Kneeling

[mljdeckard]

Over the last couple of years, I have come to decide that in the vast majority of likely armed encounters, it is best to drop to a kneeling stance to fire. First of all, when you are in danger, you want to present as small of a target as possible. Second, as we are responsible tor everything our bullets ultimately hit, we want to angle them upward, rather than in a straight line between and past us and the bad guy. I also find that I can fire more accurately, although I would say many people wouldn't if they had never tried it before on the range.

I THINK, it's always best to TRY to get a kneeling shot provided that: You actually have TIME to take a knee, and that it isn't obviously MORE hazardous to bystanders in a given situation. (Like, you drop to a knee, and realize that you are shooting through the BG, up into the loaded balcony of the food court.

Are there obvious flaws in this reasoning?

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Kneeling only obscures your shins and feet -- and increases the chance of a penetration hit on them if your assailant sights through your abdomen. Just draw and shoot; don't try to impress Nadia Comaneci.

 

[Sir Aardvark]

First, what goes up must come down.
That bullet that you just shot up into the air at an angle may miss the immediate background visible behind your target, but, it will come to ground, perhaps with deadly consequences.

Second, while kneeling may work for you, I do not believe that this would be the best option available for me.
I think that I can engage a target quite well while standing, but, don't get me wrong - I will use what cover or concealment is available to save my skin - I just don't think that going down on one knee is the best thing to do regardless of the situation.
Also, I would prefer to be on my feet so that I can skedoodle my butt out of the way, if that's what I need to do. Once you drop to your knee, you are limiting your range of motion, thus likely placing yourself in greater danger.

 

[ChristopherG]

Most shootings are, I expect, far too dynamic to assume even an ideal STANDING position. I think drilling yourself to kneel before shooting is probably drilling yourself to get drilled. So to speak. When it's time to shoot, get to shooting, Now.

 

[Dr. Fresh]

Not to mention you should probably be moving to avoid getting shot.

 

[SLCscottie]

Get Off the X quick

Don't be a stationary target. Move to throw off your attacker(s). Draw while you are moving. Flanking preferably. Do the unexpected and throw your attacker(s) off balance.

I recommend checking our Gabe Suarez's books and forum WarriorTalk.com.

 

[Brian Dale]

I can't run away worth a darn in the kneeling position.

 

[rrruuunnn]

If you are far away laying down is probably better. If close, I don't think kneeling will do unless your behind a car.

 

[wyocarp]

The kneeling thing doesn't work for me. I agree with the draw and shoot. Cover would be nice if available.

 

[Old Guy]

Taking a knee was taught by certain SF groups in the Brit Military, during the days of the troubles in Northern Island, in reloading.

Browning Hi Powers still had lots of ammo tho? If you had gone though 14 or so 9mm hardball, feet do your stuff might be the next command!

It let your mates know you were out of ammo, but teaching going to a knee in some dirty back alley behind a Pub in Belfast, broken glass all over, IMHO was not bright.

If given the chance, a ricochet in the ankle or boot, might seem a better choice than one in the knee! Mobility is king in a confrontation of any nature.

As already stated, taking cover might encompass going to a knee, I prefer the rice paddy squat, gives more mobility, and keeps knees off the deck.

 

[Jenrick]

Kneeling is good for working behind cover. In current tactical circles the utility of it for much else is in debate. The main argument for using it in team operations is that it's a visual signal to anyone else on your team that you are out of the fight temporarily. Conversely dropping to a knee doesn't save time, and in most cases doesn't get you out of the line of fire.

For individual confrontations, I would say that unless you have cover/concealment or lots of time stay standing. If you have lots of time do you have to shoot? If you have to would a different position (prone, or supported) be more accurate?

-Jenrick

 

[VegasOPM]

Don't kneel- MOVE. If you want a lower angle, bend your knees while MOVING.

 

[yeti]

My dang old knees would lock, and I would spend my last moments rooted to that spot like an old sycamore tree. Or flopping around on the ground like a beached whale. A stable shooting position is great, cover is better.

 

[Stirling XD]

I've given the kneeling idea some thought in the past. In certain circumstances, I think it has its pros. You do present a smaller target. By lowering your gun, you raise the trajectory of your bullet and reduce the chances of hitting a bystander directly behind the BG. Yes, the bullet will come down somewhere, but it may have to go through a wall or ceiling thereby diminishing its energy or stopping it.

But on the flip side, mobility is king in a life and death situation. Moving targets are harder to hit especially when they move behind cover. Kneeling takes time. Standing up from kneeling takes time too. For some of us it takes more time than it does for other. While kneeling is not part of my plan A(or B or C for that matter), I won’t completely remove it from my bag of tricks.

Besides, the last few times I kneeled in a hurry I ripped my pants. If a BG is laughing so hard he can’t shoot straight, is shooting him still considered self defense?

 

[RyanM]

As others have said, it's better to move.

Step 1, move. Step 2, move while drawing your gun. Step 3, move some more. 4, shoot while moving. Even if you get behind something, you're usually better off moving around behind it, since relatively few things will actually stop a bullet.

 

[Chindo18Z]

Related thread...

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=346003

 

[HorseSoldier]

I don't find just taking a knee to be more stable than shooting from a standing position, versus dropping down into a proper supported kneeling position which is, but which takes longer (and I've never been able to make that work with pistols, only long guns . . .).

I'd agree with other posters who noted they'd kneel to conform to cover but would otherwise prefer to keep the mobility standing affords them, outside of those occasional scenarios where kneeling would be preferable for other reasons (like the OP's mention of a scenario where you want to angle shots upward due to backstop issues).

Taking a knee fast if you're in a shooting in a hallway or some other confined space might make sense, too, though I'd also see a downside of then putting yourself at a disadvantage if the close range encounter goes from shooting to a fist fight rapidly. I think the previously mentioned Gabe Suarez is teaching some rather different techniques for that kind of scenario.

 

[wyocarp]

I'm pretty sure the time it takes to kneel is about the same about of time it takes to get shot.

 

[CWL]

Kneeling is only useful if you are behind a barricade, otherwise, movement is more effective for staying alive during a gunfight. People mostly train by shooting fixed targets at a range, and you have just made yourself one. It is easier to adjust your gun sights downwards than it is to move your sights o either side when tracking a target -try this.

Kneeling immobilizes you during an armed encounter. If you seriously believe that this will work and train yourself to always go down, then you are locked into that position, even if it is a dynamic gunfight or if there are multiple BGs shooting or stabbing you.

 

[psyopspec]

How quickly can you scan for and neutralize threats from that position? How quickly can you react to a new threat 90 or 180 degrees from center (and by "react" I mean deliver accurate fire, seek cover, or retreat.)?

 

[Cannonball888]

Kneeling is good if you run out of ammo and need to quickly start praying.

 

[mercop]

Talk about limiting your mobility. Was bad enough on the range when you had to do it during qualification and would be lucky enough to drop to your knee on a piece of spent brass.

 

[Brian Dale]

Thanks, Chindo18Z. That thread puts the whole notion into a clearer perspective.

mercop, I hear ya.

 

[foghornl]

Instead of taking one in the gut, you catch the other guys bullet between your eyes....

 

[Hungry Seagull]

That bubble isnt one to be kneeling on. I dont want to be here when I get fired on... not on this bubble, no sir. Im going to be moving... like a bad crippled blue crab, but moving if I dont pass out first from the chemicals in the blood rush.

One thing I remember from previous encounters of the surprise kind with YOU on the bubble... there is a tendancy to discover cement shoes weighing 20 pounds each all of a sudden.