Knockdown in thick mountainous brush

[CarJunkieLS1]

Gonna have to agree with JMR40 if you want DRT performance in terms of Down Right There and not necessarily Dead Right There the shoulder shot is the only way to go. You put that 45-70 in a deer or bears shoulder it WON'T go anywhere but down.

 

[BlondeBear63]

Gonna have to agree with JMR40 if you want DRT performance in terms of Down Right There and not necessarily Dead Right There the shoulder shot is the only way to go. You put that 45-70 in a deer or bears shoulder it WON'T go anywhere but down.

Given "Dead Right There" isn't too likely, "Down Right There" is appealing. I would rather a follow-up shot than follow all through the night, with the possibility of game loss. Is there a real and valid reason for choosing the 45/70 over the 30/30?

 

[Willie Sutton]

"Thanks Willie. Your African insights are something I have considered, but with trepidation as I haven't any real experiences with chest trauma associated with such a shot. I wouldn't want to follow a bear with a busted up leg into thick brush. Any ideas how well the 170 gr 30/30 would perform?"


If you break both shoulders you'll also take out vital blood vessels. Nothing is going very far like that before expiring.

I can't speak to the .30-30 for this, as I've never hunted with the cartridge. I can observe that you're not going to find factory loaded solids in that caliber, and I'm unsure if you can find handloading bullets in solids that are safe for tubular magazines. You probably can, but I would have to do some research. You want a deep penetrator, not an expanding bullet for this use, driven as fast as possible. I'm not sure the .30-30 is the right choice but if you are limited to that, I'd at least study the possibilities. A .30-06 handloaded with solids would be pretty darned good, but unsure if you have access to one.


Willie

.

 

[3212]

A shoulder shot with the one you're most accurate with is the best advice IMO.I've taken 16 whitetails with the 30-30 and witnessed the gamut of reactions.Most have died at about 50 yards,some drt and some 100 yards.All were shot from the ribs forward with 170 grain corelokts.Most at ranges under 100 yards in an area like you describe.As I remember,all were pass throughs with good blood trails.I never shot a bear or fired a 45-70.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Before we go too far down the "African game" route the OP needs to check the law in his local.

It's not unusual for regulations to specifically prohibit FMJ or non expanding bullets for hunting.

Granted a hard cast bullet of the right hardness can do the same thing. But are these a commercially viable option for the OP

 

[BlondeBear63]

Before we go too far down the "African game" route the OP needs to check the law in his local.

It's not unusual for regulations to specifically prohibit FMJ or non expanding bullets for hunting.

Granted a hard cast bullet of the right hardness can do the same thing. But are these a commercially viable option for the OP

FMJ not allowed. Remington Core-Lokt will be used as it is available off the shelf.

 

[BlondeBear63]

A shoulder shot with the one you're most accurate with is the best advice IMO.I've taken 16 whitetails with the 30-30 and witnessed the gamut of reactions.Most have died at about 50 yards,some drt and some 100 yards.All were shot from the ribs forward with 170 grain corelokts.Most at ranges under 100 yards in an area like you describe.As I remember,all were pass throughs with good blood trails.I never shot a bear or fired a 45-70.

Thanks 3212. I am looking for real world feedback like yours.

 

[BlondeBear63]

Game Killing Fundamentals

Here is the link to which I originally referred. It is VERY informative:

http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Kno...rect)|utmcmd=(none)&__utmv=-&__utmk=213111444

 

[back40]

I agree with what has been previously said regarding DRT and the many factors that are involved.

I took last season's 7 pointer (135# field dressed) with a .30-30 170gr corelokt. it was a 55yd shot with iron sights that passed completely through. one lung was liquefied and the other was in 2 or three pieces iirc. can't recall what damage to the heart if any. he ran 20yards and flopped.

in my mind the question is whether you can place a shot as accurately with the .45-70 as you can with the .30-30. both of mine wear irons and i regularly shoot them out to 160 yds. however, some guys are affected by the .45-70's recoil and shoot them less proficiently.

if you shoot them equally well, i'd probably choose the .45-70 if interested in bear.

 

[Davek1977]

All other things being equal, I'm going with the obvious answer that a bigger hole is a better hole in terms of anchoring game on the spot. Bigger hole=more damage=more blood loss/bone damage=less distance traveled

 

[BlondeBear63]

All other things being equal, I'm going with the obvious answer that a bigger hole is a better hole in terms of anchoring game on the spot. Bigger hole=more damage=more blood loss/bone damage=less distance traveled

I am a fan of bigger bullets, to an extent. It must be "shootable" and easy to carry. A 5 lb. short-barreled BMG would definitely anchor them. However, I have to be practical, using that which I have fairly easy access. This means choosing the 45/70 or 30/30. And from I gather, the 30/30 is being touted better than the 45/70, using factory loads.

