Kalifornistan Assault Weapons Transfers

[gt_down_hill]

As you know, AR-15's are banned in CA. I got mine about a year before the ban went into effect. My dad thought it would be a cool high school graduation present for my brother, so he purchased one at the same time and stuck it away, planning on giving it to him when he turned 18 and transferring it then. In CA, intra-family transfers don't require the normal FFL bull????, you just fill out an operation of law form and submit it to CA DOJ along with a $19 fee, and they send you a form certifiying the transfer and new ownership of the gun.

So my dad has this rifle stuck away in the safe, intending to give it as a gift when my brother turns 18. Well, the ban went into effect, and my dad had to register the AR as an assault weapon with the CA DOJ, sending them a thumbprint and signing some paperwork. CA law says a registered assault weapon can't be transferred to another owner in CA, and can't be brought back in the state if it's ever taken out. It says that the weapons can't be given away or sold in the event of a death, which sucks because my father had willed his rather extensive gun collection to me and my brother. There's some really cool stuff in there that will just be confiscated when he dies.

Here's the really crappy part. My brother didn't turn 18 until 3 weeks after the ban had gone into effect, which presumably means my dad can't transfer the rifle to him.

It really sucks that my brother got screwed out of an awesome graduation present because he missed some arbitrary date by 3 weeks. My dad spent over $3000 on a tricked out AR, and now it sits in a ????ing safe. You should've seen the look on my brothers face when he found out he couldn't have his graduation present and would never be able to own an AR in CA. My dad spent a a long time saving for that rifle, and purcahsed a gun that was way beyond his means to reward my brother for getting into an awesome college and being a kickass student. God damn I hate California.

Is there any way around this, any exception in the laws for gifts or inter-family transfers?

 

[DeseoUnTaco]

Yes, there is a way around this. Your brother is now 18, right? Get him to register to vote and make him vote yes on Prop 77, the redistricting proposition. As the law stands, the only possible way you could transfer the AR-15 is to have a gunsmith permenantly pin in a 10-round mag and then have the CA DoJ evaluate it and determine that it is no longer an evil assault weapon. That's it. Otherwise it is non-transferable, and upon the death of the owner, the gun must be taken out of the state or confiscated. That's all. There's nothing else.

The only way you're going to be able to transfer it in CA is if the ban can be removed and the only way that is going to happen is if we redistrict using Prop 77.

 

[Don of Kalifornia]

I addition to your dad's name, you should have registered it in your brother's name too..however now I think it's too late, you might want to contact the DOJ on this one though

 

[Matthew748]

I am not trying to get anyone in trouble, but would it be possible for your brother to “borrow” the rifle from your father on a long term basis? If that is not an option, maybe your father could trade it in for a CA legal M1A, those are nice rifles. I believe that the only thing that differentiates them from regular M1As is presence of a muzzle brake instead of a flash suppressor.

 

[beerslurpy]

Move out of the state or settle in for a long uphill battle to restore gun rights in CA. I left for mostly economic reasons, but the guns have become "yet another reason" to not move back.

 

[Oldtimer]

Supposedly, there is some sort of "grass roots" organization that is trying to get the California State "assault weapons law" repealed. I just recently heard about it, but don't know anything beyond that. They may try to put it together as a ballot measure, which means that they'd need to gather enough signatures for it to be qualified.
Heck, I'd donate some money AND gather signatures!

Also, there are numerous Californians who have their "evil" guns stored in adjoining states. There are supposedly several gun-related businesses that cater to Californians by offering them relatively inexpensive storage lockers within secured buildings. I haven't looked into that aspect yet, but maybe someone else has (?)

 

[saltydog]

Seem's like the only choice you have now is how much better you like your dad's gun collection over living in California. Sorry to hear about your delema.

 

[R.H. Lee]

It's really a private matter for your family to handle. Are you really going to allow the state to determine what happens with your private property?

 

[gt_down_hill]

It's really a private matter for your family to handle. Are you really going to allow the state to determine what happens with your private property?

I'd like to say no, but the reality in CA is a little different. If my brother ever wants to shoot the rifle in public, it really has to be legal. My AR is registered and legal, and I've had my paperwork inspected several times by BLM rangers, national forest rangers, LEO's at the range, etc.

