Kentucky abusing the NICS system?

[bikemutt]

I was reading through an NRA email update today and drilled into an story roughly titled "Record NICS Checks in 2011".

The statistical analysis included the highlighted statement below:

After averaging almost nine million checks annually through 1995, NICS checks rose to 10 million in 1996 and climbed steadily to 14.4 million in 2010. Between 2010 and 2011, NICS checks rose 14 percent to 16.4 million, their greatest annual increase since the program’s inception. If the monthly checks that Kentucky conducts on carry permit holders are excluded from the tally, NICS checks rose approximately 18 percent to approximately 14 million in 2011.

I'm sorry if this is old news and my emergence from under a rock is still in it's early stages, but why on earth would KY see fit to re-NICS carry permit holders monthly when no other state does (that I know of), and who the heck is paying for all this?

Seems to me that rather than implement a state-based system where arrests, convictions etc. would be cross-referenced against the permit list, they simply externalized that cost by dumping on the NICS system.

 

[Midwest]

I live in KY but do not have an CC permit (we call them CCDW). This makes no sense, the only thing I am aware of is that CCDW holders can bypass NICS but still have to do the 4473. I'd like to know more about this as I anticipate to go get the CCDW sometime this year.

 

[USAF_Vet]

That seems like a colossal waste of resources. I get doing a NICS check at the time the permit is issued, and even (although optional for CCW holders) doing a NICS check for every firearm purchase, but to do a monthly check on CCW holders when they AREN'T buying a gun? Waste of time and money.

 

[D94R]

NICS is not by-passable by CCDW/CCW/LTCF etc holders.

In some places, the cost of the backround check it waived, but the check itself is not wavered if buying from a FFL.

 

[Vandyatc]

I might be wrong, but I don't think they do a full check in KY for CCDW holders. I never pay that close of attention to the paperwork, but I know i hand them my CCDW and the standard form and I am out the door with my new gun in 5 minutes or so. I've bought from 4-5 different deals, so it's not jut one that does it that way.

 

[Hacker15E]

I don't see the problem if a state wants to run NICS checks on it's permit holders regularly.

I certainly don't see how it could be construed as an "abuse of the system".

 

[bikemutt]

NICS is not by-passable by CCDW/CCW/LTCF etc holders.

In some places, the cost of the backround check it waived, but the check itself is not wavered if buying from a FFL.

The point is not whether NICS checks may be performed when KY carry permit holders buy a gun, it's that the state of KY is running a monthly NICS check on every permit holder independent of any gun purchases. Presumably they would do this in order to discover permit holders who have become ineligible to redeem or receive firearms since the last monthly check, at that point it seems logical they would suspend the permit holders license and whatever else they can dream up.

Even if they use some version of eCheck this still places an additional burden on the NICS system, after all computer systems and networks are not free.

 

[bikemutt]

I don't see the problem if a state wants to run NICS checks on it's permit holders regularly.

I certainly don't see how it could be construed as an "abuse of the system".

I don't have a problem with it either as long as the state pays for the additional capacity NICS would need to add to the system for such checks. If they don't then they've simply externalized the cost to all the country's taxpayers, I consider that abusing the system.

 

[medalguy]

I saw recently that NICS checks were way up in December. The statistics indicated Kentucky had more checks than Texas which really puzzled me, since KY is a lot smaller and has a much smaller population. That just didn't make sense. However after reading this, it all falls into place now if they are running monthly checks. Seems to me to be a waste of a resource that's already stressed to the limit.

 

[gc70]

NICS is not by-passable by CCDW/CCW/LTCF etc holders.

In some places, the cost of the backround check it waived, but the check itself is not wavered if buying from a FFL.

Per ATF, some states' "permits qualify as alternatives to the background check requirements of the Brady law."

 

[D94R]

gc70, it says "alternative to background requirements"***, it does not state "required back round check alternative".



***It could mean that they accept the carry permit as a form of ID in place of a valid drivers license. It's very vague.

I live in Utah, one of the states it lists, I have a carry permit, and I still have to go through a check (done by Utah, not FBI). All my carry permit gets me is a free check.

The NICS check does as it implies. It does an instant check on your legality to purchase a firearm. Just because you (anyone) have had a carry permit for X amount of years, and it doesn't expire for a few more, doesn't mean you are still eligible to purchase a weapon or that your permit is still valid. You have to be verified in that instance.

Unless you can provide something otherwise stating specifically that a carry permit is a work around to the NICS check, I'd be checking the language more closely. If you do have something, I'd like to see it.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

John Lott had a piece advising researchers not to use NICS BG check numbers as a substitute for firearms purchase numbers for this very reason: some states are routinely running NICS BG checks on CCW holders to see if they are still eligible.

 

[dogtown tom]

D94R NICS is not by-passable by CCDW/CCW/LTCF etc holders.

In some places, the cost of the backround check it waived, but the check itself is not wavered if buying from a FFL.

Wrong.
Many state firearm permits are an exemption to the FBI NICS check. A Texas resident need only provide his Texas CHL to a Texas dealer, complete the 4473 and he walks out the door with his gun. No NICS needed.

Unless you can provide something otherwise stating specifically that a carry permit is a work around to the NICS check, I'd be checking the language more closely. If you do have something, I'd like to see it.

Form 4473, page 2, Question 23. Here's the map straight from NICS:

 

[gc70]

Unless you can provide something otherwise stating specifically that a carry permit is a work around to the NICS check, I'd be checking the language more closely. If you do have something, I'd like to see it.

ATF's 'permanent Brady letters' that list alternatives to NICS checks at listed here for each state.