 

[BlondeBear63]

That's weird. I'm not sure how "energy" is measured in the context of firearms, but I would think it would have a lot to do with momentum.

If a .30-30 bullet of 170 grains is zipping through the air at about 1800 FPS, it's momentum is 306,000 g f/s.

In contrast, a .45-70 bullet of 400 grains plowing through the air at 1500 FPS has a momentum of 600,000 g f/s. Nearly twice the momentum of the smaller, faster round. But less energy?

I double checked the Remington website as well as plugged and chugged the velocity and mass to find the published energies are correct. In off-the-shelf Remington rounds available to me, the 30/30 has greater energy than the 45/70. Who would'a thunk it?

 

[BlondeBear63]

Current Conclusion:

From all the great help and input, I believe the best answer to my question is the use of the 170 grain 30/30 grain Core-Lokt aimed at taking out the shoulder "African style". I would have thought the 45/70 a better choice.

Many thanks to all contributors!

 

[RPRNY]

Hydrostatic shock and related trump is, at best, something that may happen when super velocity bullets strike very close to central nervous tissue or inelastic organs. At best. The science, such as it is, suggests it may only exist in reality through exposure to high explosives. In any event, neither the 30-30 nor the 45-70 are going to deliver any velocity enhanced damage. I love the 30-30, especially my Marlin 336 Texan. For deer and black bear in the Northeast, where the former are generally 150 lbs or less and then latter 250 lbs or less and tracking is less challenging than the conditions you describe, that would be my choice.

In your case, 45-70. In the event that you do not make a central nervous debilitating shot, you will rely on blood loss. That 405 Core-lokt is going to make a bigger, leakier hole and will very likely be through and through even on your big black bear. The low velocity means less meat damage, a distinct benefit to these non-hydrostatic rounds. Bigger,leakier hole better.

 

[buck460XVR]

Allow me to summarize:

1. Even with a good shot, there are no guarantees of a DRT.
2. You're hunting in a place where only a DRT guarantees recovery of the animal.
3. If there is a chance you won't recover the animal, don't take the shot. (See #2, or, more simply, guarantee a DRT or don't take the shot. See #1 - There is no guarantee of a DRT.)

Ergo, don't take the shot. Don't even hunt there.

Pretty much sums it up. Over the years, I've had deer drop in their tracts from a high shoulder hit and never take another step and then I've shot other deer in the same general area and they've gone 40 yards before going down using three legs or pushing themselves along with just their hind legs. I've butchered deer that were hit in the shoulders and seen massive damage done to joints on both sides. I've also butchered deer where there was a just a clean hole thru both shoulder blades. The difference in the hit was a matter of only a inch or two. The bullet and the gun were the same.

You seem to be looking for the "magic bullet", the "Holy Grail" so many hunters are searching for. The one bullet that will work in the guns you have, and will put that animal down in it's tracks every time. That quest many times brings folks to internet gun forums in hopes that somewhere someone has the answer that seems to elude so many. The reason the answer is so elusive is because there is none. Despite what bullet manufacturers want to tell you....and what you are hoping for , there are no "magic Bullets". The hit will make more of a difference than the bullet in either of the guns you have using readily available factory ammo. Without hitting the CNS, you will never be guaranteed a DRT. A 30-06 with more velocity and capable of shooting a heavier bullet would make more of a difference than any bullet outta a 30-30 or 45-70. Even then, a DRT everytime is not going to be guaranteed.

I have hunted a large area of dense swamps for most of my life. I know all too well what a poor hit means when you are following a blood trail when standing in water up to your waist and the sun in setting behind the trees. I too sought out every bullet combo possible in attempt to make it easier. After 40 years, I realized shot placement and shot choices, whether with a bow or gun was paramount. Even then, there are so many variables that play a part, that nuttin' is guaranteed. Nowadays I hunt deer with handguns only. Shot placement and shot choices are even more important now, especially when you add my old age to the story. I hardly ever take a shot in the deep swamps anymore unless it's early in the day and one of the two boys are with me. Otherwise it just ain't worth it. In other hunting areas, where retrieval is easier, it's different. I believe this is where you will end up. You either have to accept the fact that the retrieval will be a long and tedious task....or you don't pull the trigger. Or you find a different place to hunt.

