Kerry credited with 20 kills in Vietnam
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Cactus
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You know who disagrees with you? John Kerry! On Meet the Press in April 1971, John Kerry admitted to having knowingly commited "atrocities" that were in violation of the Geneva Convention while serving in Viet Nam. I don't consider that honorable; nor did John Kerry at one time.
Add to that his having negotiated with the Viet Cong as a private citizen, and I find nothing honorable about John Kerry's life!
That the Democrats now put this jerk up as a man to be President of this great nation just shows how decadent, immoral and rudderless they have become.
Apparently, John "Flipper" Kerry was even flip flopping back then: He went to Vietnam and fought so ferociously as to earn 3 PH; returned and denounced himself and his country and urged desertion and flight to Canada; now he reminds us daily of his service and is lauded by the left who denounced the conflict as illegal and immoral.......
I think they're ALL mentally disordered.
I think they're ALL mentally disordered.
"You know who disagrees with you? John Kerry! On Meet the Press in April 1971, John Kerry admitted to having knowingly committed "atrocities" that were in violation of the Geneva Convention while serving in Vietnam. I don't consider that honorable; nor did John Kerry at one time."
You know who seems to give John Kerry more credit than I do? You! John Kerry was just one among thousands of fashionable traitors. He probably felt it gave him more credibility. He is a snake.
"Add to that his having negotiated with the Viet Cong as a private citizen, and I find nothing honorable about John Kerry's life! "
Re-read my post! I point out that he was, in essence, a traitor.
I was just saying that it is stupid and dangerous to bring up Kerry's military record. He did a hell of a lot more for his country (military-wise) than Bush. That said, his entire post-military career has been that of a dishonorable opportunist who sold out boys who were still in the field for short-term benefit. I think John Kerry should be ashamed to show his face after what he did. Talk about what he has done since Nam'. You guys are focusing on the only thing the guy ever seems to have done right! Ever!
GHB
You know who seems to give John Kerry more credit than I do? You! John Kerry was just one among thousands of fashionable traitors. He probably felt it gave him more credibility. He is a snake.
"Add to that his having negotiated with the Viet Cong as a private citizen, and I find nothing honorable about John Kerry's life! "
Re-read my post! I point out that he was, in essence, a traitor.
I was just saying that it is stupid and dangerous to bring up Kerry's military record. He did a hell of a lot more for his country (military-wise) than Bush. That said, his entire post-military career has been that of a dishonorable opportunist who sold out boys who were still in the field for short-term benefit. I think John Kerry should be ashamed to show his face after what he did. Talk about what he has done since Nam'. You guys are focusing on the only thing the guy ever seems to have done right! Ever!
GHB
fix
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You should always add "in Vietnam" to that statement. President Bush has served as a wartime CinC for the last 2 years, with considerable distinction IMO.
Cool Hand Luke 22:36
member
No he didn't. Kerry gave aid and comfort to the enemy during time of war. The North Vietnamese credited Kerry, Fonda, et al. with having stiffened their resolve to continue killing American GI's during the war. The American POW's lives were made far worse than they otherwise would have been if not for people like Kerry and Fonda.
You conveniently overlook Kerry's treatment of his fellow Vietnam Vets. Kerry made their lives difficult when he lied about them committing atrocities in Vietnam as a matter of policy.
Bush served honorably for 6 years, in a very dangerous job flying fighter jets whose squadrons typically had a 25% attrition rate due to deaths and injuries related to flying. Bush was turned down when he requested to be sent to Vietnam.
Kerry used every trick in the book to shirk his duties in Vietnam during his paltry 3 months there, pleading at every turn for some very dubious Purple Heart awards (apparently just a scratch on his elbow for the first one), then begging to be sent back home the instant when he acquired the magic number of three.
Last time I checked Kerry still has refused to release the medical records and citation for his first purple heart award. Serious questions remain as to whether it was ever actually awarded. His CO has stated that he turned down Kerry's request for the award and does not recall ever signing off on it.