With CA being the way it is now, someone WILL check your paperwork eventually. AR-15 with detachable 30 rounders raises a lot of eyebrows. I suppose he could just take the rifle, but what good does it do stored in a safe and never used?

We're both stuck in CA at least until we finish university. I hate this state.

 

[El Rojo]

Well if your brother moves out of state, your father can "sell" it to him once he leaves. If you are concerned that your father might die soon (which in all honesty, none of us are guaranteed any more time than right now), look into having the rifle willed to someone out of state. I am thinking that it is perfectly legal for him to leave it to someone out of state when he passes away. At least this way it doesn't revert back to the State, which would be a crime in itself. If you don't have any family out of state, make a thread asking if anyone would be trust worthy enough to hold onto your dad's rifle if he suddenly dies until one of you kids can get it back or the laws change. I have been hanging out here for a long time and I can think of several THR members that I would trust to hold onto a gun for me or my relatives and to keep their word and give it back.

Get political! It is up to us to turn this state around. Prop 77 is a good way to at least start. When the California Teacher's Association sent me a flyer saying to vote no on it, I knew that I had to vote yes!

 

[armoredman]

I am sorry - lots of room right across the border in Free AZ.

 

[R.H. Lee]

OK. If you're determined to do everything 'by the book' here's a suggestion. Have your parents set up a living trust. That way, when they pass away, you and your brother won't have to go through probate. You'll save money and time, not to mention privacy. As part of the trust, and while your father is alive, transfer possession of the firearms to a trustee; maybe an attorney in Arizona, Nevada, or Texas. Pay him a fee to keep them until you or your brother move out of state at which time he'll transfer ownership to you according to the terms of the agreement.

 

[Shalako]

Since your preference to keep the rifle is probably not going to work out, how about taking it out of state and selling it. The money recieved could go into a tricked out M1a. I know that sucks but your father's good intention could still be preserved that way.

 

[pbhome71]

As part of the trust, and while your father is alive, transfer possession of the firearms to a trustee;

How does that work? If you don't mind, can you elaborate? Does people need to go to DOJ and file paperwork?

 

[billwiese]

Your dad should've filed as joint ownership during registration period (if while you were all in same household - upon his death or not wanting to shoot it anymore, he could relinquish his share and it's yours).

Even if you could inherit that rifle, you cannot inherit hicap mags in CA after 1/1/2000. So you'd still be restricted to 10rds.

Calif assault weapons cannot be transferred or inherited within CA - the only party in CA that can legally accept one is an FFL that also holds a Calif AW permit. Such guns can also be held temporarily (for up to 30? 60? 90? days, I think the latter) by attorney during probate. BTW, shipping AWs to/from CA must involve a CA FFL w/AW permit also. You are allowed to take your own AW in & out of state, however, for travel. [If you change residency out of state and come back in there may be a problem. This is unclear, because nothing in the law specifies that a registration gets cancelled.]

You'd have to become a resident of another state and take possession of it outside CA, have an FFL hold it in escrow for you, etc.

[There MAY be a chance that - since it would (morally) be your rifle, you just can't take possession of it in CA - that you could just accept it out of state and keep it there without going thru FFL. But I dunno if this is a legal transfer since CA _defines_ that you cannot inherit it, so Federally ATF might wanna see you be a resident of the state where you can accept it. This is murky stuff...]

BTW, DeseoUnTaco's advice about pinning/affixing a 10rd mag is incorrect for AR15 and AK series rifles.

This fixed mag conversion is only for Type III assault weapons, those that are defined by 'evil features' - rifles such as generic FAL clones (but not FN-FALs), M1As with flash hiders, etc.

Type I assault weapons are the original 52? 54? Roberti-Roos specifically named guns, and Type II are the AR and AK "series" weapons. These Type I & II AWs are inherently AWs - even at the receiver level - regardless of attachment or removal of evil features like pistol grips, folding stocks, etc.

Affixing a fixed 10rd mag to an AR15 in a manner akin to the "CaliFALs" sold by DSA will not make an AR series rifle not an assault weapon.

