Question the California AR15 owners

[Spreadfire Arms]

i have a Bushmaster XM15-E2S i personally own in California which was registered in 2000 with California DOJ as an assault weapon. it is in my safe in California.

can i sell or otherwise transfer this weapon to another individual, meaning, can someone else buy it from me (a California resident who goes through the CA DROS, etc at a CA FFL dealer) or can i give it as a gift to someone in CA? or does the law only state i can sell it to someone out of state?

also, this weapon is post-94. i think CA mimicked the federal law so this must be in "neutered" condition, correct? meaning no flash suppressor or bayonet lug? or can i now add them on since the federal ban sunseted, or does CA law make it still illegal?

thanks in advance.

 

[dasmi]

You cannot transfer, sell, loan, give, or let anyone in California look at it, sorry.
I believe you can transfer it out of state, though.

 

[FNFiveSeven]

or can i now add them on since the federal ban sunseted, or does CA law make it still illegal?

There's nothing in CA law that says you can't add a bayonet lug, flash suppressors, or collapsing stocks to legally registered CA assault weapons. The DOJ may not like it, but it's absolutely legal.


BTW, while the law was a near copy of the federal ban, bayonet lugs were removed, you can build new rifles with bayonet lugs today in CA (e.g. M1A), but no flash suppressors, pistol grips, collapsing stocks, and my personal favorite, no grenade launchers.

 

[chink]

Everyone has covered the important stuff. You cannot let anyone in California breathe on it anymore. But you can add whatever you want to it know, because its now an assault weapon and now that there is no federal law barring any of that stuff have fun with it.

As for the grenade launcher, i think they were using that to limit certain flash suppressor/muzzle break. If I remember correctly, there were some grenade type things that mount to the certain type of flash suppressor/muzzle break thing and used a special type of round to fire. But I have been known to remember wrong

 

[javafiend]

but no flash suppressors, pistol grips, collapsing stocks, and my personal favorite, no grenade launchers

No flare launchers, also.

OK to have a rifle.
OK to hve a flare launcher.
Install FL onto a rifle = a crime "against the peace and dignity of the state."

 

[billwiese]

Hi Steve...

I have a Bushmaster XM15-E2S i personally own in California which was registered in 2000 with California DOJ as an assault weapon. it is in my safe in California.

Good! BTW, you can actually bring it in & out of state. Make sure your hicaps are ones you've had in CA before 1/1/2000 - can't bring in any new hicaps. (Difficult to prove, I know, but just for commentary's sake.)

Do keep your registration papers (copies) handy. If you're now resident of another state they might conceivably have a hard time pulling you up - though no law in CA kills AW regs when you cancel Calif DL/ID.

Can i sell or otherwise transfer this weapon to another individual, meaning, can someone else buy it from me (a California resident who goes through the CA DROS, etc at a CA FFL dealer) or can i give it as a gift to someone in CA? or does the law only state i can sell it to someone out of state?

A Calif resident CANNOT buy it from you. No one here has been able to buy/sell/trade/gift/inherit/transfer, etc. any AW in CA since 2000. Hicap mags are allowed if you had 'em before 1/1/2000. No further importation or trading is allowed. The only person in CA who can buy your AW is a CA FFL dealer also holding a CA Assault Wpns permit; a regular FFL isn't good enough.

You cannot ship an AW to/from CA without going thru an FFL that holds a special Calif AW dealer's permit. [Similar but separate laws, registrations, dealer permits also apply for 50BMG rifles in CA now.] You may indeed personally transport it yourself outside CA and sell it to another party via an FFL in that state. (If you are an FFL, as I believe you are, then you know these rules.

...this weapon is post-94. i think CA mimicked the federal law so this must be in "neutered" condition, correct? meaning no flash suppressor or bayonet lug? or can i now add them on since the federal ban sunseted, or does CA law make it still illegal?

