Knife Attack, You have a Gun...

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Draw (I would extend my weak hand) and empty your magzine into the target (and before anyone comments, yes I am fast enough to do that.

empty the mag in less than .60 seconds including the drawstroke? Thats how much time you have to get the first round on him before he's cutting on you.

Interesting indeed. How fast is your drawstroke?

Brownie
 
My point wasn't that I could empty the mag, just that I could draw and hit the target that quickly (and I wouldn't use the sights in this situation).
 
I could draw and hit the target that quickly

That may or may not be true.

What is important to remember here is that not very many are capable of that speed on their best day. These are the people expressing their opinions here. For them, the correct response is something other than "Draw and fire".

If they try that at 8 feet, they'll not clear the holster and get one shot off before that knifer is on them cutting them long deep and continuous.

Brownie
 
I think some people don't really have a grasp of how close eight feet is. Measure it out and have someone try to lunge at you. With their arm extended, weapon in hand, they'll reach you in no time. There is no time for this screwing around with the chair or otherwise trying to do fancy things. Even throwing the soda, I think, is probably a waste of time- at this range it's going to slow you down a lot, and it's barely going to slow him down.
 
Okay... this is getting to be a little bit more seirous than I though. I can tell there are some who actually haven't practiced this drill. The man is at 8 feet. And he probably is allready on the move toward you. Standing still and drawing on this man is the best way to get dead. At eight feet and moving he could get some serious sticks and wounds on you before you could clear your leather, I don't care how fast you say you are. At eight feet he could get to you in under a second.

My point wasn't that I could empty the mag, just that I could draw and hit the target that quickly (and I wouldn't use the sights in this situation).

I don't often say this, but Lurper I think you are full of it.

If you are 10% safer by moving while shooting, but it takes 20% longer to fire a given string of fire and it is 20% less Combat Accurate, you end up being exposed to danger significantly longer than if you just stopped and shot." (p. 68)

Pincus wasn't talking about a situation where an attacker is 8 feet away and you haven't drawn yet either... He would agree with me that if you tried to stay stationary and draw... the only drawing would be that of a chalk outline of your body on the floor.

Putting distance between him and you, hoping he hesitates, hoping the cut you recieve is on your defensive arm, and having practiced so many presentations that drawing in this situation has become muscle memory is the only way you will win this fight. NUFF SAID!

Flak out.
 
there is also some assumption that the guy with the knife has some skill at using it, and understands that he can get to you PDQ. that is not necessarily the case.

I can't imagine that my first thought when I see an armed person in front of me is to charge him with my knife.

An experienced fighter, maybe. Average person with a knife, maybe not.
 
there is also some assumption that the guy with the knife has some skill at using it, and understands that he can get to you PDQ. that is not necessarily the case.

Agreed, but I've always tried to err on the side of caution and not under-estimate an opponent. :D

Brownie
 
Flak you are certainly entitled to your opinion. But you should at least base it on knowledge of who you attack. I can assure you that I can in fact hit the target that fast. There are people here and on other forums who can verify that.
Two further points:
I said it was my personal choice to draw and fire, it may not work for someone not as skilled.

In this particular scenario, you will not be able to put any distance between you and the assailant. He is too close. Are you counting on him being slower than you? Counting on throwing a can of soda or moving a chair to distract him? In this scenario, you probably have a second or less (whether you choose to believe it or not, I can hit the target at least once under a second all day long. Twice on a good day). Every tenth you use is moving you closer to harm. If you try to do anything except draw and fire you will be in an even less tactically advantageous position. You have basically been caught w/your pants down. More than likely, you are going to get cut. Maybe even killed. But the disadvantages of moving while shooting outweigh any advantage you think you might gain. In these situations it is critical to score the first hit. Best to score multiple first hits.

I'd be interested to know what training and qualifications enable you to make such an assumption flak?
 
Is he on the attack already, or just standing there with a knife demanding something?
If its an attack.....At 8', you are going to get cut. Face it, don't fear it. Now how badly you get cut is up to you.
Move off the line of attack. This is your first defense, and will take a killing knife blow and change it into a glancing slash. You might luck out and end up with the only escape route, the door, behind you.
Immediately go on the attack. If you can gain control of the knife arm, great. If not, Attack his head from the side. Kick him. Bite him. Grab the nearest blunt object and smoosh his grape. You are in a fight for your life. Nothing is off limits.
If you can gain distance or knock the attacker off balance, draw and fire.

PS. Always move to the outside of the weapon. The attacker can only slash from this angle, and not plunge. A slash hurts. A plunge kills.
 
Everyone needs to read and understand the Tueller Drill.

See my previous post. His point was more that you should have your weapon in hand and attain the best tactical position before the events happen. Tueller sums it up best in the last two paragraphs of his article "How close is too close?"

". . . Remember, the greater your skill with your weapon, the smaller your Danger Zone will be, but only if that skill is coupled with good mental conditioning, tactical planning and alertness, because no amount of skill will do you any good unless you know that you're in trouble.

Skill at arms and proper mental attitude. that's the combination that will make you the winner in a "Close Encounter of the Cutting Kind". . . ."