Kerry still has refused to apologize to the Vietnam Veterans he slandered, and has never asked the forgiveness to the families of those GIs killed in Vietnam by a North Vietnamese Army that Kerry actively gave aid and comfort to during the war.
John Kerry is a traitor to this country and has been since he returned from Vietnam.
The best measure of John Kerry's "service" to this country is the opinion that other Vietnam Veterans have of him. Here is a link to an online forum comprised of Vietnam Vets organizing anti-Kerry demonstrations for this summer and fall:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/Proud_Nam_Vets/start
HBK
member
Kerry's voting record is what we should be focusing on. It reveals him to be the most liberal senator in the history of the US. All the leftist crap about him being a war hero makes me want to puke. Cleland had an unfortunate accident, but that doesn't make him a hero. He admitted he saw a grenade after getting out of a helicopter, thought it was his, picked it up and boom. That doesn't exactly qualify him to run for office. I'm glad Georgia finally got sick of his sorry, liberal ass and voted him out of office. McCain has been no friend of Vietnam Veterans either. He's not a conservative in my book. Kerry, Cleland, McCain...they'd be better off in France. We'd be better off if they were there. Cool Hand Luke has it right, Kerry is nothing more than a gold digging traitor.
fix
Member
Please don't make statements like this unless you know them to be true. Speculation is not good enough. We have enough of that coming from the left. I suspect there may indeed be some truth to what you say, but until it is proven to be fact this issue needs to go away.
Cool Hand Luke 22:36
member
Kerry has admitted to putting himself in for the purple heart awards, he has admitted that they were for in several instances: "half-assed" engagements where he received, by his own admission, a very light wound at best. Engagements where Kerry has admitted to committing war crimes or "atrocities."
Kerry has admitted to requesting a transfer back to the US only 4 days after he received his 3rd(?) Purple Heart.
What is it about this that you consider so speculative? This information was provided by John Kerry himself or is on the public record.
The only question remaining is whether or not he actually earned the first Purple Heart award. Kerry is still refusing to release the records regarding that one. His CO at the time does not recall signing off on it, only that he turned down Kerry's request for the award.
Considering the smear job Kerry's campaign attempted on Bush's service record and Kerry's daily raising of the issue of Vietnam service, it is entirely appropiate to discuss this issue right here and now. Kerry should not get a pass on this issue.
Are you also saying that Kerry's fellow Vietnam Vererans, who he slandered, and the families of the GI's he helped kill, should have no right to raise these issues?
Are you guys saying because he disagreed with the war and tried to get it finished that he's a traitor?
And what was the 'paltry three months' service comment? Paltry? Even a DAY of war is probably some pretty scary stuff.
-look, my uncle served three tours in 'nam retired a lieutenant colonel, loads of medals etc. etc. But he protested the war. He SAW and went through, first hand, the crap over there, and wasn't at peace with what he saw. A soldier can and should use their brains. It's not like they have absolutely no rights once they sign on the dotted line.
-It just sounds desperate when we attack Kerry's military record and try to denounce it. We're grasping. It shows weakeness. And to blame the POW situation on Kerry, or Jane is just silly. ALL of America except for the few who really, really fought to get the POWS out, is responsible for crapping out on our people. I was a baby when all that happened yet I feel like dooky that we didn't do something.
Neither I or my Uncle think bad of the people that protested against that freakin' mess of a war and many of the advocates against this war in Iraq are Vietnam vets.
I DO hate, with a passion, those who spit on our soldiers, since it's the American people and politicians who forced them to fight for us. The soldiers didn't pick the fight, our gov. did. Having said that, many of our boys did some heinous stuff over there and needed to be called on it. And yes, my uncle did kill innocents when he'd call in an airstrike on a grid only to find that it was full of civvies... War is hell, but that shouldn't take away from our boys' service record, Kerry inclluded.
And what was the 'paltry three months' service comment? Paltry? Even a DAY of war is probably some pretty scary stuff.
-look, my uncle served three tours in 'nam retired a lieutenant colonel, loads of medals etc. etc. But he protested the war. He SAW and went through, first hand, the crap over there, and wasn't at peace with what he saw. A soldier can and should use their brains. It's not like they have absolutely no rights once they sign on the dotted line.