 

[BlondeBear63]

Hydrostatic shock and related trump is, at best, something that may happen when super velocity bullets strike very close to central nervous tissue or inelastic organs. At best. The science, such as it is, suggests it may only exist in reality through exposure to high explosives. In any event, neither the 30-30 nor the 45-70 are going to deliver any velocity enhanced damage. I love the 30-30, especially my Marlin 336 Texan. For deer and black bear in the Northeast, where the former are generally 150 lbs or less and then latter 250 lbs or less and tracking is less challenging than the conditions you describe, that would be my choice.

In your case, 45-70. In the event that you do not make a central nervous debilitating shot, you will rely on blood loss. That 405 Core-lokt is going to make a bigger, leakier hole and will very likely be through and through even on your big black bear. The low velocity means less meat damage, a distinct benefit to these non-hydrostatic rounds. Bigger,leakier hole better.

Thanks for your input. There is a bit more to the story. Concerning hydrostatic shock, it is the same thing as being hit by an uppercut. in bare knuckle fighting. The force of the jaw being slamming into the skull at the mandible or through the teeth transmit a shock that causes blackout. In today's boxing there are mouth pieces as well as gloves that make the haymaker work by concussion of the brain. I am exploring whether anyone has any experiences in dispatching deer and/or bear using shot placement that causes enough significant hydrostatic shock to render them DRT.
As far as blood trails, with a black bear, forget it. Their fur sops up almost all of it. Too, it took a bit of double checking and rechecking to get used to the idea the 170 grain 30/30 Core-Lokt has better all around ballistics, including energy, than the 405 grain 45/70. Thanks again for your input.

 

[BlondeBear63]

Pretty much sums it up. Over the years, I've had deer drop in their tracts from a high shoulder hit and never take another step and then I've shot other deer in the same general area and they've gone 40 yards before going down using three legs or pushing themselves along with just their hind legs. I've butchered deer that were hit in the shoulders and seen massive damage done to joints on both sides. I've also butchered deer where there was a just a clean hole thru both shoulder blades. The difference in the hit was a matter of only a inch or two. The bullet and the gun were the same.

You seem to be looking for the "magic bullet", the "Holy Grail" so many hunters are searching for. The one bullet that will work in the guns you have, and will put that animal down in it's tracks every time. That quest many times brings folks to internet gun forums in hopes that somewhere someone has the answer that seems to elude so many. The reason the answer is so elusive is because there is none. Despite what bullet manufacturers want to tell you....and what you are hoping for , there are no "magic Bullets". The hit will make more of a difference than the bullet in either of the guns you have using readily available factory ammo. Without hitting the CNS, you will never be guaranteed a DRT. A 30-06 with more velocity and capable of shooting a heavier bullet would make more of a difference than any bullet outta a 30-30 or 45-70. Even then, a DRT everytime is not going to be guaranteed.

I have hunted a large area of dense swamps for most of my life. I know all too well what a poor hit means when you are following a blood trail when standing in water up to your waist and the sun in setting behind the trees. I too sought out every bullet combo possible in attempt to make it easier. After 40 years, I realized shot placement and shot choices, whether with a bow or gun was paramount. Even then, there are so many variables that play a part, that nuttin' is guaranteed. Nowadays I hunt deer with handguns only. Shot placement and shot choices are even more important now, especially when you add my old age to the story. I hardly ever take a shot in the deep swamps anymore unless it's early in the day and one of the two boys are with me. Otherwise it just ain't worth it. In other hunting areas, where retrieval is easier, it's different. I believe this is where you will end up. You either have to accept the fact that the retrieval will be a long and tedious task....or you don't pull the trigger. Or you find a different place to hunt.