In this scenario, tactical planning and alertness have been nullified already - trouble is upon you. Tueller also discusses using the "step-back" technique which is applicable if you know what is behind you but will still not put any measurable distance between you and your assailant (assuming he moves as fast as you do).
 
See my previous post. His point was more that you should have your weapon in hand and attain the best tactical position before the events happen.
At 8' you'd be lucky to hit a charging suspect unless you already were drawn and ready to fire.
 
Distance is your friend!

Loose the pop, and start an immediate retreat, the BG can close the distance in time to kill you before you can draw and shoot to stop. You may critically wound the PERP but his momentum will carry him though and this will still inflict fatal injury to you!

Full retreat while drawing are only good life preserving skills and not cowardice. If pursuit persists while glancing backward "Point N Shoot" until the threat is neutralized, after a few hits the BG will be slowing down.

Standing your ground in a situation like this unless you are experienced and trained in hand to hand combat is stupid and macho insanity. Move and live simple rules.
 
Flak you are certainly entitled to your opinion. But you should at least base it on knowledge of who you attack.

First off I would not be attacking but defending.

I can assure you that I can in fact hit the target that fast. There are people here and on other forums who can verify that.

You can assure me all you want. I can take one step with my arm extended with a knife and cut that 8 feet in half allready. How long does it take to take two steps?

I said it was my personal choice to draw and fire, it may not work for someone not as skilled.

Wow, you sure have a big head eh?

In this particular scenario, you will not be able to put any distance between you and the assailant.

There appears to be a door behind you in this scenario. Anyways... ANY distance is better than none.

Are you counting on him being slower than you? Counting on throwing a can of soda or moving a chair to distract him?

I don't care how fast or slow he is. In this scenario all I can count on are my tactics to give me the best chance of survival. Throwing soda or chair tossing are wasting the less than a second you have to act, so no. I believe if that would've been part of my tactical plan I would have said as much in my previous post, which I didn't.

In these situations it is critical to score the first hit. Best to score multiple first hits.

These situations are called Tueller fraction drills. That is Tueller drill done at a fraction of the 21 ft. And in these drills scoring the first hit or multiple hits only happens if you keep out of range of his attack.

It takes 0.2 seconds for a human to react to visual stimuli and begin to act upon it.

The fastest draw ever on record was recorded by a Russian. He drew and fired from an open carry thigh high holster old west style and scored a hit in 0.208 seconds. He could never repeat the act and still cannot get below 0.241 seconds. It is widely believed he was able to anticipate the signal. Keep in mind that this is a man who is a professional fast draw competitor who fires from an open, non concealed holster, from the hip and does not have to process that there is a man with a knife coming into a room.

The fastest draw from concealed carry ever recorded on video was Lenny MaGill who is a concealed carry/ weapons instructor. His time was .68 seconds. That is just the draw not the oh crap... oh yeah my gun time. If you don't know who Lenny MaGill is just google him. He and Mas Ayoob worked together on some videos used for Ayoobs lethal force institue.

.68 seconds is too slow in this scenario. And you can brag all you want, but I don't believe you are as fast as Lenny. And Lenny wasn't surprised like in this scenario.

I'd be interested to know what training and qualifications enable you to make such an assumption flak?

I helped teach the Lake county sherrif's department several classes of advanced handgun tactics including the Tueller drill under sheriff Phil McDonald. Ever hear of Thunder Ranch? That is where I worked after I retired from military service.

If you really can get off 2 shots in under .68 seconds then I'll eat my hat. Course... I don't own a hat.
 
Shooting on the move is a good and useful skill to practice, but this scenario is not a good place to practice it. There's no room, and the attacker is too close.

Action/reaction determines what I'd do. If the attacker is standing there in the doorway, I draw and shoot. At eight feet, if the attacker sees me draw and lunges for me, he'll most likely take multiple hits before he can touch me.

On the other hand, if the attacker comes at me through the doorway without a pause, I hit him as hard as I can with the heaviest thing I have to hand, and hope I don't get cut too badly before I knock him down. If I can knock him down or stun him for a few seconds, I'll draw my pistol and shoot him until he stops trying to filet me.

- Chris
 
Eight feet, with knife and you are condition white initially? Pick up the phone, and call the funeral home- you are dead. By the time you process the info , he is carving you like a Christmas turkey. Seriously.
 
It takes 0.2 seconds for a human to react to visual stimuli and begin to act upon it.

Flak_Jakett, are you aware or do you know if that figure also applies to audio stimuli?

Thanks for your anticipated response

Brownie
 
The fastest draw ever on record was recorded by a Russian. He drew and fired from an open carry thigh high holster old west style and scored a hit in 0.208 seconds. He could never repeat the act and still cannot get below 0.241 seconds. It is widely believed he was able to anticipate the signal. Keep in mind that this is a man who is a professional fast draw competitor who fires from an open, non concealed holster, from the hip and does not have to process that there is a man with a knife coming into a room.

Actually, the fastest draw on record is .16 by Bob Munden. I have personally seen Bob and Ernie hill break .2 on several occasions.