-It just sounds desperate when we attack Kerry's military record and try to denounce it. We're grasping. It shows weakeness. And to blame the POW situation on Kerry, or Jane is just silly. ALL of America except for the few who really, really fought to get the POWS out, is responsible for crapping out on our people. I was a baby when all that happened yet I feel like dooky that we didn't do something.
Neither I or my Uncle think bad of the people that protested against that freakin' mess of a war and many of the advocates against this war in Iraq are Vietnam vets.
I DO hate, with a passion, those who spit on our soldiers, since it's the American people and politicians who forced them to fight for us. The soldiers didn't pick the fight, our gov. did. Having said that, many of our boys did some heinous stuff over there and needed to be called on it. And yes, my uncle did kill innocents when he'd call in an airstrike on a grid only to find that it was full of civvies... War is hell, but that shouldn't take away from our boys' service record, Kerry inclluded.
wingedmonkey
Member
"Fair enough. I would not dispute anybody refusing to vote for Kerry based on his voting record. So, why then is the republican party compelled to attack his military service record up to an including questioning the validity of his three purple hearts? Seriously, they are reviewing his "wounds" and questioning whether he deserved the awards.
I am not peddling Kerry, but I think when the White House resorts to mud-slinging against his service record they look desparate."
Bountyhunter,
I don't recall hearing associated with the White House or the Party talk about his "wounds." Speaking for myself, I am more concerned with what he did to give aid and comfort to the enemy when he came back. I was just a kid during the war but my oldest brother served a tour of duty in Vietnam (he survived but like most of Vietnam Vets except Kerry, never talks about the experience).
I agree with you that those of us who oppose Kerry (not only for his anti-gun and 100% rating from HSUS - the most anti-hunting group in the nation - but for other reasons as well) have plenty of ammunition to use against him without trying to discredit his service in Vietnam.
I don't know of an effort by the Party or the Bush campaign to do this. It is likely the information is being dredged up and thrown around by some of the independent organizations (Vietnam Veterans against Kerry, etc) and being picked up by conservative talk radio (I have heard it mentioned on Hannity's program by callers but have not heard Rush mention it).
I am not peddling Kerry, but I think when the White House resorts to mud-slinging against his service record they look desparate."
Bountyhunter,
I don't recall hearing associated with the White House or the Party talk about his "wounds." Speaking for myself, I am more concerned with what he did to give aid and comfort to the enemy when he came back. I was just a kid during the war but my oldest brother served a tour of duty in Vietnam (he survived but like most of Vietnam Vets except Kerry, never talks about the experience).
I agree with you that those of us who oppose Kerry (not only for his anti-gun and 100% rating from HSUS - the most anti-hunting group in the nation - but for other reasons as well) have plenty of ammunition to use against him without trying to discredit his service in Vietnam.
I don't know of an effort by the Party or the Bush campaign to do this. It is likely the information is being dredged up and thrown around by some of the independent organizations (Vietnam Veterans against Kerry, etc) and being picked up by conservative talk radio (I have heard it mentioned on Hannity's program by callers but have not heard Rush mention it).
fix
Member
No. It is not appropriate. It may feel good, but feeling good and being appropriate are two entirely different things. Kerry should make all his records available in the same manner Bush did, by authorizing their release to anyone who cares to have a look...not by selectively posting snippets on his website. Attacking his record, when quite frankly it's not very clear that there is anything to attack, smacks of blind partisanship. You need to seperate his behavior since his return from VN from his service there and focus on that, rather than leaving yourself and other conservatives open for backlash by criticizing his war record. Quite frankly, the only thing that really matters anyway is that both candidate served, and received honorable discharges. That is good enough for me, and it should be good enough for anyone else who looks at it objectively.
Cactus
Member
And Benedict Arnold did a lot more for his country "military-wise" than John Kerry ever did. Yet no one lauds Arnold for his "service" to his country in an attempt to excuse his later conduct during the war as some do with Kerry. John Kerry and the Viet Nam Veterans Against the War still considered themselves soldiers whose "duty" it was to get America out of the conflict in any way possible.
