Knife questions

[Reddbecca]

Serious questions everybody, something actually worth considering.

What would you choose as a defensive knife? Would you pick a real high-quality folder with a cost in the double digits, would would you take a general use locking blade that you can get at Wal-Mart or a hardware store for under $10?

I ask this question for a good reason. Yes your life is worth the best you can afford to buy, but keep this in mind. If you actually have to use your knife in a serious fight, it'll most likely be taken away from you by the police if the incident is investigated, and it could be months before you ever see your knife again, if at all.

Also what's your preference in a blade; plain or partially serrated?

I like the plain blades because they're easier to put a good edge on without a speciality sharpener and they'll make a clean cut in anything. But a partially serrated edge will do more damage in those dragging cut styles.

 

[Boats]

What would you choose as a defensive knife? Would you pick a real high-quality folder with a cost in the double digits, would would you take a general use locking blade that you can get at Wal-Mart or a hardware store for under $10?

I own only three folding knives that I consider "serious" enough to be considered self-defense capable. Two Benchmade 806D2 Axis locks and one BM Rukus Axis. The rest are too flimsy or too slow to deploy, or both.

So I guess that nothing below three digits need apply as my defense EDC.

I ask this question for a good reason. Yes your life is worth the best you can afford to buy, but keep this in mind. If you actually have to use your knife in a serious fight, it'll most likely be taken away from you by the police if the incident is investigated, and it could be months before you ever see your knife again, if at all.

I don't view this as a serious concern. People without means might.

Also what's your preference in a blade; plain or partially serrated?

I like the plain blades because they're easier to put a good edge on without a speciality sharpener and they'll make a clean cut in anything. But a partially serrated edge will do more damage in those dragging cut styles.

I like plain blades for the same reasons you do. I don't care if serrateds can theoretically do more damage in a drag cut or a slash, serrations get too easily hung up in such circumstances, "chewing the target" and are a SD control liability IMO.

Slashing can cause spectacular bleeding, and in fantastical MA video demonstrations on compliant targets, all kinds of "disabling" attacks.

Color me skeptical about kerambit mania, but thrusts are still the better choice with only three or four inches of live steel to work with.

People on these forums go on and on about how difficult or stupid a manual safety on a pistol is and how such can get you killed.

Some of these same folks also think they are going to limb control a resisting target and rip them up grappling style.

Hard to square that circle.

Knife fighting is crazy and unrealistic IMO. Stab'em to death and get it over with if those are the circumstances you face. It's not like you need to stop and reload.

 

[Stretchman]

Fixed blade full tang are better. You can get a Mora for cheap, a RAT for under 100 bux, and they are good concealed.

I just picked up an Ontario SP-2 for about 38 bux, including shipping. It is a sheath knife, larger than a defensive carry blade, but I have a need for a survival blade in my BOB.

Cold Steel made some pretty good boot blades. I would rather used a fixed blade over a folder any day. Folders are good for some things. Not for defense.

 

[DogBonz]

well, the one in my pocket...

Of course a fixed blade would be better than a folder, but I would get funny looks from the folks at the office if I walked around with a K-Bar.

Seriously though, it would be the one in my pocket right now because it’s the knife that I always have on my person (well, if I’m wearing pants, anyway). My Benchmade CQC7 has ridden in my pocket for 10 years, and I don’t see any need to change a thing. IMHO, it is the folder that started the “tactical” folder craze, and remains the pinnacle on knife design. It is simple, strong, comfortable to use, and elegant. Its thick titanium liners ensure that it stays locked open, and the top thumb serrations ensure a no slip grip. Plus, it has the thumb disk, which is ten times better then a thumb stud when opening one handed, not that you even need to use it. The nicely balanced blade snaps open with just the flick of my wrist.

You would be hard pressed to find a better folder any where, and it is probably, IMHO, impossible to find one of equal or better quality in its price range. Long live the king of “tactical” folders, the CQC7!

 

[mp510]

What would you choose as a defensive knife? Would you pick a real high-quality folder with a cost in the double digits, would would you take a general use locking blade that you can get at Wal-Mart or a hardware store for under $10?