Pre- vs. post-'94 feature issues are now federally irrelevant, as you know.
There is no minimum or maximum amount of 'evilness' for a legally registered CA assault weapon. Once it's reg'd, it can have any or all evil features. Some background: CA AW law differs somewhat from orig. 1994 Federal law. It has no ban on bayonet lugs; flash supressors on any detachable mag semiauto rifle make it an assault weapon. (This is why M1As sold in CA have muzzle brakes.)

Since your gun's already an assault weapon by - by specific type/name (it's a Type II assault weapon on Ca DOJ's Roster of AR15 and AK Series Assault Weapons) and by registration, there's no minimum or maximum amount of 'evil features'. Add or remove parts galore; many CA AW owners put folder/collapsing stocks on their ARs when the Fed AW ban sunset 9/13/04.


Bill Wiese
San Jose







thanks in advance.

 

[El Rojo]

You cannot ship an AW to/from CA without going thru an FFL that holds a special Calif AW dealer's permit. [Similar but separate laws, registrations, dealer permits also apply for 50BMG rifles in CA now.] You may indeed personally transport it yourself outside CA and sell it to another party via an FFL in that state. (If you are an FFL, as I believe you are, then you know these rules.

Bill, answer me this. How does a CA AW dealer get their AWs into the state? How do they send them out of the state? Do they travel to the state line and get the weapon because they can't hand it to a common carrier as they would be breaking the law? Sorry Bill, but the DOJ specifically said you can sell the firearm out of state just like normal firearms. I have the e-mail on file if you want to read it. In fact let me post it again for you.

Mr. Rojo,

Pursuant to Title 18, U.S.C. 922, a person may transfer a firearm to a licensee in any state. It does not need to be sent from an FFL, only to an FFL. In California, the only restrictions are on receiving or importing assault weapons into the state, which must be done at specially permitted FFLs.

If you have further questions regarding this issue, please contact us at (916) 263-4887 or visit our website at www.ag.ca.gov/firearms.


Jeff Booth
Department of Justice
Firearms Division

You can sell it to someone out of state and you can do it yourself directly. You do not have to give it to an AW FFL and have them sell it out of state. You do not have to take it to the state line yourself. Bill will probably post a link to the penal code section stating that you have to receive it back into the state from an authorized gunsmith through an AW FFL, but that has nothing to do with you exporting it out of the state, as Mr. Booth from the CA DOJ states above.

Just keep the gun here. Get it willed out of state through a probate. Someday we might be allowed to have them again and until we do, some PRK residents have to feel like a free man by having an Evil Black Rifle.

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

what a pain in the ass. i suppose the only reason to keep it is so when i go back to Kali i can actually have an AR15.

ugh.

 

[billwiese]

Rojo...

I guess I'm not getting where your having a problem with what I've said. And perhaps you are unclear on what the DOJ sent you. The DOJ letter said, "In California, the only restrictions are on receiving or importing assault weapons into the state, which must be done at specially permitted FFLs.

That's a very casual form of wording. It should've been written better.

If you have an AW, it legally only moves in or out of state, if shipped, via a CA FFL holding an AW permit. Really both directions should be covered. If you actually ask them specifically, "I have a CA AW and have to send it outside of CA to an FFL", a DOJ person with-the-right-answer should actually state "it must first go out thru a CA FFL w/an AW dealer permit". You may be getting an answer from a desk clerk/field agent who does not word things carefully.

Really, the wording you have should be interpreted broadly, such that "Have an AW you need to ship out or receive? It goes thru a FFL holding a CA AW permit." The directionality doesn't matter, nor the purpose of sending it out (repair? sale? gunsmithing? etc.) You need to specifically re-ask the question specifically to a person-with-knowledge, as DOJ frontline folks don't always know AW details - and they're LOTS better than BATF representatives. [Remember, these are the same Cal DOJ field agents arrested/raided folks at CA gunshows for having HK rifle lowers/triggerguards - they didn't know they weren't receivers and were legal to possess.] Again, this is kinda like asking a cop about criminal law or an IRS desk clerk about tax law - they live in vague generalities and don't have the thinking capacities of lawyers and may live in a league of misinformation.] I would suggest contacting DOJ's Asst Dir, Tim Riegert, or Allison Merilees, Deputy AG/Firearms - please quote the FAQ example I've listed below as well as the way I posed the question above.