For my state (North Carolina), the letter states "The North Carolina permit to purchase a handgun and the North Carolina concealed handgun permit qualified as alternatives to a background check under the interim provisions of Brady, and will continue to qualify as an alternative to the NICS check required by permanent Brady."

Even Utah concealed carry license holders are exempt from federal requirements for NICS checks. Your state's requirements that go beyond the federal requirements are a state issue.

 

[bikemutt]

WA is about to join the ranks of those states allowing carry permit holders exemption from NICS checks. A carry permit here is known as a CPL (concealed pistol license).

Recognizing that SHB 1923, signed by Governor Gregoire last year, requires successful passage of a NICS check as part of the CPL clearance process, the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) approved Washington as a NICS alternative state. This means that anyone who possesses a CPL issued after 22 July 2011 is exempt from a NICS check. Unfortunately, achieving full NICS Alternative status is a two-step process. Now that ATF has agreed to waive the federal requirement for a background check for "new" CPL holders, state law must be changed to exempt the state requirement for a similar background check. A draft bill to accomplish this is being circulated as I write this.

As an aside, I've been told by several FFLs that just because they won't have to run a NICS check doesn't mean they can't, or won't, it's still at the FFL's discretion, if they don't know the buyer, or smell tuna, they have the right to contact NICS.

 

[D94R]

So, aside from Tx, and maybe NC (gc70, you don't state whether NC allows you to just walk in, present permit, and buy, just that it's an alternative) what states do this?


This also spits in the eye of the point of a back round check. Not that I'm advocating them.

 

[bikemutt]

This also spits in the eye of the point of a back round check. Not that I'm advocating them.

I agree, on both counts. A carry permit here is good for 5 years. If someone were to become prohibited shortly after receiving one then in theory they could continue to purchase guns from dealers for years before the permit expired.

 

[Scimmia]

Iowa is another. I've bought numerous firearms just by presenting my permit, no NICS check. In fact FFLs NEVER run a NICS check for handgun purchases here. If you don't have a CCW permit, you're required to have a "Permit to Aquire" which is good for one year, the NICS check is ran when you get that permit.

 

[gc70]

gc70, you don't state whether NC allows you to just walk in, present permit, and buy, just that it's an alternative

Yes, you can walk in to your LGS in NC, put down your NC CHP or NC PPP, fill out a 4473 and walk our with a handgun - no NICS check required.

What states operate like this? Look at the ATF list of NICS alternatives that satisfy federal requirements. Then you only have to determine if states have their own unique state requirements. The NICS Participation Map in post #13 suggests that at least 13 states (in red) have additional state requirements, 7 more states (in blue and yellow) may have additional state requirements, and 30 states have no additional state requirements..

 

[USAF_Vet]

In Michigan, having a CCW waives the need to get a handgun purchase permit (which includes background check and safety test). A CCW holder can walk into a gun store, fill out the 4473 after showing the clerk their CCW, and walk out with their hand gun. Registration card must still be filled out and sent to local PD and MSP for hand guns.

Some LGS may still opt to run a NICS, but it's optional for those with a CCW.

 

[Magoo]

In South Carolina a CWP (concealed weapons permit) gets you a pass on the NCIS check. Pay, fill out the 4473, they copy some info off of the CWP onto it, and you're out the door.

 

[dogtown tom]

bikemutt

Quote:
This also spits in the eye of the point of a back round check. Not that I'm advocating them.

I agree, on both counts. A carry permit here is good for 5 years. If someone were to become prohibited shortly after receiving one then in theory they could continue to purchase guns from dealers for years before the permit expired.

Possible, but if you commit a crime and become a prohibited person your state permit would be revoked or suspended. I believe that is one of the requirements by ATF in order to accept a state permit as an exemption. It's no more improbable than someone who does not hold a NICS approved state permit buying a firearm before his conviction or indictment hits the FBI database.

Sure, it could happen....but acquiring a firearm or attempting to acquire a firearm while you are under indictment is just another charge to pile on to your other charges.

 

[bikemutt]

Possible, but if you commit a crime and become a prohibited person your state permit would be revoked or suspended. I believe that is one of the requirements by ATF in order to accept a state permit as an exemption. It's no more improbable than someone who does not hold a NICS approved state permit buying a firearm before his conviction or indictment hits the FBI database.

Sure, it could happen....but acquiring a firearm or attempting to acquire a firearm while you are under indictment is just another charge to pile on to your other charges.

I would think it should be a requirement that a carry permit become revoked upon the holder becoming prohibited. I don't know what WA does in such a circumstance, and I have no immediate plans to find out in person.

However, any permit holder can walk in and request a replacement permit because his is lost or destroyed, regardless of how truthful the request might be. I guess what I'm saying is that unless the state has a way to prevent the use of a carry permit, I can imagine all sorts of ways for a person to have custody of a usable one despite his prohibited status.

And I agree 100% with you that doing so is a very bad idea, however I've noticed over the years there seems to be no shortage of people who will execute bad plans.

 

[janedoedad]

Georgia is also on the list of states where a permit (Georgia Weapons License) is accepted in lieu of the NICS background check. The GWL application has requirements for fingerprinting and additional information beyond the 4473. A NICS check is part of the application process. Good for 5 years.

GWL may be suspended upon an arrest and is revoked upon a disqualifying conviction or event (mental incompetence declaration, domestic violence restraiining orders, etc.)

 

[gripper]

They do the same BS in NH.I have the redundant state licensing(LTC and armed security license) and I get denied on NICS every time....funny,since I work as an armed guard at the FAA.