While I write this post, I have a Vic Classic on my keychain (25 cents on eBay), a Wenger Standard Issue SAK, a Schrade Old Timer Stockman Model 340T in Carbon (~$10 @ pawnshop) and there's a used Leatherman tool in my jacket. Often times I will go the tactical route- a tactical knife, usually a Gerber or Leatherman 301 and an SAK. Yesterday I carried my Buck 110. Sometimes I carry a sub-4" fixed blade. Guess what, I never carry my knives with the intentions of using them as offensive or defensive weapons. The fact of the matter is, using a knife as a defensive tool is very difficult, especially without propper training. I would be better off using a burst of light from my e2e as a defensive tool than a knife. Having had the displeasure of doing such in adefensive situation, it is remarkebly easy to disarm a knife wielding individual. A less than stellar character could easily turn that knife on the victim who was trying to defent himself, much as the leading cause of LEO's shot dead in the line of duty is by a criminal using the officers own weapon, which was removed from the officer by the perp during a preceeding struggle (ie. wrestling with a suspect who's resisting arrest).I carry my knives as tools. If I ever did use a knife for self defense it would not be because I planned on my knife as an SD implement.

That said, any knife especially a rigid one can be used to kill a person once. In one major city, I recall reading that the most common stabbing implement was a steak knife. In another area, down under IIRC, screwdrivers were the most common stabbing implements. How many people have been shivved in prisons with improvised stabbing implemnts? How about Every Strider, Benchmade, Spyderco and ever other name brand you can think of? I guarantee you, the former is definetely a greater number. I just recently watched a documentary on the Rwanda genocide. The better part of 800,000 folks were hacked dead with cheap machetes. I didn't hear about anyone being hacked with a Busse. If a knife is going to be used once, as long as it doesn't have a catastrophic failure that injures and or kills the user, it could theoretically do the job.

If you noticed, my general purpose knives tend to be affordable knives, that serve their purpose well. Of course, I try to stick within a given knife's limitations.

 

[CWL]

The strange thing about most people looking for a SD knife is that they never consider how they will use the knife. hacking, stabbing and slashing may require completely different blade designs.

I really think you should start here before moving on to actual selection of an appropriate design.

Serrated blades can get caught in clothing, even on bone. They are also next to impossible to 'tune up' the edge for better performance like you can with a standard edge.

Owning an expensive knife isn't going to win any fights by itself. But a higher priced knife may contain certain features optimized to your particular style of knife studies.

As to costs, if the cops confiscate the knife after I've survived, big deal, at least I'm alive. You will find that your attorney's fees are going to exponentially outweight the replacement cost of a knife.

 

[hso]

Do you have or will you get any training in using a knife for SD?

 

[Mike Sastre]

Do you have any empty hand skills? Chances are you'll have to check or redirect the attck to get you space and time to deploy your folder. Ever try this under stress? There's a MD police officer, who goes by Mercop on different forums, that has a drill he does in his seminars called "Folder Into the Fight". Very eye-opening. Knives get dropped, openings fail, Mr. Murphy's having a lot of fun - just like in the real world.

http://usualsuspect.net/forums/showthread.php?t=131614

 

[whited]

.

What would you choose as a defensive knife?

A high quality katana. You asked. Realistically, I would choose
something large and sharp that I could swing and plunge very quickly;
a small machete for instance. For something to carry? I like 3-5" spear
or drop point fixed blades.

Would you pick a real high-quality folder with a cost in the double digits,

Nope. Don't do folders. I've never understood that market segment.

would you take a general use locking blade that you can get at Wal-Mart or a hardware store for under $10?

The only place I'd take that is to do some odd jobs around the house.

Also what's your preference in a blade; plain or partially serrated?

Plain edge.

edit: Mercop's static line CRKT Companion approaches my idea of
the ideal carry knife.

 

[Coronach]

Plain edge. Serrations suck for anything but sawing.

Fixed blade is better for everything, except concealment, ease of carry and, possibly, legality. You can get around the concealment and ease of carry if you're willing to work at it. That said, it is better to have something, and a folder in the pocket beats a fixed blade in the house. A gun beats both. By a lot. In almost every dimension. If I had the choice of figuing out a way to carry a quality fixed blade or a compact handgun, I would be investing my money and time into carrying the handgun and learning how to use it.

If you're serious about using a knife for defense, you need to train. A lot. And after taking a few knifefighting courses, I have decided that I am going to do my level best to never, ever, be involved in a knife fight. It takes an incredible amount of training and skill to merely become competent, and even competent people get pretty cut up when they go against just about anyone. Think arterial bleeds. Think severed nerves. Think missing digits. It really is a nasty, vicious sort of fight.

Mike

 

[Reddbecca]

A high quality katana.

Katanas are overrated. I'd go with a broadsword if carrying a sword was an option; they're more durable in design if they're used hard.

Nope. Don't do folders. I've never understood that market segment.

In this state the only type of knife you're allowed to carry is a pocket knife with a folding blade, the length of which has to be under 4".