The CA DOJ website has been redesigned and I can't find lotsa stuff anymore, including complete regulatory chain, but one thing that does indicate this is the CA DOJ AW FAQ, which has a casually written Q&A (underline is mine):

Q11. Can I take a registered assault weapon to a gunsmith for repairs?

A11. Yes. However, you cannot leave it with the gunsmith unless he or she holds a California Assault Weapons permit. Otherwise, you must remain with the firearm while it is being repaired. If the assault weapon must be shipped to the manufacturer for repairs, a firearms dealer with an assault weapons permit must handle the shipping. [/b]

For this Q&A example above, the terms 'manufacturer' and 'repair' are mere illustrative details - broadly, substitute terms "FFL dealer/gunsmith" for the former, and "sale, repair, modification" for the latter.

They just don't write "one-sided" regulations; regs like this just don't work in a half-way/one-sided fashion and are not underrestrictive. The intent was to limit the interface for CA AW owners, while in CA, to FFLs w/CA AW permittees only.

Also, Evan's Gunsmithing is a licensed CA FFL AW permittee. (These guys do legal conversions of Colt & Bushmaster AR-type rifles into neutered fixed-mag rifles a la FAB10s/Vulcans; they are probably the most CA AW law-aware organization around) They have some info at http://www.egsw.com/gunsmith/ar_repair.htm which includes this text (underline & bold are mine):

If you leave your gun with any gunsmith not licensed by the state, you could lose your gun for a long time, or worse.

As per California Department of Justice regulations, you cannot leave your assault weapon with any gunsmith unless he/she holds a California Assault Weapons permit. Additionally, if the assault weapon must be shipped to the manufacturer for repairs, a firearms dealer with an assault weapons permit must handle the shipping. If you wish to ship the assault weapon to anyone, a firearms dealer with an assault weapons permit must handle the shipping.

Also they wrote:

If you leave your AR with a friend to fix, you can both be arrested. If you leave your AR with a gunsmith that is not licensed for assault weapons, you can both be arrested. If you ship your AR on your own... well, you get the idea. Contact us now!

These guys are sharp and would not err in this. Again, have an AW? Need to ship it or receive it back?? Gotta go thru CA FFL w/AW permit.

Bill, answer me this. How does a CA AW dealer get their AWs into the state? How do they send them out of the state?

Well, they are of course licensed AW dealer permittees. They can, in their normal course of operation:
- receive AWs directly from anyone outside CA;
- receive AWs from any other CA FFL w/a CA AW permit;
- send AWs to any FFL outside CA;
- send AWs to any other CA FFL w/CA AW permit;


Bottom line: if you have an AW in CA you need to ship outside CA, it should run thru a CA FFL w/AW permit, otherwise you carry it out yourself.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

the more i think about this the more confused i get

basically the advantage i have with this rifle is that i can take it back and forth between California and say, Texas. so if i want to leave the state with it temporarily, and then come back with it, then i can do so. but i have to leave the magazines there in CA? or can the hi cap mags go back and forth too?

also i take it you can't swap, trade, deliver, or otherwise provide already grandfathered hi-cap mags between persons. you probably need some silly permit if you are a dealer to engage in that business and probably only dealers can do that anyway. so two buddies that both legally own AR15's and go to the range have to make sure they don't mix up each other's mags and mistakenly take the other guy's home? man this is confusing.

oh well. i suppose there is some sort of added value to that rifle since it's CA legal, at least for me.

but i can add a flash suppressor, bayonet lug, and the collapsible stock now? just to make 100% sure i don't get in a beef with the gun grabbers in CA......since i plan to make the changes to that rifle next time i get back there.

 

[billwiese]

...the advantage i have with this rifle is that i can take it back and forth between California and say, Texas. so if i want to leave the state with it temporarily, and then come back with it, then i can do so.

Yup. Nice you now/still have that option....

but i have to leave the magazines there in CA? or can the hi cap mags go back and forth too?