I'm giving John Kerry the benefit of the doubt. He stated in April of 1971 that he personally commited atrocities that violated the Geneva Conventions on warfare. He has never rebuked that statement and in fact, just this past weekend in an interview with Tim Russert, Kerry stood by that statement. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day, so until evidence proves otherwise, I will take the Boston gigalo at his word.
This is the same standard I held too previous to the discovery of John Kerry's 1971 interview on Meet the Press; I was willing to honor his service in Viet Nam, and encourage others to do so, unless evidence showed that it was less than so.
If John Kerry wishes to retract his previous statements as to him being a war criminal, and admit to a lie, he has every opportunity to do so. It is John Kerry who chose to bring up his military service (ad nauseum), not the Republicans. So let's look at Kerry's record as he recalled it at that time, not 35 years later when it is now "fashionable" to be a veteran of Viet Nam.
I will repeat what I said; I find nothing honorable about John Kerry's life!
Here we go again: demonizing a man... It just makes us look blind, and thick headed...
-He's not done one honorable thing? I guess the millions that voted him into office are just blinded by his demonic powers or maybe he bought them off..
Not ONE honorable thing???
-He's not done one honorable thing? I guess the millions that voted him into office are just blinded by his demonic powers or maybe he bought them off..
Not ONE honorable thing???
bountyhunter
member
Yes, that is basically the position being used by the Bush supporters.... that because Kerry came back and criticized the war, that negates his war service.
What part of this don't you understand?
KERRY made his record an issue.
KERRY is pointing to his Viet Nam service as proof of his fitness to serve as Commander-in-Chief.
Why is it not appropriate to discuss it?
He's sure not discussing his voting record!
so my uncle's three tours and purple hearts and other medals mean nothing as well because he thought the war a joke and how it was handled by the politicians as a joke as well? Even though he bled and fought for us, saw the crap, he has NO right to speak against it?
-Give credit where credit is due. You'll be surprised as to how many vets after coming back and finding out the truth of the matter called bullya on the war. It doesn't take away from their service; it just shows that they were exercising their brains and their rights in their own way.
-Give credit where credit is due. You'll be surprised as to how many vets after coming back and finding out the truth of the matter called bullya on the war. It doesn't take away from their service; it just shows that they were exercising their brains and their rights in their own way.
Cactus
Member
Nope! When Kerry himself admitted to commiting war crimes, THAT negated his war service!
Are the Democrats honoring service which Kerry himself described as "atrocities" and "war crimes"? How sad!
bountyhunter
member
I have to say this and go ahead and flame: it becomes very clear that anybody who tries to sell this line of crap did not serve in Viet nam or knew anybody who did. I went to college with a lot of Viet nam vets (as well as my two brothers) and I can say with 100% certainty that the war screwed up the heads of those people to various degrees. Many did eventually feel guilty about what they had done and wished they had never been there. Not all, but a lot were feeling that way.
The bottom line is that Kerry is allowed to say he believed what he did there was wrong. he (like many) went there believing they were saving a tiny country from communism, preventing the "domino effect" that would enslave the world, and all the rest of the cold war BS. They are allowed to re-evaluate their original opinions in the light of the truths released later about the war, how it was fought, and more importantly, what effects it had.
Bottom line is this: if you want to take pot shots at Viet nam vets who came home with their heads on crooked or angry at the government, you are going to need a lot of ammunition. A lot of people were screwed up by that war, some came around in time and some had their outlooks on life changed forever. maybe Kerry went over there a gung-ho soldier and went the other way after he learned about what he believed was betrayal of the trust of the young men who blindly went to war believing everything their government told them. He had a lot of company in that boat.
Cactus,
Look man, I've talked to my uncle's friends and he would say the same thing: if you were there as infantry, and were alive after the first few weeks, you were BOUND to kill an innocent simply because of how the war played out in that theatre of war.
The VC were very intermixed with the non-combatitive folk and many a time we killed innocents accidentally and purposely. If it was accidentally, then it's an atrocity, but one that can be excused and even forgiven because of the crap that war is.
