bimmerland
Member
OK... Last question... Kahr weighs 9.97oz and Sig weighs 15oz. Which one would you pick for the lightest recoil. That's all I ask of you.
Thanks
Thanks
Kahr P380 VS Sig P238
- Thread starter bimmerland
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dogtown tom
Member
It's not as much an opinion as it is a fact.
Same cartridge, same operating system (locked breech) and being heavier and larger means the Sig238 will have less felt recoil.
Edited to add:
I have a Colt Mustang (the Sig 238 is a copy) and Government Model .380's.......love them. But given a choice between a Kahr P380 I'll take the Kahr any day. The Sig 238 is just too big for a micro .380.........it's larger/heavier/fatter than the P380 and pretty much identical in size/weight to the Kahr PM9 (a 9mm).
9mmepiphany nails it regarding the design flaws of the Mustang/Sig 238. Which is a shame. They LOOK like cute little 1911's but aren't.
Same cartridge, same operating system (locked breech) and being heavier and larger means the Sig238 will have less felt recoil.
Edited to add:
I have a Colt Mustang (the Sig 238 is a copy) and Government Model .380's.......love them. But given a choice between a Kahr P380 I'll take the Kahr any day. The Sig 238 is just too big for a micro .380.........it's larger/heavier/fatter than the P380 and pretty much identical in size/weight to the Kahr PM9 (a 9mm).
9mmepiphany nails it regarding the design flaws of the Mustang/Sig 238. Which is a shame. They LOOK like cute little 1911's but aren't.
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bimmerland
Member
@dogtown tom - thank you for an honest answer. I was very disappointed in comments made by handgunworld.com on their comparison. In Feb they liked the P238 then made a turn around in April. I just don't like waffling from so called experts.
LightningMan
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I also have both, and the differance in felt recoil is small, but does favor the Sig P238. FWIW I carry the Kahr P380 nearly 100% of the time and when wearing a bit more clothing the Kahr PM9 is my primary and the P380 becomes a backup, but seldom carry my Sig P238. LM
bimmerland
Member
@LightningMan - thanks
The addition weight of the 238 dampen muzzle flip...which is what you perceive as recoil. The Kahr counters it's lessor weight by sitting lower in your hand...due to it's patented lower mounting of the barrel. It's lower bore axis, causes the muzzle to flip less than a comparably weighted pistol.
bimmerland
Member
@9mmepiphany - great advice.. now it helps me with my decision..thanks
If reliability will weigh into your decision...
I have a friend who has been referred to by Michael Bane (Outdoor Channel) as God's own gunsmith, who has been smithing and shooting handguns competitively (including for the H&K and Sig Sauer Pistol teams) for 40 years. His take on the 238 is that he won't work on them, because he guarantees his work for life and his advice when folks ask about them is, "there are a lot of other really nice .380s available (he is very polite). He will say the the 238 has a functional track record, in it's 3 previous lives (FI, Excam, Colt), which has not been comforting. Take it for what it is worth to you
I have a friend who has been referred to by Michael Bane (Outdoor Channel) as God's own gunsmith, who has been smithing and shooting handguns competitively (including for the H&K and Sig Sauer Pistol teams) for 40 years. His take on the 238 is that he won't work on them, because he guarantees his work for life and his advice when folks ask about them is, "there are a lot of other really nice .380s available (he is very polite). He will say the the 238 has a functional track record, in it's 3 previous lives (FI, Excam, Colt), which has not been comforting. Take it for what it is worth to you
71Commander
Member
Judge for yourself.
bimmerland
Member
@71Commander - Thanks for the pics. What am I judging? Recoil, Reliability, CS, Fit, Finish, Accuracy? If I am going to make a decision I need more than pictures to sway me. Looks are not the major factor in my decision. Looks don't save me in a SD situation.
71Commander
Member
Size.
As to reliability, the Sig will digest any and all ammo without problems. On the other hand, the Kahr only likes ammo with Federal primers. I've sent it back to Kahr two times. I talked to the CS rep and was told that some of the P380 don't like certain brands of ammo. Fortunately I reload.
As to reliability, the Sig will digest any and all ammo without problems. On the other hand, the Kahr only likes ammo with Federal primers. I've sent it back to Kahr two times. I talked to the CS rep and was told that some of the P380 don't like certain brands of ammo. Fortunately I reload.
What design flaw in the P238? If you take the time to read through the threads related to the P238 you are going to find that most P238 owners love the pistol and have little or no problems with them since the redesigned recoil spring became available.
The P380 is a little smaller and it is lighter and if that is what you want then go for it, but if you want less felt recoil and a 1911 style trigger the P238 is the way to go.
