Knights Vs G.Is

[kannonfyre]

I was having a BS session with my reservist platoon mates last night and we talked about how much medieval a** a present day infantry platoon could kick if both opposing forces were placed on level field with nothing but 400 yards of open ground between them.

The assumption is that the 1200 AD - 1400 AD force would have 1 archer to every 10 axe/sword/spear wielding infantry, and 1 horse mounted lance/sword carrying knight for every 5 ancient infantry. The knights would have platemail and everyone else would have chainmail. Total force = 1000 men.

The modern force would comprise 30 G.Is. The T.O.E would be as such:

3 7.62mm M240s, 6 5.56mm M249s, 3 M-21 sniper rifles, 6 M-16s with M203 grenade launchers, 12 M-16s, 30 M-9 pistols and as much ammo for their weapons as the troops can carry.

We came to the conclusion that the G.Is would kill about 450 - 800 enemy troops before being trampled to death. Any comments?
Do you think the platoon could deal with a larger force?

 

[ZekeLuvs1911]

Well sure......once I call in the Apache Attack Helicopter I got behind that hill over there.....

 

[foghornl]

I was thinking of a flight squad of A-10's, but to each his own

 

[H Romberg]

I think after the real determinant is how much linked ammo they have.

 

[nualle]

both opposing forces were placed on level field with nothing but 400 yards of open ground between them.

30 well-armed, modern infantrymen vs. a high medieval army of 1000 whose complement breaks down to:
769 infantry (spearmen, most likely)
77 archers
154 mounted knights

on an open, level field. Seems to me that the 30 modern guys are toast.

The medievals have more than 2.5x the modern infantry's number in missile-throwers alone. They can protect their archers behind the infantry while they send their knights and a troop or two of infantry for the moderns to busy themselves mowing down.

The modern officer involved ought never to have accepted battle under those conditions. Now if there were some trees... even a bit of high ground, maybe a few big rocks for cover. These change the scenario.

 

[Wilhelm]

The cavalry would be almost useless. They would get mowed by the slug thrower before ever become a threat. Then it depends on if the horses are used to gunpowder or not. As long as the modern soldiers use basic tactics I dont think they would even have go last mand standing against the medievel guys.



Wilhelm

 

[scotjute]

They would probably not be inclined to get caught in the open like that.
However, assuming they were caught in the open, the horses would probably be mowed down as they were not as heavily armored as the knights.
IF horses are not used to the noise of gunfire and explosions, wouldn't they be rather hard to control?
Once the medieval army began to experience horrible casulties at a distance, they would normally break and run.

 

[natedog]

I think the medieval army would run. It would be their first and first-hand experience with guns!

 

[DragonRider]

Also, are the knights European or Arabic or Oriental??? Which are easier to control saying its easier to Martyr? I think religous backing would play a large roll on if they keep charging or cut and run. Look at the TV with a single pickup charging a column of tanks.

I'd say most likely the GI's would win, but with the Arabic or Oriental knights, they would suffer some casulties. Luckily the European are with the longer range bows.

John

 

[gun-fucious]

OK, now lets give the Knights Ceramic and Kevlar Armor and have them form up in the Spartan Phalanx

I still think M203 fire is gonna destroy the toad stickers

A crew served 40mm weapon platform is going to mow the field

 

[bogie]

Okay - what's the max range on a longbow? Not just the max effective range, but the max range for lobbin' 'em in. I suspect that 400 yards is a bit far for it.

I suspect that after the first magazine change, there'd be a buncha folks getting trampled by whichever horses were still standing as they retreat...

 

[Chris Rhines]

I doubt that modern personal weaponry could offset a 34-to-1 numerical disadvantage, in a stand-up, open-field fight. Do it that way, the modern troops would be slaughtered.

If I were the commander of the primitive forces, here's what I would do:

- Rank up the infantry to provide cover for the archers. Hold the cav in reserve.
- Spread the archers out and let them start suppressing the battlefield. Every trooper that gets taken out signifigantly curtails their ability to fight, while the primitives can lose dozens of men without their combat effectiveness being reduced.
- Once the troops are pinned down, maybe have taken a few casualties, send in a hardcore cavalry charge, preferably from the flank. Since the troopers don't have pikemen, they're very vulnerable to a cav charge. I doubt the troopers would be able to stop a cavalry charge with gunfire (it didn't work for archers during the Hundred Years War.) A good horse can cover four hundred yards in thirty or forty seconds from a dead standstill. That's not alot of time to break a charge, especally when there are a bunch of archers trying to turn you into a human pincushion.

Note - I posted this before reading Bogie's post - 400 yards is long range for a medieval archer (I'm assuming Welsh longbows rather than crossbows.) It could be done, though. There are reports of longbowmen bringing down mounted targets during the Hundred Years War at over two-hundred and fifty paces.

