Kalifornistan Assault Weapons Transfers

[billwiese]

Hi, El Rojo...

Are you sure that he can't send the AW out of state to a FFL dealer himself? My understanding is to send the gun out of state, you simply have to send it to a dealer. It is lawful for a Joe Schmoe to send the gun, but an FFL must receive it. I don't see how the State of California can mandate you send it through an AW registered FFL if it is perfectly legal for the receiving FFL to receive it, nor would it make any sense since the AW FFL is just going to log it in the bound book and not file any paperwork on it because they are transfering it to a dealer out of state.

Yes, I am sure.

An FFL dealer in CA needs to also hold a CA Assault Weapons permit to handle/retain AWs (besides the permit, there's a whole host of storage requirements to boot) whenever the registered AW owner is not present, or to ship/accept them.

A CA FFL gunsmith without AW permit cannot work on your (legal, registered) AW when you are not there. So you need to either have a CA gunsmith w/CA AW permit, or stay in immediate proximity to your rifle while work's done by a regular FFL gunsmith and/or you carry it back & forth every morning/evening while work's done if it takes longer than one day.

Generally speaking (exceptions below) in order to SHIP a CA AW - or accept an AW being shipped back to you - an FFL holding a CA AW permit must be used. (Of course, if the other FFL is inside CA, he must have a CA AW permit as well.) However, you can carry your AW yourself (+ hicap mags) to and from California - I fly to Oregon & Idaho with ARs, FALs and hicaps yearly.

[And if your AW is unreg'd in CA you should blowtorch receiver. Penalties seem to have just increased for multiple unreg'd AW possession...]

Some more info & exceptions about these matters...

• For guns like ARs, problems, 'smithing, revisions, etc. are likely in the barreled upper area. The upper is not a gun and any smith can work on it, you can ship it to/from anywhere, etc. (AR lowers are simple to fix and all AR owners should know how to fix/manipulate them anyway!!!)
  
  
• For Type III 'by feature' AWs - which are defined by combinations of evil features and are not specifically-named guns on the original Roberti-Roos list of 50+ guns, nor are an AR or AK 'class' gun - enough evil features can be removed so that the gun is no longer an AW.
  
  Even though your Type III AW is legally registered as an AW (!!), removal of the 'evil features' allows it to be treated like a normal rifle w/respect to shipment, transportation, storage, etc. [This is from DOJ website info, and direct questioning of Cal DOJ Director Rossi & Asst Director Riegert at an NRA Members Council dinner a few months ago.] It would be sensible to have the separated evil features locked separately or conveyed separately during transit.
  
  For example, removing the pistol grip from a FAL clone (but not a named true FN FAL!!) renders it into a non-AW form. Separating the FAL clone upper and lower also accomplishes this: you can mail the FAL clone to, and receive it back from, an out-of-state FFL gunsmith separately in two more easily manageable boxes and it's entirely legal. [You should make sure IN WRITING that your outta state gunsmith does not directly send you a fully assembled AW. Make sure he either removes the pistol grip and sends it separately or removes or sends the halves separately.]
  
  Another example: M1A w/flash hider is an AW in CA. Remove the flash hider and any gunsmith can work on it, and you can ship it to/from just about anywhere.
  
  
• AR and AK 'class' guns are Type II AWs; along with the 50+ Type I original Roberti-Roos AWs, these guns are considered 'named AWs' and even the receiver alone is considered an assault weapon.

Bill Wiese
San Jose

 

[El Rojo]

Bill, you didn't address what I was saying. If I want to send my AW out of state, can I send it directly through the mail to another FFL? I think I am hearing you say that I would have to give it to a CA DOJ AW approved FFL and then have them send it out of state to a FFL. If I am sending it out never to return again, why would I have to send it through an CA DOJ AW approved FFL if it is perfectly legal for me to send firearms by mail as long as they go to an FFL? I don't think I am wrong, I thought the rule was you can send your firearms out of state as long as they go directly to a FFL or a FFL gunsmith.

