

Thank for the help guys i never put much thought into a collection but I guess thats what I might do, I love my Winchester 88 and it'll stay as my perfect hunting rifle, so a collection i can shoot sounds like a pretty good idea to me. My grandfather is also ageing atlanticfire so we also like to talk about his old days too, its crazy how thing have changed from back then to now.

 

[Ignition Override]

alex14:
chevyforlife beat me to it.
Rem. and Prvi Partizan (maybe other companies?) produce .303 ammo. Canada might have more surplus than the US. And the Lee Enfields have taken all game in North America, and even African game, up to elephants.

A friend (retired from a military rifle team) recently tried out my Lee Enfield #4, which only has iron sights, nothing has been modified-and never will on my milsurps: a MN 44, LE #4, two #5s.
Mike has not tried out a LE in years, if ever. He set some recent records with ARs using iron sights from 200 and maybe also 600 yards.

Anyway, his first shots were from 50 yards and produced about a 3" group, right by the bullseye.
His next shot, and only one (further than 50) was from 100 yards, was squatting on the ground with no artificial support for the rifle (just hands/knees).
Mike's Only shot from 100 yards hit the middle of the bullseye. Not accurate?
This might have been with '43 British-made ammo...

Frankly, I've never hunted, but lots of people do so with their LEs, whether #4s or even #5s ("Jungle Carbines"). You can verify this on: 'Gunboards', 'Surplusrifle', 'Gunandgame'.
"Tikirocker" and other Moderators, plus other highly-seasoned members can clear up/qualify any hearsay and rumours.

Don't get me wrong. For many people, ammo prices/availablity can be the most critical factor in deciding which rifles to buy. Not just gun prices. If I had found Mauser 8mm ammo as cheap as 7.62x54R, then couple of Yugo Mausers would have been my choice over my MNs, but was very lucky to find a heap of cheap .303, which really helped the decision to buy my first LE, and second/third. Some reading about various ammo+shipping prices in BC could be surprising.

 

[saturno_v]

they do make modern ammo for both the .303 and 8 mm from remington and others

American ammo in 8 mm Mauser and 303 British can cost as much as their 300 Winchester Magnum!!

7,62x54R ammo, both military surplus and hunting is much easier to find and cheaper than 303 or 8 mm, hands down.

 

[wnycollector]

I have a 1937 vintage K98, and ishapore smle in 7.62x51 and an enfield No. 5 in .303, as well as several mosin nagants (M38, M44 and 91/30). Three years ago I took a nice 4 point buck with my K98 and wolf gold/privi 196gr SP's. All of my mil surplus rifles are accurate and powerful enough to hunt with iron sights out to 100 yards. The ishapore enfield is a nice mixture of historical mil surplus looks coupled with a powerful modern cartridge. The jungle carbine is lighter and has great sights (peep sights are awesome!) The carbine length nagants are very handy and pack a punch. Plus they are sooo cheap to feed!

For me personally, it would come down to what condition each rifle was in vs $$$.

 

[Ohio Gun Guy]

I say mauser over the jungle carbine......

NO1 ML4 VS Mauser????????

 

[Robert]

The K98 or Enfield both have enough power to take North American game with Bison and large Moose being the only exception I can think of. The only real draw back to a military platform is the difficulty in scoping the rifle with out doing perminante damge. Drilling and tapping mar the receiver. As long as the rifle is accurate and you know your holds with iron sights I'd say go with it. I would take the K98 or a No1 or No4 over the No5 but that is just me. I would not make long range shots (past 250 yards) with iron sights but it can be done if you know your rifle. And a far as using a Mosin... sure they are not that much money but most I have seen pattern like a shotgun at 100 yards. My old Russian Capture K98 groups about 4" at 100, but then again I was shooting off a bench using my elbows as support. I have hit targets out to 500 meters with it using iron sights in one shot.

 

[RonE]

The Mauser has greater long term potential than the SMLE. Sporter conversions of SMLE's are by in large pretty ugly whereas Mauser sporters are often works of art.

 

[jpwilly]

Some of the mil surp K98's and SMLE's I've shot with irons were very accurate. Others not so and they took some extra work and load development. It's a crap shoot with K98's, the SMLE or No 4's and No 5's. If you get luckey you may just have a winner if not they are still fun to play with.

 

[MachIVshooter]

If were were talking No.4 enfield, it'd be a tougher choice. But the jungle carbines are quite loud and rather unpleasant to fire due to the tiny metal buttplate. Between the two, i'd say mauser. The 8mm is a good bit more powerful cartridge than the .303 as well.

The No. 4 SMLE, OTOH, has twice the magazine capacity and a faster action than the K98. IMO, Those two attributes make up for the disparity in cartridge power

 

[DougW]

I have 13 .303 rifles from #1mkIII's, #3mk1* (Pattern 14), #4mk1's and mk1*'s, to #5mk1's. I also have 2 8mm Mausers. I spend most my time with the Enfields, as I consider them the most advanced issued bolt action rifles ever produced. That being said, probably my most accurate .303 is the #3mk1* Remington made in 1917, which is a Mauser action. I also know that my K98 is extreemly accurate. But, My Fazakerley #5mk1 and my Fazakerley #4mk1 rifles will shoot 2" groups at 100 yards all day.