 

[whited]

.

In this state the only type of knife you're allowed to carry is a pocket knife with a folding blade, the length of which has to be under 4".

Bummer. Knife laws, and indeed most weaponry laws, will never cease to
bewilder me. So you can carry a 3.999" folder, but a 2" fixed blade is
verboten. Perhaps I'm thick, but I don't get it. ...

If you can carry a collapsible baton, I would choose that over a small
folding knife every time. If you absolutely must carry a folding knife, consider Emerson or Microtech. If you are wealthy, the Reeve Sebenza
looks like a solid choice.

 

[hso]

What state?

What about the training?

 

[Mandirigma]

OP: Personally I go with fixed blades. Even if I lose one of my custom edc's if it did its job, it was worth it. I can always get another one.

I lost my trust in folders. The only two that have never folded on me were my Benchmade automatic and balisong. The auto is illegal for me to carry. And while there isn't anything that illegal about the bali there is the saying that "You can beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride." and besides, lawyer fees are expensive (that many less knives/guns/ammo)

And after taking a few knifefighting courses, I have decided that I am going to do my level best to never, ever, be involved in a knife fight.

I agree wholeheartedly, and I've been training with sticks/knives since I was young. I've seen enough knife-fights (not here in the states) to know that even the very very good fighters still get cut.

Something my grandfather told me.

If they have empty hands have a knife.
If they have a knife have a stick.
If they have a stick have a machete.
If they have a machete shoot them from a distance.

I know enough to know I don't want to get in close range. Heck I do my grandfather one better, if they have empty hands, knife, stick, or machete I'm going to shoot them.

 

[Reddbecca]

What state?

Kansas.

http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/ks.txt

Kansas - Article 42. Crimes Against the Public Safety;
Weapons Control. Section 21-4201. Criminal use of weapons
is knowingly...
(1) Selling, manufacturing, purchasing, possessing, or
carrying any... knife commonly referred to as a
switchblade knife, which has a blade that opens
automatically by hand pressure applied to a button,
spring, or other device in the handle of the knife, or any
knife having a blade that opens or falls or is ejected
into position by the force of gravity or by an outward,
downward or centrifugal thrust or movement...
(2) carrying concealed on one's person, or possessing the
same with intent to use unlawfully against another, a
dagger, dirk... dangerous knife, straight-edged razor,
stiletto, or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or
instrument of like character, except that an ordinary
pocket knife with no blade more than four inches in length
shall not be construed to be a dangerous knife, or a
dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument...

Kansas Case Law:
- "[city] Ordinance more restrictive than 21-4201 upheld."

What about the training?

Depends on what your definition of "training" is.

 

[hso]

This phrase, "intent to use unlawfully against another", is the critical issue. Since no blade length is mentioned, if you stayed away from anything that looked like a "dagger, dirk,...stiletto" you could carry a fixed blade if you wanted to. That opens your options on price and value up greatly. Since there's no mention about blade length with folders, that helps as well.

An inexpensive fixed blade will be easy (Where's SM when you need him???)

A folder in the stated price range would be folly because below $30 you risk getting products that do not open readily or lock securely making them a greater hazard to you than your attacker.

As to training, have you had or would you take a defensive knife course?

 

[Reddbecca]

This phrase, "intent to use unlawfully against another", is the critical issue.

Growing up in New York, a victim of liberal brainwashing for most of your life, it's hard to get adjusted to the conservative way and not think that you're doing something wrong. I'm still learning.

Since no blade length is mentioned, if you stayed away from anything that looked like a "dagger, dirk,...stiletto" you could carry a fixed blade if you wanted to. That opens your options on price and value up greatly. Since there's no mention about blade length with folders, that helps as well.

You mean like a hunting knife or something?

A folder in the stated price range would be folly because below $30 you risk getting products that do not open readily or lock securely making them a greater hazard to you than your attacker.

I look over the product before I buy it. It has to have a locking feature that works and prevent the blade from going back into a closed position at the wrong time. I also practice with it, learning how to draw it and open it quickly before I consider carrying it with me. Sometimes loosening the screw just a bit allows the blade to open quicker with less effort, but does nothing to reduce the locking feature.

As to training, have you had or would you take a defensive knife course?

Not sure about the defensive part, but when I was living back in New York I...knew people. Learned a number of things that could prove helpful when the only tool at your disposal is a pocket knife.

Keep distance between yourself and the attacker, keep the knife close to you so they can't reach out and latch onto it, avoid the Norman Bates maneuver because its easy to defeat and more harmful to the person using it than the person on the recieving end.