I was aware that gunsmiths in this state cannot possess AWs unless they have the AW license or you are present and they don't keep it over night. I am aware that AWs cannot come into the state unless they go to a CA DOJ AW approved FFL (I just got my FFL and was wanting to do this until I saw the $300 some odd dollar price tag and the requirement to have approved customers who need them). I am saying if you wanted it to go out of state in your will or before you die, you simply should be able to send it to an out of state FFL where they will do the proper paperwork to put it back into a free American's hands.

 

[billwiese]

El Rojo...

Bill, you didn't address what I was saying. If I want to send my AW out of state, can I send it directly through the mail to another FFL? I think I am hearing you say that I would have to give it to a CA DOJ AW approved FFL and then have them send it out of state to a FFL.

I believe I did - perhaps I didn't say it strongly/clearly enough, so we'll do another cycle here...

Again, NO - you cannot mail your AW directly to an out-of-state FFL. You must take it to a CA FFL dealer also holding an AW permit. (Heck, I don't believe you can even ship it to a CA FFL w/AW permit, you gotta take it there!)

If I am sending it out never to return again, why would I have to send it through an CA DOJ AW approved FFL if it is perfectly legal for me to send firearms by mail as long as they go to an FFL?

Yes, it is perfectly legal under FEDERAL law to send firearms interstate to another FFL, inside or outside CA. Fed law doesn't know or care if it's an AW though Feds do like you to follow state laws. And it's perfectly legal under CALIFORNIA law to send non-assault weapons (i.e., handguns and long guns) to any FFL inside or outside CA as well.

"Never to return again" is irrelevant: Calif AW law & related DOJ regs don't specify anything about "terminal trips for AWs leaving CA never to return again". It just says that AWs must be shipped (meaning outgoing or incoming) thru a dealer also holding a CA AW permit.

There's no counting back & forth cycles. The folks who wrote the law and those forming regulations from the law would have had to go to extra trouble specifically codifying, "well, it's the gun's last trip heading out of CA so this time it doesn't have to go thru an AW dealer permittee." No such luck.

"Out of state" is somewhat irrelevant for Calif AWs, too. If it's gotta be shipped from, to, or even within CA, it's gotta run thru a CA FFL w/AW permit. (Within CA, both sender FFL and recipient FFL would need CA AW permits.)

I don't think I am wrong, I thought the rule was you can send your firearms out of state as long as they go directly to a FFL or a FFL gunsmith.

Again, that's Fed law. Generally you're right - you're only wrong for CA-defined assault weapons.

Again, you have 3 options for moving your (legal, registered) CA AW out of California:

• take your AW to a CA FFL who also holds CA AW permit and let him ship it to its destination (another FFL, or conceivably to your destination, prearranged care of someone else, say, at a hotel - "El Rojo Biggunner, c/o Luxury Resort, 1234 Las Vegas Blvd, Las Vegas, NV")
  
  
• render your Type III ('by feature') assault weapon into a non-assault weapon by removing sufficient evil features and (ideally) sending them separately. For example, remove the flash hider from an M1A, or split a FAL clone - but not true FN-FAL! - in two and mail separately.
  
  This does not work for original 54 Roberti-Roos weapons (Type I guns) or Type II AWs (AR15 and AK "series" weapons) - these guns are AWs down to receiver level.
  
  
• walk, drive or fly with the AW out of CA.

I was aware that gunsmiths in this state cannot possess AWs unless they have the AW license or you are present and they don't keep it over night.

Correctamundo!

I am aware that AWs cannot come into the state unless they go to a CA DOJ AW approved FFL (I just got my FFL and was wanting to do this until I saw the $300 some odd dollar price tag and the requirement to have approved customers who need them).

Correct again! Since DOJ will only give out end user AW permits to those who 'need them', the only other reason would/could be for acquisition of AWs for conversion to non-AWs (for example, GB Sales' welded-up Bushmaster and Colt rifles become non AWs when an AW dealer permittee fixes them permanently to become 'not an AR' in prearranged agreement w/Cal DOJ.)

I am saying if you wanted it to go out of state in your will or before you die, you simply should be able to send it to an out of state FFL where they will do the proper paperwork to put it back into a free American's hands.

