Knives are serious business.

[Unistat]

Video of a knife weilding crazy attacking cops in Nicaragua.

I don't really want to comment on tactics or anything. I just want to point out something we all probably know. Knives are serious business.

According to the blog, Gunfreezone, this nutjob was a jilted lover outside of the police station where his ex was filing a complaint against him.

Forgot to add: you'll probably want to fast forward to 7:15 or so.

 

[hso]

It dramatically illustrates several things that have been pointed out in S&T and NFW.

The first officer was taken out of the fight immediately.

Running without running to cover isn't always a good solution. Even cover as flimsy as a wire or slat fence helped. Running and tripping made the officers more vulnerable.

If you fall down and can't get to your feet immediately, get your feet up and KICK and keep kicking until you have an opportunity to do something else more effective, like shoot.

We don't know how many times he was hit or where, but 8 or 9 shots were fired. Since he was running it is unlikely that most hit. It is very difficult to hit anyone that is moving. There is no perfect solution to a situation like this.

 

[Jeff F]

I don't know what the lethal force laws are where that happened, but around here LE would have unloaded on that guy. Every one would have had guns on him and and as soon as he charged they would have shot him. The most important thing for LE officers IMO is that they go home safe to their family's every night.

 

[joshk-k]

My impression from the video was that most of the officers were holding either rifles or batons before the melee began, and that he still managed to get two of them down before any shots were fired.

 

[earlthegoat2]

If someone has a decent sized knife that is sharpened appropriately then most of us would not have a chance in most self defense scenarios even if you had a gun.

Unless you saw it coming from quite a distance. Kind of is a sobering thought that if someone WANTS to kill you and they have the jump on you, which will usually be always, then there is nothing you can do.

 

[Six]

This needs to be posted whenever someone suggests you should shoot people in the arms or legs if "all" they have is a knife.

 

[Manco]

We don't know how many times he was hit or where, but 8 or 9 shots were fired. Since he was running it is unlikely that most hit. It is very difficult to hit anyone that is moving.

True, which is why I train for this constantly with Airsoft. I was way too slow at acquiring moving targets and couldn't hit crap a few months ago, but I rarely miss the COM at 7 yards or less now.

There is no perfect solution to a situation like this.

Also true, but I think that the officers in this video could have done a lot better than they did. For one thing, they should have been ready to fire at any moment, but were extremely slow in getting the first (probably inaccurate) shot off, even with several officers present.

The first cop who was attacked got way too close while casually toting his rifle in his weak hand, and elected to bring a nightstick to a knife fight, with predictable results. The rest seemed too afraid to do anything besides running away when the bad guy went after them, and they couldn't even do that effectively.

As for how this tragedy could have been avoided, for one thing a Taser would have come in handy for that first cop. His other hand should have been holding a pistol in that case, ready to fire immediately in case the Taser failed. Staying on the other side of the fence would have been a good idea, too, since he had to come closer than the others and would likely be the first target of an attack (which obviously he was). The other cops should all have been ready to fire because the bad guy was, after all, wielding a deadly weapon.

What this video shows us is how effective and deadly a knife can be when used by somebody who is vicious and quick, and obviously we should respect that and act accordingly, but guns can be even more effective if they are used in the same manner, which clearly wasn't the case here. I'm NOT saying that a person armed with a gun will always prevail over a person armed with a knife--reality just isn't like that, and people can be hard to stop sometimes--but guns do offer range, and should be used while trying to maintain some distance from the knife-wielding (or even barehanded) assailant. From the video, clearly turning tail, running, and tripping is not a good tactic for survival, but backing away and firing rapid, accurate shots (from "retention" if necessary) will at least give you a much better chance.

My impression from the video was that most of the officers were holding either rifles or batons before the melee began, and that he still managed to get two of them down before any shots were fired.

They just weren't prepared for such a basic scenario at all--not only in terms of training, but from appearances it's as though they truly could not believe that the guy would go berserk on them. From what I've seen, that's not common in the US, where cops pretty much expect people to go berserk--it's part of their training.

 

[unwise11]

Personally, I would have shot him before he got a chance to come at me or my friends, they don't even have a real government in that country so why hesitate?

 

[strambo]

No sense in too much Monday morning QB commentary...one thing I will say that really stuck out to me from the start:

Notice how the officer with the magical AK-47 talisman was the most complacent? He was always the closest, kept casually switching it to his non-firing hand. Then decided to go in w/ the night stick as primary. Of course he got stabbed 1st and it sounded like a sucking chest wound (tension pneumothorax).

A firearm has no advantage without distance...

 

[mortablunt]

I put at least 3 practice mags through my airsoft once every two days in order to be ready for something like this. It paid off recently.