Hi Buck,

You sound like you're one of our'n. While I was sort of hoping for a "Holy Grail", I wasn't expecting it. My first deer was taken using a 20 gauge slug at 25 yards, was a complete pass through shot that also cut a 1 1/2" sapling cleanly in two. That deer was DRT, not tore up and I would like to be able to repeat that affect at 45-90 yards and up to 125 yards. I take only ethical shots as I like to hunt, whether or not I make a kill. Being outdoors is the best part.
The bottom line? I have actually gained great insight. Willie's suggestion to go "African style" will be tried as having the animal incapable of going a great way on all four is good advice. So this forum and all of its contributors have been a great aid to a real hunter, not just some armchair animal killer.
I am really interested in your handgun hunting and have considered such. I have a Ruger Super Blackhawk that I always carry while hunting. However, I am considering something else since hearing of a few incidents. My best hunting buddy was turkey hunting this Spring and when coming back down the mountain found bear tracks following his size 11s. He showed me the pictures and they are huge tracks, much bigger than his boots. Too, after telling another acquaintance of my buddy's experience, he relayed that one of his friends was deer hunting and, when he turned around to leave, there was a 400 lb bear watching him less than 40 yards away. Another friend of his had a similar experience with a mountain lion! Yet another hunting friend of mine had a 250 lb black climb the tree he was in and he couldn't get a shot due to the angle of the stand and had to shoot downward to scare it off. This has me considering whether I should go with a double action.
How is your handgun rigged? Do lasers work well? Tell me more.

 

[twofifty]

Given "Dead Right There" isn't too likely, "Down Right There" is appealing. I would rather a follow-up shot than follow all through the night, with the possibility of game loss. Is there a real and valid reason for choosing the 45/70 over the 30/30?

I've encountered a few of those TN and Carolina bears while hiking. The OPs reluctance to track one of them off of nice old Smokey bald into a dark rhody forest makes sense.

 

[buck460XVR]

This has me considering whether I should go with a double action.
How is your handgun rigged? Do lasers work well? Tell me more.

For SD against dangerous game DA is nice to have. For true hunting type scenarios, SA is always gonna be more accurate. That's why it's nice to have both options available.

MY state, like many others, does not allow for the use of lasers for hunting. I use traditional open sights......IMO, what handgun hunting is all about. Over the last few years, I've had to pass on many shots with my handguns that would have been "gimmees" with my scoped ought-six. Very similar to hunting with a bow. Part of the progression of many hunters is the focus turning to the hunt itself and not the kill, or the amount of game in the back of the truck. Many times, knowing one had a shot and decided to pass is more satisfying than the trailing/dragging of an animal from a remote area, especially if it is not a special animal. Used to be I would shoot any buck, any where and do whatever it took to get it out. Nowadays, the amount of work after the shot is a big consideration. Lately, I'd rather shoot a nice doe close to the truck or road as opposed to a fair buck a mile back in. Used to be the other way around. Used to be, I had to come back with something or it was not a successful hunt. Anymore, it's a success just to get out.

Good to see you are realistic in your expectations. So many come here and to other gun forums and think that when they fail, it is because the bullet, the bow or some other equipment failed them. Truth is, that is rarely the case. Truth is, more times than not, they are the ones that let themselves and the quarry down.

Part of the reason I enjoyed hunting the tough area I did is because of the challenges it presented. It is still why I go back even tho I now have easier places to hunt. The bucks are smaller and fewer, but the challenge is what makes for the trophy. It's not for everyone. It ain't about the braggin' rights or the mount on the wall. It's about the satisfaction and the feeling I get from the hunt there itself. To those that don't understand, it ain't worth the trouble to try and explain.

 

[BlondeBear63]

For SD against dangerous game DA is nice to have. For true hunting type scenarios, SA is always gonna be more accurate. That's why it's nice to have both options available.

MY state, like many others, does not allow for the use of lasers for hunting. I use traditional open sights......IMO, what handgun hunting is all about. Over the last few years, I've had to pass on many shots with my handguns that would have been "gimmees" with my scoped ought-six. Very similar to hunting with a bow. Part of the progression of many hunters is the focus turning to the hunt itself and not the kill, or the amount of game in the back of the truck. Many times, knowing one had a shot and decided to pass is more satisfying than the trailing/dragging of an animal from a remote area, especially if it is not a special animal. Used to be I would shoot any buck, any where and do whatever it took to get it out. Nowadays, the amount of work after the shot is a big consideration. Lately, I'd rather shoot a nice doe close to the truck or road as opposed to a fair buck a mile back in. Used to be the other way around. Used to be, I had to come back with something or it was not a successful hunt. Anymore, it's a success just to get out.

Good to see you are realistic in your expectations. So many come here and to other gun forums and think that when they fail, it is because the bullet, the bow or some other equipment failed them. Truth is, that is rarely the case. Truth is, more times than not, they are the ones that let themselves and the quarry down.

Part of the reason I enjoyed hunting the tough area I did is because of the challenges it presented. It is still why I go back even tho I now have easier places to hunt. The bucks are smaller and fewer, but the challenge is what makes for the trophy. It's not for everyone. It ain't about the braggin' rights or the mount on the wall. It's about the satisfaction and the feeling I get from the hunt there itself. To those that don't understand, it ain't worth the trouble to try and explain.