Unfortunately "should" is nice, but it's not the law.

AWs entering or leaving CA via a shipment method, other than the reg'd owner carrying it with him, have to run thru an FFL also holding a CA AW dealer permit. No ifs ands or buts.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

 

[El Rojo]

Can you post the reg that states this? Thanks for walking me through it.

 

[billwiese]

It's supported by CPC 12285 and 12290 laws... I can't find DOJ Firearms codified regulations right now. But from Cal DOJ's AW FAQ at http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regagunfaqs.htm , they list this on item #11:
(underlining of relevant text is mine).

Q. Can I take a registered assault weapon to a gunsmith for repairs?

A. Yes. However, you cannot leave it with the gunsmith unless he or she holds a California Assault Weapons permit. Otherwise, you must remain with the firearm while it is being repaired. If the assault weapon must be shipped to the manufacturer for repairs, a firearms dealer with an assault weapons permit must handle the shipping.

Bill Wiese
San Jose

 

[El Rojo]

Actually Bill, the quote you give me is specific in that it is being sent out for repairs. That by definition means the weapon comes back into the state. If you read back through the rest of the FAQ, you will notice it says firearms that are bequeathed must be turned over to the state or removed from the state in 90 days. It says nothing about removing it from the state through an approved dealer, it just says removed from the state. I am going to go ahead and check out the Penal Code now and see if I can find some more info.

I struck out on the Penal Code so I am e-mailing the DOJ. Here is what I just sent them.

I am currently having an online debate about assault weapons. If a person wants to lawfully remove their registered assault weapon from the state, does the State of California require that person to transfer the weapon from a CA approved assault weapon dealer to a regular FFL out of state? Or can the registered owner send the assault weapon through the mail to a dealer like regular firearms as long as the firearm is sent to a confirmed FFL dealer? I looked through the penal code and the only references I found was that say for instance a person is bequeathed an asssault weapon, they have 90 days to remove it from the state. The Penal Code does not speicify how the assault weapon is removed, only that it be removed. Couldn't the firearm be sent to a FFL out of state directly from the estate or by a registered owner?

Thank you for your time.

El Rojo

 

[billwiese]

El Rojo,

The 'repair' discussed in the FAQ extract I gave you is just for sake of Q&A discussion; what we are discussing is not limited to repair, it's for any reason.
That was just the most common reason so it was used for easy informal Q&A discussion.

The underlying matter is that if the AW goes outside of your control within CA, it must go thru an FFL also holding a CA assault weapon permit. This is for any reason - repair, storage, etc. The fundamental underlying theme is that you can only use/convey AWs in a very limited fashion in CA.

Actually, the out-of-state issue is a little over-specific; regardless of whether the AW's destination is inside or outside CA, if a CA AW is to be shipped unaccompanied by you from CA, or received by you in CA (or both), it must go thru one or two CA AW permittees.

It appears you are looking for a specific exemption for AWs for their final trip outside CA. That special situation would have to be specifically codified and it simply ain't there. I am very curious why you'd think there'd be a special exemption for this special situation.

I don't have time to dig it up (I'd have to dig thru PC 1228x and maybe online Calif CRs besides PCs) but I absolutely know I am right - I dealt with this about a year ago.

BTW, don't expect an email response from DOJ. If you get one, you'll be lucky. And don't rely on it for real tech details on guns because the folks answering email are usu field agents (DOJ cops) or 'analysts' (desk clerks/phone operators) who don't understand the law. Best to send a written letter to DOJ Firearms.



Bill Wiese
San Jose

NB - Interestingly enough, the DOJ may be willingly supporting/advising certain CA AW owners to violate this - or may not (see below). You may have heard of the Walther P22 scandal, where a different gun was shipped to dealers than was approved by Cal DOJ & handgun test labs - as retail guns had a threaded bbl, which makes them assault weapons in CA. The DOJ has arranged notification of P22 owners that their guns are in violation of AW laws, and arranged for S&W/Walther to 'repair' the guns into a legal form - no threaded barrel. They are having the P22 owners send the guns to the factory, and have the guns returned directly to the owner.