 

[Manco]

According to the blog, Gunfreezone,

I just got around to reading the blog entry, and I have to disagree with much of what the blogger says. He seems to believe that a knife is an inherently superior weapon when up close, but that is not necessarily the case if you're as quick with a gun as your opponent is with a knife. It's just that in this particular case (whatever the common case might be), the guy with the knife was faster and far more aggressive than his victims. The blogger also says that lack of training had nothing to do with this, even though these cops essentially weren't trained at all according to him, and I think it's obvious enough that training is very important for both mindset and skill set. As for tool set, guns aren't somehow magically rendered ineffective up close, even though they've lost their advantage of range--just as the person armed with a gun won't always prevail, neither will the one armed with a knife (stab placement matters, too).

Finally, I'm not sure whether he's trying to make a general point about Airsoft, but I've found that it is a great training tool because it allows for realistic training as opposed to facing off against stationary, unarmed paper targets all the time. Used properly, it can help you learn how to fight and survive, not merely shoot (although it helps with that, too).

No sense in too much Monday morning QB commentary...

Why not? There's a lot to critique here that may not be obvious to everybody, particularly beginners. There's still the question of whether we as individuals would perform as we describe under pressure, of course, but knowing what should have been done here still has value.

one thing I will say that really stuck out to me from the start:

Notice how the officer with the magical AK-47 talisman was the most complacent? He was always the closest, kept casually switching it to his non-firing hand.

That's right, guns are certainly not talismans, but these particular cops kind of used them as such, generally expecting people to cower and surrender immediately. One way or another, they were not prepared in any way for determined resistance, nor were they sufficiently aware of the danger they were in, judging by their behavior, and they paid the price for it.

 

[Unistat]

One of my take-aways from this:

A knife is an "instintive" weapon. An untrained person can use it very effectively because it merely enhances a human's own fight reflex, that is, hit it with your fists.

A gun is a "learned" weapon. It takes training to make using a firearm a part of your instinctive fight reflex. If you don't aquire that training, you will be slow to react and may not even get the gun in the fight if your instincts take over and you blugeon or flee.

 

[IlikeSA]

I was surprised that the knife wielder kept moving after what sounded like a solid hit to the chest or arm by the nightstick. I think I may change my vote on the thread titled "knife vs stick." Perhaps only a solid head hit from a stick may stop a knife wielding attacker.

 

[Remo223]

I was surprised that the knife wielder kept moving after what sounded like a solid hit to the chest or arm by the nightstick. I think I may change my vote on the thread titled "knife vs stick." Perhaps only a solid head hit from a stick may stop a knife wielding attacker.

he was fast. Someone that is fast and skilled can move just enough to make a blow glance. Skilled fighters do this without even thinking about it. Its an automatic reflex. If he's good, you won't ever get a solid head hit.

 

[Remo223]

That was a large knife and apparently sharpened very well. The knife wielder was very determined and quite physically capable...very quick, etc.

I will not be too critical of the cops(or whatever they were) for being complacent. I'm sure 99% of the time when 5 or 6 cops with guns surround a guy with a knife he becomes cooperative. They probably have done this before a few times and never had a problem. It looked to me like they were doing what they have done before and they acted like they were certain it would work.

Obviously this time they were wrong.

I disagree with the strategy of distance. obviously none of those cops can move as fast as that guy with the knife. He was in good shape. I couldn't move as fast as him either. I think the best strategy would be to use something as a shield. A coat wrapped around your left hand/forearm, a board, whatever. left hand is a shield...get close enough you can't miss, then unload the gun as fast as you can into his face/neck. If you can't obtain a decent shield, drop to the ground on your back when he's within striking distance, with feet up to his chest/waist to hold him just out of cutting distance, and unload your gun into his face/neck.

out of 10 to 20 rounds at point blank range to the skull/neck, half or more of your shots should be lethal, and one or two should be instant fight stoppers. you just gotta last a few seconds without taking a stab to the torso is all.

 

[phoglund]

The most disheartening thing about this video for me was watching the cops run, trip, roll on their back and essentially do nothing while the guy stabbed them. I can understand the fear having somebody attack with steel but some defensive action might have at least moderated the impact of the attack!

 

[MachIVshooter]

We don't know how many times he was hit or where, but 8 or 9 shots were fired.

Looked to me like only one found it's mark to the upper left chest/shoulder.

Not sure why you would wait that long to fire when you have a man in good physical condition weilding an 8" knife less than 20 feet from you.

Some years ago, Denver PD came under some heat for shooting and killing a man who charged them with a knife when it turned out that he was mentally retarded. I guess some people doon't understand that a retarded man with a knife is just as dangerous as any other attacker. IMO, they did the right thing.

If a man with a knife is threatening me and comes inside of that 20 foot mark, I will fire. The amount of time it takes for him to close that distance is barely enough to react. It would seem that these officers didn't understand that.