Calif-legal AR-like receivers like FAB10s, Vulcans, GB Sales' California conversions are not considered AR class AWs and were all approved by Cal DOJ as non-AWs due to permanent magwell modifications.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

 

[billwiese]

How does that work? If you don't mind, can you elaborate? Does people need to go to DOJ and file paperwork?

Remember that you have to observe not only CA law, but Federal law too.

You can't just go giving guns across state lines. An FFL outside CA would likely have to accept it before it goes to trustee...


Bill Wiese
San Jose

 

[Gary H]

The ban was designed to get the gun out of state, or melted down. Your brother can't legally get around this without moving out of state and never moving back.

 

[R.H. Lee]

How does that work? If you don't mind, can you elaborate? Does people need to go to DOJ and file paperwork?

AFAIK, there is no law that says the owner of a firearm must be in possession of it. Even if California law forbids transfer of the firearm to the trust (leaving your father as the legal owner), no laws says that an attorney in AZ or NV can't have possession of the gun, and transfer it to you when you are no longer a CA resident.

 

[Standing Wolf]

I don't miss the temperate climate and beaches as much as I used to.

 

[artherd]

I am not trying to get anyone in trouble, but would it be possible for your brother to “borrow” the rifle from your father on a long term basis? If that is not an option, maybe your father could trade it in for a CA legal M1A, those are nice rifles. I believe that the only thing that differentiates them from regular M1As is presence of a muzzle brake instead of a flash suppressor.

No, the lending of an AW is prohibited unless the Registered Owner reamins in the "Immediate Vicinity."

 

[artherd]

Bill, see my post on calguns.net on this matter. There is some precedent for a welded-magwel conversion EVEN ON NAMED RECEIVERS (eg Evans Bushmaster XM-15s with welded mag-well.) Then send the exampliar to the CA DOJ for examination and determination that it is no longer an assault weapon. THEN you must get the registration nullified, and finally your brother could posess it (in neutered fixed-10round mag mode.)

Also, if he was not yet 18 as of the registration deadline, could he have even been on the reg paperwork? Can a minor ever be a registered owner of an Assault Weapon?

Your dad should've filed as joint ownership during registration period (if while you were all in same household - upon his death or not wanting to shoot it anymore, he could relinquish his share and it's yours).BTW, DeseoUnTaco's advice about pinning/affixing a 10rd mag is incorrect for AR15 and AK series rifles.

This fixed mag conversion is only for Type III assault weapons, those that are defined by 'evil features' - rifles such as generic FAL clones (but not FN-FALs), M1As with flash hiders, etc.

Type I assault weapons are the original 52? 54? Roberti-Roos specifically named guns, and Type II are the AR and AK "series" weapons. These Type I & II AWs are inherently AWs - even at the receiver level - regardless of attachment or removal of evil features like pistol grips, folding stocks, etc.

Affixing a fixed 10rd mag to an AR15 in a manner akin to the "CaliFALs" sold by DSA will not make an AR series rifle not an assault weapon.

Calif-legal AR-like receivers like FAB10s, Vulcans, GB Sales' California conversions are not considered AR class AWs and were all approved by Cal DOJ as non-AWs due to permanent magwell modifications.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

 

[El Rojo]

Are you sure that he can't send the AW out of state to a FFL dealer himself? My understanding is to send the gun out of state, you simply have to send it to a dealer. It is lawful for a Joe Schmoe to send the gun, but an FFL must receive it. I don't see how the State of California can mandate you send it through an AW registered FFL if it is perfectly legal for the receiving FFL to receive it, nor would it make any sense since the AW FFL is just going to log it in the bound book and not file any paperwork on it because they are transfering it to a dealer out of state.

 

[Pilgrim]

Somewhere in the bowels of the Attorney General's office there is a piece of paper that says I have a registered FNC in the PDRK. I suppose it will be a real bummer for the current residents of my old house when the state comes looking for it. Or better yet, they come looking for my ex-PMS since she is a registered co-owner and she still lives in the PDRK.

Pilgrim

 

[PrimalScream]

God how I miss the Peoples Communist Republic of California. I had to move 14 AW's outta of that dang place and wait to move out state to get them back.

Thats disappointing to hear about your brothers gun. The only real solution I can suggest is move out of state......

 

[boofus]

Move out of that cesspool.

In TX AZ and NV a 'registered assault rifle' means a machinegun.