Surplus for the .303 has dried up and usually the only thing to be found is the POF junk. 8mm is still around in surplus ammo. Factory Remington, Federal, and Winchester ammo is available, but they are under loaded for liability reasons. Ammo like Privi Partizan, Hot Shot, PMC, Wolf, Sellier & Beloit, etc tend to be loaded closer to military spec.

I shoot my #4mk1 Enfields in Vintage Matches, and I favor them in general. I would use a Mauser action rifle is I wanted to extract the extreem in accuracy though.

I also reload for the .303's, and have not yet started reloading for the 8mm Mausers yet.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

Both of those rifles are great. Either will serve you well. If you want a detachable magazine, go with the Enfield, if not go with the Mauser. Both rifles have good hunting accuracy,usually 2"-4" groups(assuming guns are in good condition). If you choose to add a scope,go with the Jungle Carbine as no modification of the bolt is necessary. Excellent hunting ammo is available for both and as reasonably priced as any modern caliber. Choose the one you like best and enjoy it.

 

[Al Thompson]

Alex, as your in Canada, this may not be accurate. Down here good #5 Jungle Carbines are just about impossible to find, so if I were you, I'd get a good one quick. Mausers and M/Ns are fairly thick on the ground here, so no rush to get one.

I've heard the wandering zero bit for years too, but no personal experience. Read with in the last few months (somewhere on the net) that it's a myth. YMMV!

 

[MachIVshooter]

If you want a detachable magazine, go with the Enfield

The SMLE's magazine is not intended to be swapped for reloading. Case in point, the magazine from one rifle may not fit well or feed reliably in another. The SMLE is meant to be loaded from a stripper clip. The primary purpose of the detachable magazine is to unload the rifle without having to cycle the rounds through the action.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

What is your point MachIVshooter? What did I say to indicate magazine swapping?

 

[t2490jh]

Surplus Rifles

I have a collection of over 40 rifles with 75% being of the surplus nature. K98's, Enfields, 1903's, Garand's, k31's, Japanese T99, and Mosin Nagant's. All of the above rifles are extremely accurate and could serve a purpose for hunting. Of course the length and weight of a surplus rifle could be of concern.

I find the K31 to be the most accurate rifle out there. Put a scope on it and you would shoot under 1" all day long at 100 yards. The 7.5x55 cartridge has the same ballistics as the 308. The 1903 was a sniper rifle in WWII. I have seen many Japanese T99's converted into hunting rifles. The one I have will out shoot 3 out of my four Enfields. The 7.7 Japanese round is almost identical to the 303 round. Privi and Wolf Gold Ammo is sold for all of the above rifles so surplus ammo should not be an issue. I could go on and on.

Like some of the other replies, I think the perfect choice for accuracy vs. cost is the Mosin Nagant. Buy a rifle for $100. Put on a scope with base and rings for under $150-$300. My recommendation would be not to skimp on the optics. Remember, you can always use the scope on another rifle. Find out what you want before you put a lot of money into it.

I don't know how many people start hunting or shooting and go out and spend a fortune. I gave a friend of mine who I gave this same advise two years ago. I told him to go with a the Mosin Nagant set up or with a lever action 30-30. Keep it simple. He want out and spent $900 for the rifle, $100 for the scope, put cheap rings and base on it, and has hunting with it one time. Expensive.

My hunting rifle is a Weatherby in 308. I had this rifle prior to my interest in surplus rifles. However, I would have no problem in hunting with a surplus rifle in the suitable configuration. My preference would be the K31.

 

[Limey46]

Here are the pros and cons as I see them. The background is that currently I own both a #5 Jungle Carbine and an arsenal-reworked 98, and I've owned several others. Basically they're just for fun at the range, though in the past I've hunted with a Jungle Carbine.

Jungle Carbine. The "wandering zero" is indeed a myth, in my opinion, but on the other hand, this isn't a terrifically accurate weapon. Neither is it a lot of fun to shoot for more than an occasional few rounds. That "recoil pad" on the back end is in fact a recoil magnifier; though soft-ish when originally issued, it petrified into concrete after a few years, and now provides concentrated contact with your shoulder.Which doesn't matter, of course, if you're just trying to stop the Japs from getting at you with their bayonets, but sitting at a bench at the range in the calm of the 21st Century it's positively painful. I've bought and sold several Jungle Carbines for precisely this reason -- love the idea, hate the reality. Of course, you can always get a slip-on recoil pad for the gun (spoiling its lines) or a strap-on pad for yourself. I still love standing up and whacking ten rounds through the thing as fast as I can get 'em on target, blast be damned. It balances nicely and is of course very handy, and the sights are great.

98 (short) Mauser: Here, the sights SUCK. They're teeny-tiny, and they won't zero under 300 yards, so if all you've got is a 100-yard range, you're stuck aiming 18 inches low, shooting 18 inches high, or buying and installing aftermarket sights (spoiling the lines). That's my current setup: $80 Mojo sights on a Yugo-reworked Czech VZ-24. As a range toy, this is kinder than the Jungle Carbine -- more accurate, more comfortable, quite a lot less noisy and violent. The straight bolt handle on all but the true German 98Ks and their copies is a little awkward, but other than that I like them. Note that ALL military surplus 8mm ammo is corrosive, so you ALWAYS need to clean your bore and bolt soon after shooting it. The Prvi is not corrosive. American commercial 8mm ammo is loaded down, way under military spec.

You have to buy them both, play Empire vs Ubermensch.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

^^^^A taller front sight is available for the k98. It will eliminate the 18" hold under without spoiling the lines.