 

[Grey_Mana]

I hope and pray that the victims survive and heal ok.

That situation could have been avoided by de-escalation, respect, and patience. Whatever the reasons were for surrounding him, making noises behind him, throwing stuff around, and finally crossing that wire fence - those reasons weren't good enough. A better way would have been to have sat down on your side of the fence, talked with him, tried to get him to talk, maybe had somebody go get some nice lemonade. Get him to talk until he is tired of talking.

 

[MachIVshooter]

That situation could have been avoided by de-escalation, respect, and patience. Whatever the reasons were for surrounding him, making noises behind him, throwing stuff around, and finally crossing that wire fence - those reasons weren't good enough. A better way would have been to have sat down on your side of the fence, talked with him, tried to get him to talk, maybe had somebody go get some nice lemonade. Get him to talk until he is tired of talking.

I disagree. A person who refuses to comply and remains extremely hostile when surrounded by a half dozen armed men is not demonstrating that he can be reasoned with. A man who charges gun weilding police officers with a knife proves that he isn't reasonable.

 

[RudeMood]

I remember watching this a few ?months? ago. It was linked to me from my self-defense instructor, with a short quote from him along the line of "always be ready".

I have to say that after watching the video, and even thinking about it now, has had a very sobering effect. I was appalled, and sit even now in silence. NOT because of the violence, but instead because of the reaction to it. So many questions run through my head. They obviously were caught unprepared. Were they unprepared due to lack of training? Hostile response laws? The assumption that the guy would become compliant? I don't speak spanish. I wasn't there. SO it's all conjecture at this point.

What I took away from it: Even "trained professionals" can't always deal with any scenario. Awareness CAN and WILL save your life. Don't let your guard down if you can help it.

 

[Manco]

I disagree with the strategy of distance. obviously none of those cops can move as fast as that guy with the knife. He was in good shape. I couldn't move as fast as him either. I think the best strategy would be to use something as a shield. A coat wrapped around your left hand/forearm, a board, whatever. left hand is a shield...get close enough you can't miss, then unload the gun as fast as you can into his face/neck. If you can't obtain a decent shield, drop to the ground on your back when he's within striking distance, with feet up to his chest/waist to hold him just out of cutting distance, and unload your gun into his face/neck.

To each their own, but for me, no thanks! Forget the shield because there would be no time for that even if something useful were conveniently at your feet, and if you had one ready ahead of time you could still back away in order to buy some additional time to put more bullets in him. I wouldn't let him get close to me before firing--I'd start firing immediately. He'll be faster since he's running forward while I'm backpedaling, so he'll eventually reach me (unless he drops), but not before I put some serious lead in him (if I couldn't do that, then I'd train until I could). Only then will I worry about the knife, which I'd deal with by kicking him away and putting more bullets into him if he's still miraculously frisky. I guess I'm a real spoilsport when it comes to personal defense.

 

[Remo223]

My instincts are that of a boxer since I was one once. I'd probably be in boxer's stance going TOWARDS the knife wielder. Pistol in right hand, as if ready for a right cross to the face...but the bullets do the punching...left had reserved for jabs and blocks and grabbing the opponents right arm if the opportunity comes.

 

[RatDrall]

I just got around to reading the blog entry, and I have to disagree with much of what the blogger says. He seems to believe that a knife is an inherently superior weapon when up close, but that is not necessarily the case if you're as quick with a gun as your opponent is with a knife.

The gun is only dangerous in one direction, and runs out of bullets. You can't grab a knife and keep it pointed away from you and be safe, and it doesn't run out of ammunition...

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I disagree with the strategy of distance.

Well, you've got a ranged weapon and your opponent has a contact weapon. I think distance is a pretty feasible strategy since the more distance you have, the more time you have. As you noted, it may not have been easy to maintain that distance once he made a committed effort to close it; but there were several natural obstacles present that could have helped with that - for example, the AK47 toting officer was on the other side of a barbed wire fence. That obstacle would have given him extra time to use a weapon had he not elected to give up that position while simultaneously putting aside his ranged weapon in favor of a contact weapon.

If that doesn't work, you can always try the methods you suggested; but in any fight of ranged weapon vs. contact weapon, distance is a pretty big advantage and not something you give up unless there is no other option.

 

[hso]

If at all possible you should not give up the advantage of distance and a ranged weapon against someone with a knife. That means maintaining an 8 yard separation and enforcing it. You can introduce obstacles/cover and reduce that distance slightly, but keep in mind that an obstacle to a mobile person with a knife isn't the same as others.

If the person with the knife is attempting to close that distance or negotiate that obstacle you should consider yourself under attack and defend yourself.

If you are within the sudden close range of someone with a knife you had better treat it as a contact fight.

The officers did not take the knife wielder seriously enough and paid a horrible price.