The fastest draw from concealed carry ever recorded on video was Lenny MaGill who is a concealed carry/ weapons instructor.
While Lenny may have become an instructor since last time I talked to him, he is not by trade. By trade he is a film producer and I have known him for many years.

It takes 0.2 seconds for a human to react to visual stimuli and begin to act upon it.
I can tell you several of my peers who can react quicker than .2 all day long, you may have heard of them - Leatham, Enos, Shaw, Jarrett, Miculek. Visual or audio stimulus. In fact Munden and Hill were both using visual signals.

Wow, you sure have a big head eh?
No more so than anyone else. I just know what I can and cannot do. Whether you want to believe it or not makes no difference to me. It has been documented in the past and I'm sure I'll do more in the future.

You're free to choose what course of action you like. The reality is that given this scenario you are probably going to get cut no matter what you do. You aren't going to be able to put any appreciable distance between you and the attacker so the best course of action is to shoot.
 
You aren't going to be able to put any appreciable distance between you and the attacker so the best course of action is to shoot.

I don't believe you have to "put any appreciable distance between you and the attacker", you only need maintain the distance you started with, if possible, to stay away from the blade.

If he can't close enough to reach you with the knife, thats appreciable enough for me.;)

so the best course of action is to shoot.

Don't you mean "so the best course of action is to shoot"--for me?:D

Brownie
 
ok... you people are funny "i could draw and shoot fast enough" if you happen to have your hand on the gun in its holster... those .2 second reaction times were them BEING timed... put them in a recliner watching the jets game and see what their damned reaction time is then. youll be lucky if you can stand up and put the chair in between you two as you back up, which is of course your best course of action.
 
I'm going slightly the other direction here.

I'd also throw the soda at him, but I'd come in behind it with a front kick to the pelvis (not groin, pelvis, just below the bladder). This pushes the centre of gravity backwards, making them either step back or land on their arse. Someone suggested a kick to the chest. I'd say that was slightly too high a target. It'd be difficult to maintain balance.

at 8' it'd only be one big step before you're in contact range. I don't think you'd have time to draw and fire.

I used to be a state level fencer and plain and simple, at 8' I could have a blade in your throat before you could get a gun out of its holster.

The kick to the pelvis would give me time to pull my gun, at which point I'd have him covered. If he tried to run, then I'd take note of what he was wearing etc and call the police on my mobile while trying to keep him in sight.

If he paused then I'd yell at him to get on the ground and cover him until the police arrived.

If he came at me again, I'd empty the magazine.
 
In the original scenario Glenn posted, 99.99% of people would be toast; I don't care how good you think you are.

8ft distance, condition white... I doubt most people would even have time for their jaw to drop before being slashed. Only option I see here is to move into the attacker.
 
Anyone who thinks they have an answer to this hypothetical is deceiving themselves. While you can come up with, and train some alternatives, you cannot answer any hypothetical with a single tactic.

Why? Because in that moment, your mind (the best computer in the world) will make split-second computations based on a myriad of stimuli and programming (read prior training or lack thereof, beliefs, experience.)

How fast is he moving? Which angle is he going? How fast is your draw? What are your beliefs-training-experiences regarding shot-stop time/efficacy? What are your beliefs-training-experiences regarding H2H skills?

If he is walking, your split second computation might trigger a step off the "X" and draw-shoot. Is he is charging in fast your mind could choose a side step/raise weak hand and draw/shoot from retention. Or run, or close and engage H2H, or retreat and try to go H2H. Too many variables not covered by any hypothetical. Got to be in it to truly know what you would do. You can train for various responses, but your fight won't look like anyone else's hypothetical.

As far as the defeatist "your toast" comments...maybe that's the mental reality you've created for yourself, but I prefer to believe I will prevail and not quit unless/until my body doesn't function. There was a nurse in Oregon attacked by a man with a hammer who wanted to murder her. I doubt she had any training at all, certainly no gun and sub-whatever draw. Never heard of Tueller. She sustained multiple blows...killed him with her bare hands. http://www.nationalledger.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi?archive=4&num=8324
 
Don't you mean "so the best course of action is to shoot"--for me?
Precisely! Which is what I said in an earlier post.

put them in a recliner watching the jets game and see what their damned reaction time is then. youll be lucky if you can stand up and put the chair in between you two as you back up, which is of course your best course of action.
In this scenario, you are not in your chair. You are standing facing the assailant.

In the original scenario Glenn posted, 99.99% of people would be toast; I don't care how good you think you are.
Exactly! No matter what you do you are more than likely going to get cut. Even though I studied Aikido for several years, I feel more confident in drawing and firing than fighting empty hand -vs- blade. I'm not saying that I believe in the silver bullet (one shot will stop him). I'm saying that either way I'm screwed so I am going with my best shot (no pun intended) at survival. He may see the gun and change his mind. He may get hit and change his mind. He may not and continue the attack. No one can predict what will happen. But for me, my speed is my strength so that is what I will use. I don't understand why anyone wants to fault that decision. It's a personal choice based on intimate knowledge of my abilities. I know I can shoot that fast, done it before, can do it again. If that doesn't work for you, don't do it. Go with your strength.
 
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