The only mags that should be moved into/out of Calif are the ones you've owned/possessed within CA on/before 12/31/1999. Now, hicap mag offenses are difficult to prove (no serial #, etc); since these are paired with your legal, registered AW there really shouldn't be problems. (As opposed to flying from TX to CA with a bag of hicap mags without a gun, which might be harder to explain.)

I fly in & out of CA to Oregon & Idaho w/my ARs, FAL, various handguns and all sorts of hicaps at least once a year.

Keep your orig CA AW registration papers in safe, safety deposit box, etc. NEVER give your original to cop. Not required, but carry a copy of it with rifle - a 1/2-size reduction stored in buttstock works nicely. I esp suggest this for you since I dunno if you still have CA drivers lic. or ID card and that conceivably might screw up recordkeeping (but not AW's legal status); cops should be able to call in to DOJ AFIS with your AW reg# and/or serial# and find out what's what.

i take it you can't swap, trade, deliver, or otherwise provide already grandfathered hi-cap mags between persons.

Correctamundo! Whatever hicaos you had, within CA, on 12/31/1999, are what you can keep & use. You are of course free to take 'em out of state and sell them outside CA, or take them out of state on a trip and return them back to CA.

you probably need some silly permit if you are a dealer to engage in that business and probably only dealers can do that anyway.

Correct again. This is fairly easy to get compared to AW permit; lotsa dealers seem to get hicap mag permits to buy used guns from folks. They can sell the hicaps outta state or to LEOs.

so two buddies that both legally own AR15's and go to the range have to make sure they don't mix up each other's mags and mistakenly take the other guy's home?

Yep. Put some marks on if you're really anal. I do think hicap mag issues are difficult to prosecute; existence of matching legally reg'd & owned AW alleviates should alleviate most law enforcment concerns about related hicaps.

oh well. i suppose there is some sort of added value to that rifle since it's CA legal, at least for me.

Yep. Even if I ever move from CA I will maintain my AW regs here - if anything, just to tick folks off.

...but i can add a flash suppressor, bayonet lug, and the collapsible stock now? just to make 100% sure i don't get in a beef with the gun grabbers in CA... since i plan to make the changes to that rifle next time i get back there.

Indeed you can. The rifle is already fully 'evil' by type/declaration. It gets no more or less evil w/the extra parts you mention (bbls shorter than 16" of course fall into NFA territory, and short-bbl rifles are also illegal in CA and fall into MG territory there too).

On 15 Sept 2004, I put on two collapsible stocks on my ARs and moved what was a Fed preban upper onto what was a Fed postban AR lower, and felt very good about it.

The only thing that's cared about in CA is that the AR is reg'd to you, and its S/N matches the reg paperwork. The other material on the reg form (caliber, bbl length, etc.) is supplementary information and does not restrict modding of your AR - if you're reg'd as a 16", chambered in 5.56mm, it's perfectly legal to change to a 20" 7.62x39 upper. (In fact many folks reg'd their ARs as an indeterminate caliber when this issue was still up in the air; many folks' ARs are reg'd in CA as caliber "8888", meaning multicaliber.

Do ensure that while in CA you transport your AR in a locked case and that it's unloaded and w/no ammo in its case. (Generally, looser CA long gun laws do not apply to AWs.) Trunk counts as a locked container (perhaps fuzziness if you had some kinda trunk pull-thru fold down seat gig.)

AWs must be transported between specific authorized destinations. No such thing as a "truck gun" for AWs in CA; you can't generally cruise around w/one unlike in a free state. Authorized AW destinations include your home, residences of friends you'd be visiting who've given you permission to bring your AW, gunsmith w/AW permit (gunsmith without AW permit if you are there with him continuously!), a shooting range where AW usage is allowed, travelling out of state, etc.

If you are stopped and queried about this somehow, be someplace on a path to one of these that you can reasonably support. If locked/unloaded and you have reg papers likely no further questions (depends on where you are). It _is_ legal to shoot legally registered/owned AWs in CA on BLM land - but prob not in state/fed parks and forests, not sure of those latter details.


Bill Wiese
San Jose