It's when it's done purposely that changes the tone.
I do think look better upon a person who's served in the military seeing that the POTUS is the commander-in-chief: he's gotta be able to understand this role. It was a big thing for me against Clinton, for instance.
Look man, I've talked to my uncle's friends and he would say the same thing: if you were there as infantry, and were alive after the first few weeks, you were BOUND to kill an innocent simply because of how the war played out in that theatre of war.
The VC were very intermixed with the non-combatitive folk and many a time we killed innocents accidentally and purposely. If it was accidentally, then it's an atrocity, but one that can be excused and even forgiven because of the crap that war is.
It's when it's done purposely that changes the tone.
I do think look better upon a person who's served in the military seeing that the POTUS is the commander-in-chief: he's gotta be able to understand this role. It was a big thing for me against Clinton, for instance.
I understand partisanship. I am a dyed-in-the-wool Republican. I will vote for Bush proudly (unless he signs a new AWB). But I don't understand why people have to pretend that Kerry is Satan, or Bush is Satan. Do you guys really believe this crap?
The REAL problem with Kerry is that, after doing his duty, he came back and has been steadily peeing on Veterans (and this country's security) ever since. But no man is perfectly flawed. Kerry is just a leftist doofus, not Dr. Evil. Bush has his flaws too, but his heart and mind are in the right place: America must finally engage evil directly. He knows he will never be invited over to any New York Philosopher's dinner parties...he won't be praised by the NYT and the rest of the intelligentsia. Bush will just have to be content with knowing that he had the balls to defend this country in one of its darkest moments.
GHB
The REAL problem with Kerry is that, after doing his duty, he came back and has been steadily peeing on Veterans (and this country's security) ever since. But no man is perfectly flawed. Kerry is just a leftist doofus, not Dr. Evil. Bush has his flaws too, but his heart and mind are in the right place: America must finally engage evil directly. He knows he will never be invited over to any New York Philosopher's dinner parties...he won't be praised by the NYT and the rest of the intelligentsia. Bush will just have to be content with knowing that he had the balls to defend this country in one of its darkest moments.
GHB
Cactus
Member
Where has ANYONE said that? Kerry, as did your uncle, had every right to speak out against the war, just as I have every right to criticize his doing so! What he had NO right to do was to endanger the men and women still in Viet Nam or to negotiate a settlement with the Viet Cong as a private citizen. That's a big difference than saying that the war is being handled as a "joke".
And I never said that! I think marrying TWO wealthy women is QUITE laudable. But there's a big difference between "laudable" and "honorable"!
And if a man's actions are self-described as criminal and immoral, then yes, I will demonize him!
That happens in EVERY war. No one (except for the lefties that now idolizes Kerry) criticizes any soldier for the inadvertant killing of non-combatants. ????? happens! But before you defend Kerry, read his statements from 1971. He said that he, and many, many others, intentionally targeted innocents and knowingly and willingly violated the laws of warfare. In essence, John Kerry has called YOUR uncle a murderer and a baby killer! John Kerry's actions resulted in the Viet Nam War lasting longer, according to Gen. Giap (CINC of the NVA), with the result of more Americans killed. Defend that if you wish, but get ALL the facts first.
This crap about ALL Viet Nam vets coming back as psycho's is just that, CRAP, spread by the leftists and Hollywood! I have many friend's, relatives and co-workers who served in combat in Viet Nam who are well adjusted and productive citizens. I don't know a single Viet Nam vet who has been unable to "adjust". This is backed up by studies that show that combat veterans of Viet Nam are LESS likely to commit suicide, commit crimes, be un-employed or under-employed and to be homeless than the general population of that same age group who didn't serve in Viet Nam.
Yes some Viet Nam vets have war related problems. This is common with all combat veterans. My uncle and father are still reluctant to discuss their experiences during WW2 over 60 years ago. They still have nightmares.
But to believe a self-serving opportunist like John Kerry, that many American servicemen and women are war criminals and mental cases, does YOUR uncle and all other American servicemen and women a GREAT disservice.
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