If the medieval force closed up the distance it would be worse for the modern troops (less time for them to break the charge.) They would take some casualties in doing so. On the other hand, most of the modern guys are shooting M16s, which wouldn't exactly be my choice for a 400-yard fight either.

The only way for the modern troops to win such a fight would be to go into a fighting withdrawl, get to some cover, and use their mobility advantage to whittle down the medievals.

- Chris

 

[dude]

well, if the poorly trained G.I.s had Aimpoints................

 

[bogie]

Think of it this way - The first "charge" is likely to be broken before the horses make it to within 100 yards of the troops. Even at 400 yards, a .223 slug will go through medieval armor. And those horses generally weren't all that armored. A rider and a horse is a big target for an M249. Figure that the gunners will be able to acquire 'em fairly easily, and figure 20 rounds each. That's 30 of 'em down in the first hundred rounds x 6 gunners.

Add in at least a half-dozen rounds (likely more) of assorted rounds outta the blooper tubes, and the horse mounted troops will be _rapidly_ ineffective.

I'd have my snipers concentrate on the archers. They're the real danger. Everyone else just should pick clustered targets.

 

[tommytrauma]

Wow I haven't been in a discussion like this since I stopped playing D&D in middle school

Has anyone here read '1632' by Eric Flynt? Similar scenerio.

 

[cslinger]

I really cannot believe I am going to reply to this but everybody is looking at things purely academically.

Lets add in the human factor shall we.

Say you are a member of your 1000 strong army feeling pretty good about yourself and your chances. You are big, bad and been working out and ready to kick some butt on the little peasant uprising to your north.

Before the charge is called you suddenly have a few hundred of your buddies litterally get cut down like magic. Explosions are going off, horse guts everywhere and then you hear the charge order.

Mmmm don't know about you but I myself am kicking silver into high gear and going the other way. The moral would disintegrate in no time at all.

In short it wouldn't be pretty.

The modern guys would probably take some wounded by the archers and maybe even some dead but I would think it would be route only rivaled by the Iraqi Army.

Chris

 

[Chris Rhines]

Bogie -

Okay, we'll make it forty seconds, give the modern troops the benefit of the doubt. The cavalry are being held in reserve while the archers are picking targets. Keep in mind that a 14th-century Welsh archer could let go five to eight arrows every minute, which would do quite a nice job of keeping the modern troops heads down. Conversely, covering fire, even with 240Bs and 203s (pretty much a small cannon, less deadly against massed troops) won't work well against archers spread out behind/among 700+ pikemen. So now both sides have taken some casualties, but only the primitives have the manpower to soak them up. Now while the, say, 50 or so archers are keeping the modern troops occupied, the 150 mounted heavy cavalry make an oblique charge. Forty seconds for, say, twenty to twenty-five troops to take down 150 rapidly-moving targets closing the distance from 400 yards to nose-biting distance? While under fire? I wouldn't want to play those odds...

If I wanted to be really nasty, I'd prep for a mass infantry charge while the modern troops were reforming to deal with the cavalry.

- Chris

 

[srschick]

don't forget, you have a means to take out a lot of them with one 40mm grenade launcher (point target range ~500 ft).
Have the snipers pick off archers. that is their long distant weapon. How accurate would you be if you knew your fellow archers are being picked off?

One thing to consider is the playing field. Is it flat, or hilly, or high/low ground?

Also consider how the medieval forces attack. They start with vollies from archers, then attack. Usualy spread on a straight line.

And.. what kind of modern infantry are you talking about?
Army... maybe have a chance, unless special forces/rangers involved.

USMC? do I/you really need to answer that?

 

[Zundfolge]

You also have to take into consideration the ethnicity of your GIs. I mean, how many of your guys are just going to disappear when one of their ancestors is gunned down?

Or just the change in history this battle would cause could effect the procreation habits of the survivors and others in the area thus erasing even more of your GIs.

Tons of paradox to consider here.



But do away with the human factor (ancients being frightened by their "magic" opfor) and the paradox factor and I'd love to see a computer simulation done of this from a tactical standpoint.

 

[bogie]

Archers gotta stand up, and stay still, to shoot. Assuming that the M21 gunners average two rounds/archer, and are shooting 20 round mags, that's 30 archers right there. Add in .223 and 7.62 fire going around/through the peasants/cavalry, and you're gonna get some more.

At this distance, armor only means more fragments of crap in a wound.

400 yards is virtually point blank range for modern weapons, but it'd be on the FAR edge for medieval archery.

The peasants are not going to close to within hand to hand for upwards of a minute, or even two minutes - maybe not even three or four... How fast could YOU run a 400 yard "dash" when burdened with weapons and/or armor, with folks shooting at you?

I'd spread my folks out to avoid giving cluster targets to volley fire from archers. Do I get time to dig in?