Hi Buck,
Growing up on a farm, I have done plenty of killing. True hunting, that is a different thing. I try to be understanding of those who don't have my background in killing. If it weren't for putting meat in the freezer, I would probably pick up a camera.
I am an ethical hunter who likes the challenges of planning and executing a gratifying hunt. Time spent scouting and observing is better than that spent tracking and dragging out an animal that ran deep in thick brush. And to this end, I asked the questions in the OP.
Only once can I say the ammo was at fault. Otherwise, it was my lack of preparation of the gun, scope, etc. I gained my smarts early in life by adopting the attitude to readily admit I was wrong or did not know and ask to be taught what was right and truthful. Amazing how much one can learn by listening to someone who knows rather than defending one's own mis-beliefs. "OK, I guess I might not understand it right. Could you show me the right way?" Some of the wisest words.
"It's about the satisfaction and the feeling I get from the hunt there itself. To those that don't understand, it ain't worth the trouble to try and explain." Like I said, you're one of our'n.
Thanks for all you help.

 

[olafhardtB]

Even a CNS hit does not guarantee DRT. I was once attacked by a guinea after I chopped its head off. For the energy theorist a warm cup of coffee delivers more energy to your mouth and throat than several hits with a 30-06. If momentum is your thing a well pitched soft ball is better bear protection than a 30-06. In short, if you shoot the critter and it is DRT, then it is DRT. If it isn't it isn't.

 

[BlondeBear63]

Even a CNS hit does not guarantee DRT. I was once attacked by a guinea after I chopped its head off. For the energy theorist a warm cup of coffee delivers more energy to your mouth and throat than several hits with a 30-06. If momentum is your thing a well pitched soft ball is better bear protection than a 30-06. In short, if you shoot the critter and it is DRT, then it is DRT. If it isn't it isn't.

Being both raised on a farm as well as a hunter I have dispatched a LOT of animals. After cleanly chopping the head off a chicken, it ran 20', took off as pretty as you please, flew 40' and reached a height of twenty before veering to the right and landing atop the barn's lean-too. I stood 4' from a 1000 lb steer my uncle shot in the head with a .22 Short. That steer was so dead, it shook the ground when it hit. I have also had squirrels come back to life in my hunting vest after falling 60' from trees and landing on hard surfaces. Killing isn't exact, and the OP concerned avoiding protracted and difficult recoveries.
Concerning energy, the amount of energy to heat a cup of coffee is about 10 Joules. A 30-06 165 grain bullet moving at 2,800 ft/s has 3,894 Joules of energy. Unless I am seriously errant, I think most people will take their chances swallowing a hot cup of coffee than a 30-06 bullet at speed. Not many people survive eating bullets. Too, I believe the vast majority of people who traverse country with bears are likely to choose a gun over a softball.
Again, my OP concerned reducing or eliminating difficult game recovery.

 

[olafhardtB]

1 BTU= 1055.6 joules
8oz coffee by weight is 1/2#
1/2#/cup×(138.6°F-98.6°F)×1BTU/#°F= 20BTU/cup×1055.6 joules/BTU=20116 joules/cup.
Sounds like a clip of 30-06 to me. My point here is that numbers don't kill and death is not that predictable. I am truly delighted to read your chicken execution story and to discuss cartridge effectiveness with someone who has actually seen and killed living critters. I read people talking about bird shot not being effective for home defence and my mind goes back to helping a buddy clean a hoodlum sized hog he had introduced to one 16 gauge load of 6's at self defense distance. Heck, everything I ever shot from hogs to grasshoppers with a 22 either died or ran off. Isn't that the goal in self defence? But I still keep a 357 handy cause I can.

 

[short barrel]

I've used both extensively. I finally settled on the 45/70 with factory Remington 405 grain soft points. Although I've never shot a bear, I've shot deer-o-plenty with both the 30/30 and the 45/70. Never ever has a deer walked or ran away from the 45/70, but I've had tracking jobs too many times with the 30/30.

 

[short barrel]

I forgot to say that in the mountains of VA where I hunt, I'm faced with the same Appalachian ridges. Shots I would not take with the 30/30 due to the awful terrain are no problem with the 45/70. Mine is the H&R Buffalo Classic. I installed brass sights from Skinner. A reasonably large rear peep and a brass blade on the front. I'm good to 150 yards, but where I hunt, such opportunities are rare. Most shots are under 75.