Considering the small number of P380 that have been sold they have had their problems just like the rest of the early micros have had.
The P380 is a little smaller and it is lighter and if that is what you want then go for it, but if you want less felt recoil and a 1911 style trigger the P238 is the way to go.
Considering the small number of P380 that have been sold they have had their problems just like the rest of the early micros have had.
bimmerland
Member
@kokapelli +1 on the Sig P238.
Just got back from the range and put 150 rnds thru it with no issues at all!!! Also bought a second mag which was a colt mustang mag modified the front corner and it performed flawlessly even slide opening after last round every time!!!
An old fart like me cannot stand major recoil and this thing was a kitty cat!!!
Take down is easy and laser took about 15 shots to zero in but after that it never moved for the rest of the time. It does get a little dirty over then lens but a simple swipe of the cloth fixed that. It does not have a pulse setting but that does not bother me. Uses off the shelf batteries (CR1/3N lithium) that you can get for about $3.00 or less if you buy 10 on ebay. Laser must have been on for over an hour today and still has a strong beam.
All in all a fun gun that is not bad for SD.
YMMV
Just got back from the range and put 150 rnds thru it with no issues at all!!! Also bought a second mag which was a colt mustang mag modified the front corner and it performed flawlessly even slide opening after last round every time!!!
An old fart like me cannot stand major recoil and this thing was a kitty cat!!!
Take down is easy and laser took about 15 shots to zero in but after that it never moved for the rest of the time. It does get a little dirty over then lens but a simple swipe of the cloth fixed that. It does not have a pulse setting but that does not bother me. Uses off the shelf batteries (CR1/3N lithium) that you can get for about $3.00 or less if you buy 10 on ebay. Laser must have been on for over an hour today and still has a strong beam.
All in all a fun gun that is not bad for SD.
YMMV
I had both and I was sick of the picky ammo of the Kahr. My Sig has 3,000 rounds through it. It's used in CCW classes as well as my summer carry. I log rounds at the classes, so that is not a guessed number. It runs and runs. I still think it's a matter of opinion! Love my Sig, and I have owned and shot both of the guns mentioned...
wally
Member
Not a chance. Mine doesn't work with Wolf at all. My Ruger LCP and S&W Bodyguard 380 both are fine with it.
The the size and weight of the P238 is such that I'd rather carry my Kahr PM40 which is too close in size and weight to settle for carrying only a .380.
The P238 is the best of the mouse guns at the range, no arguments, but its not left hand friendly and when I carry a mouse gun its often for left handed usage.
Recoil only matters at the range, the two folks I know who've fired shots in a SD situation both report never even hearing the gun fire -- let alone be aware of recoil!
Big_John1961
Member
I agree with other posters; I also have both pistols, and while the Sig may have slightly less felt recoil, the P380 is a very easy shooter as well. It's small, flat profile also lends it to easier pocket carry.
I dont know anything about the Kahr, but the sig I bought my ex chewed up the brass casings and jammed way too much. She got it in the divorce...... heh heh!
when it shot it shot good, just not even close to reliable enough for my standards.
when it shot it shot good, just not even close to reliable enough for my standards.
safebustr
Member
Have the 238 and now over 500 down the pipe with no problems, is it heavy-yes does it work-yes, do I trust it-yes.
Do I carry it every day, no, but I did, am now trying out a LCP for EDC.
I will let you know but for now looks like I will be going back to the 238 because I like the feel of it better.
Do I carry it every day, no, but I did, am now trying out a LCP for EDC.
I will let you know but for now looks like I will be going back to the 238 because I like the feel of it better.
i loves my gun
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ive had the hots for the 238, but with all this talk about the colt and other relatives having had there problems, has anyone ever had problems with there sig? maybe sig got the drawings and fixed the problem..the man himself might not know that answer..
bimmerland
Member
@i loves my gun - take a look at my post today #15. Sig was awesome.
The problem with early 238s was that they used the original design and the recol springs were battering themselves to death...the recoil spring tunnel wasn't long enough and the slide was too light for the amount of travel available...and causing feed problems when the spring was outside it's operating window (as little as 300 rounds).
Sig started making changes to the springs installed to lengthen their lives...however there was nothing that can be done about the slide velocity unless they make it heavier (read wider)
Even with the new springs, their operating window is still pretty small. Your choice is to not shoot it much...and hope it will work when you might need it...or stock up on springs and change them well before their expected useful life is up.
Granted, many folks will never put more than a box of cartridges through their .380 based on the cost alone (that is why I usually recommend a 9mm)...but wouldn't it give more peace of mind to start with a platform that is based on a more optimized design?
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