Interestingly, CA law allows DOJ to grant AW permits to out of state FFLs. So if S&W/Walther got one of these, then this particular instance it'd be legal.

 

[billwiese]

El Rojo,

The 'repair' discussed in the FAQ extract I gave you is just for sake of Q&A discussion; what we are discussing is not limited to repair, it's for any reason.
That was just the most common reason so it was used for easy informal Q&A discussion.

The underlying matter is that if the AW goes outside of your control within CA, it must go thru an FFL also holding a CA assault weapon permit. This is for any reason - repair, storage, etc. The fundamental underlying theme is that you can only use/convey AWs in a very limited fashion within CA.

Actually, the out-of-state issue is a little over-specific; regardless of whether the AW's destination is inside or outside CA, if a CA AW is to be shipped unaccompanied by you from CA, or received by you in CA (or both), it must go thru one or two CA AW permittees.

It appears you are looking for a specific exemption for AWs for their final trip outside CA. That special situation would have to be specifically codified and it simply ain't there. I am very curious why you'd think there'd be a special exemption for this special situation.

I don't have time to dig it up (I'd have to dig thru PC 1228x and maybe online Calif CRs besides PCs) but I absolutely know I am right - I dealt with this about a year ago.

BTW, don't expect an email response from DOJ. If you get one, you'll be lucky. And don't rely on it for real tech details on guns because the folks answering email are usu field agents (DOJ cops) or 'analysts' (desk clerks/phone operators) who don't understand the law. Best to send a written letter to DOJ Firearms.



Bill Wiese
San Jose

NB - Interestingly enough, the DOJ may be willingly supporting/advising certain CA AW owners to violate this - or may not (see below). You may have heard of the Walther P22 scandal, where a different gun was shipped to dealers than was approved by Cal DOJ & handgun test labs - as retail guns had a threaded bbl, which makes them assault weapons in CA. The DOJ has arranged notification of P22 owners that their guns are in violation of AW laws, and arranged for S&W/Walther to 'repair' the guns into a legal form - no threaded barrel. They are having the P22 owners send the guns to the factory, and have the guns returned directly to the owner.

Interestingly, CA law allows DOJ to grant AW permits to out of state FFLs. So if S&W/Walther got one of these, then this particular instance it'd be legal.

 

[El Rojo]

I get you Bill. You are saying if you give the firearm to a shipper, they are then in possession of it and then both of you are liable for the violation. That makes sense.

BTW, don't expect an email response from DOJ. If you get one, you'll be lucky. And don't rely on it for real tech details on guns because the folks answering email are usu field agents (DOJ cops) or 'analysts' (desk clerks/phone operators) who don't understand the law. Best to send a written letter to DOJ Firearms.

However, here is the response I received from the DOJ via e-mail today (not to mention I talked to the guy on the phone today as well about another question related to my business - wierd coincidence.):

Mr. Rojo,

Pursuant to Title 18, U.S.C. 922, a person may transfer a firearm to a licensee in any state. It does not need to be sent from an FFL, only to an FFL. In California, the only restrictions are on receiving or importing assault weapons into the state, which must be done at specially permitted FFLs.

If you have further questions regarding this issue, please contact us at (916) 263-4887 or visit our website at www.ag.ca.gov/firearms.


Jeff Booth
Department of Justice
Firearms Division

I guess your caviat of he might just be a technocrat and he really doesn't know what he is talking about must be taken into consideration. However, the entire point of all these laws is to get the firearm out of the state. I would be willing to ship the firearm out of state to a FFL holder as the federal law says I can and the state law makes specific mention that once a registered owner dies, you have 90 days to get the firearm out of state. It does not say that the trust administrator will be prosecuted for moving the firearm out of state. Lastly, I received word from a PRK DOJ Firearms employee stating there was nothing prohibiting me from shipping the firearm out of state and I have it in writing.

I don't have time to dig it up (I'd have to dig thru PC 1228x and maybe online Calif CRs besides PCs) but I absolutely know I am right.