Also learned that making a cut across the arm will be more disabling than a stab to the abdomen, but you've gotta be quick to do it right.

 

[sixgunner455]

In a knife fight, I want a walking stick. I carry one all the time (bad back, sometimes I get balance issues). I'm usually carrying a pocket knife, but it's not usually a lockback, and I haven't carried a tactical folder in a long time. I may start carrying a smallish fixed blade knife, just because. If you want an inexpensive tool in that arena, I'll just second what SM would say if he were here: Old Hickory paring knife, 3-4" blade. Stout, easy to sharpen, and did I mention that it will cost 5 bucks or less?

 

[Hawk]

Yeah, what sixgunner said. Our Lawdog also offers some insight on the stick here.

As far as the knife goes, I've heard good stuff about Bram Frank's courses. You might check around bladeforums as well.

I carry a knife but I'd be a sorry example of fighting with one. FWIW, I've learned that a Chris Reeve Sebenza, plain - no decoration, even in the larger size will not freak out the average attendee of a church bake sale. I've also found that the same can not be said of the Spyderco Civilian.

Quality is always a good idea. It's not neccessary to buy expensive but I'd avoid the single-digit examples like the plague. CRKT has some good stuff for not a lot of money.

 

[waterhouse]

Yes your life is worth the best you can afford to buy, but keep this in mind. If you actually have to use your knife in a serious fight, it'll most likely be taken away from you by the police if the incident is investigated, and it could be months before you ever see your knife again, if at all.

People say the same thing about expensive guns. It makes absolutely no sense to me.

If I had to use my $12,000 car to kill someone to save my life, and the police took it and wouldn't give it back, and my insurance didn't give me a dime, I'd consider it money well spent. I'd celebrate my newfound appreciation for life by buying a new car/gun/knife (not to mention the several thousands of $ is legal fees I may or may not be facing. My point is that the cops taking your knife after you use it to defend yourself shouldn't even be on the list of things you are thinking about when spending money.

These days I usually carry some sort of folder (Benchmade, Emerson, Spyderco) as a utility knife for everyday chores. If I needed something for defense, I'd reach for my Hideaway if I didn't have a gun on me.

I've taken knife defense classes, but no knife "fighting" classes. I do have several years of training in hand to hand stuff, and the Hideaway allows me to use most of these techniques without having to think much about the knife.

 

[telkontar]

Pardon a mere clarification. HSO stated that "intent" was a major issue in the statute.

The statute prohibits 2 separate things:

[1\ carrying concealed on one's person, or [2] possessing the
same with intent to use unlawfully against another, a
dagger, dirk... dangerous knife, straight-edged razor,
stiletto, or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or
instrument of like character, except that an ordinary
pocket knife with no blade more than four inches in length
shall not be construed to be a dangerous knife ... [boldface added]

Carrying a big knife concealed seems to be the prime prohibition. It appears that any knife carried open on a belt would not violate this statute. [I am an attorney in Illinois, but you really need an attorney licensed in Kansas to give you advice on this statute.]

The definition of "dangerous knife" is fishy and I do not know Kansas courts or juries. It seems that a knife that is either 1) not "an ordinary pocket knife" or that 2) has a blade over 4" could very well be considred a dangerous knife. If so, it could not be carried in a concealed fashion.

 

[JTW Jr.]

waterhouse nailed it purfectly

if any of us were concerned with losing something to the authorities in the event we had to in order to defend our lives or those of others , we would all be packing a Lorcin or a Jennings.

in Vegas the biggest blade we can carry concealed is 3". I usually carry 3 knives but they are for cutting stuff , the 1911 is for protection.

 

[Steve1953]

Target area

Probably need to start a new thread for this one but I do have a question for some of you. I have always beed told that the best body area to go for in a knife fight is the lower part of the abdomen (deep stab and twist). Not sure myself as I keep well away from any guy with a knife, but it would be interesting to know if any of you have recieved or given a wound to this part of the body? Or if you think another area of the body is more effective.

Cheers

Steve

 

[jahwarrior]

the best defensive knife is one that shoots 9mm, .40, or .45

seriously, tho, if you're looking for a defensive knife, try looking at cold steel, spyderco, or crkt.

 

[22-rimfire]

My choice is a SOG Twitch II. But I'm not using it in any fight. It's a tool for cutting things. Defensive use is pretty far down the list of intended purposes in my book. If I have time to wave a knife around, I probably have time to make a fast exit. Everybody gets cut in a knife fight. Avoid it.