Oh, and do my folks have tracers? What are the peasants gonna do when a bunch of light balls float toward 'em, and then folks start exploding around 'em?

It'd be over in 10 seconds, before the cavalry covers 200 yards.

Earlier, I forgot to figure in the heavy machine guns. Those horses are dogfood. The danger is the archers, and considering that our troops can fire 15 (rifle troops) x 30 (2 seconds/shot) accurate shots per minute, they're gonna be hurtin'. That's not counting the psyops from the 249s and 203s...

 

[Chris Rhines]

Archers gotta stand up, and stay still, to shoot.

If the archers were out in the open, they'd be in trouble. But they wouldn't be, they'd be back behind the infantry lines. Lots of cover, lots of concealment, tough shots to make. Especally when they're switching positions every so often, and keeping up a steady five arrows/min rate of fire. You can move while drawing a bow quite well. And if they return fire and take out a few of your snipers... well, like I said. The medievals can afford to lose some men. The modern troops cannot.

400 yards is virtually point blank range for modern weapons, but it'd be on the FAR edge for medieval archery.

400 yards is also beyond the effective range of a .223 M855 (reference innumerable TFL discussions.) Until the infantry lines close with the modern guys, they've got only the 240Bs, the M21s, and the M203s to depend on. And all this while 70+ archers are dumping arrows on 30 dog soldiers. Again, all the primititives have to do is kill a few modern troops for the battle to become totally hopeless.

The peasants are not going to close to within hand to hand for upwards of a minute, or even two minutes...

Doesn't matter. The infantry (we're talking trained foot soldiers, not peasants) only is here to screen the archers until they get close enough for hand-to-hand.

Oh, and do my folks have tracers? What are the peasants gonna do when a bunch of light balls float toward 'em, and then folks start exploding around 'em?

I deliberately left out any consideration of psywar effects, just as being too hard to manage. But if the medievals have faced connon fire before, I doubt tracers will affect them too badly (again, assuming trained and blooded troops.) One could also ask how the modern troops would react to having a buddy getting skewered by a sheaf arrow, or dismembered by some big barbarian-lookin' mutha with a sword...

It'd be over in 10 seconds, before the cavalry covers 200 yards.

Again, the cavalry is moving erratically at upwards of 15mph, charging in from 400+ yards, and the defenders are getting pelted with arrows. Making hits under those conditions would be tougher than you seem to think. I won't even mention whether a .223 is enough gun to drop a charging warhorse in its tracks...

- Chris

 

[srschick]

400 yards is also beyond the effective range of a .223 M855 (reference innumerable TFL discussions.

umm... you (and the rest who refute this) better tell the Marines to drop the 500 meter (547yds) line from the qualification course.
I had no problem hitting COM from 500 yards with an M16A2.
And if you think the bullet has lost all of it's energy by then, would you want to test that out? I've heard of plenty of BG's being taken out at that range with a 5.56.

I won't even mention whether a .223 is enough gun to drop a charging warhorse in its tracks...

Last time I checked, It's hard to get a horse do sh*t without a rider. That horse is just as dangerous to them without someone controlling it.

they've got only the 240Bs, the M21s, and the M203s to depend on.

ONLY!!! that's a crapload of only!

Just tell a platoon of Marines to "fire for effect" (how many of you have seen something like that?)

 

[bogie]

I _rarely_ shoot with open sights.

That said, I can hit a man-sized target at least 50% of the time at 400 yards using an M-16 and single aimed shots. Guys, that's essentially point blank range for that weapon. You use the little aperture, and put the front sight at the top of the head. No problem.

A .223 might not be optimal at 400 yards, but it'll still have the ballistic capability of penetrating any armor that a medieval soldier could field. 400 yards is at the outer limit of the cartridge for prairie dogs. They're a LOT smaller than peasant troops...

The "effective range" stuff is hooey. If you can see it, you can shoot it. It may not be optimal, but you can shoot it.

If you shoot a horse (missing the rider) with a FMJ .223, you're gonna have a hurtin' horse. You may get lucky and hit the rider.

 

[Selfdfenz]

The movie "Zulu" comes to mind.
The 240 cranks at about 600 to 800 per min and you have 3 of them grinding on a massed group. Almost impossible to miss hitting something in the first minute of the charge and the deeper you stack them the more you help the gunners.

How much of the 400 yards could be covered in the first 4 minutes with 8 or 9000 rounds trying to occupy the same area just from the 240s alone. Horses in front, horses in back, makes nor diff. The archers start to become "naked" and hit before they get within range to fire arrow one. Unless the primitives are on opium they would realize thing were going badly and stop before they got half way there.

It would not surprise me with the moderns sustained no losses save their underpants.

S-

 

[cslinger]

"This is my booom Stick!!!"

Comes to mind.

Chris