Knoxx sidewinder

[walking arsenal]

While at a gun show a while back i was introduced to an item called the knoxx sidewinder http://www.denkins.com/knoxx_sidewinder.htm it's a device that allows you to use either 10 round drum magazines or 6 round stick mags on your mossberg shotgun.

I thought it looked like an interesting idea at the time so ive been saving up my pennies and have been thinking about getting one. In my opinion the weak point of a shotgun is the slow reloads, this would speed reloads up a bit and although the drums would be a bit unweildley i think the stick mags would help keep ammo oraganized rather than loose on sidesaddles or in bandoliers. It would also keep a high capacity of rounds in a compact package.

The cons i could see to it would be that the mags may get in the way of running the pump, knoxx has provided a handle that points out at a 45 degree angle to solve this but i could see that getting in the way too. another possibility is that the design could be more complicated than most shotgunners would like, personally the less parts the better.

If i order one ill post the results, can anyone else give a report or opinion on these?

 

[Preacherman]

WA, a couple of questions to ask yourself whenever you see a new ubertactical gizmo for any gun:

1. Who are the real (I mean REAL) professionals who use the gun in question (i.e. bet their lives on it)?

2. How many of them are using this device/thingy/gizmo/ammo/whatever?

If the answer to (2) is none, or very few, there's a reason...

 

[LoadedDrum]

Do a google search for something called a Tec Loader. It is the shotgun equivalent of SKS stripper clips. Very popular in 3 gun competition

 

[walking arsenal]

preacherman

Thats a good point.

But it is a new(er?) design, and agencies are rather slow on the uptake for new ideas.

was browsing the DPMS website and found some stuff i want so ill wait on this gizmo for another time i s'pose.

 

[LoadedDrum]

The one issue I have with Preacherman's post is that most professionals are forced to use what their agency allows.

 

[walking arsenal]

oooooo, also a good point.

 

[Preacherman]

That's actually my point. Most agencies that I know will have no problem equipping their staff with weapons that are effective, efficient, etc. Cost is certainly a factor, but if the benefits offered by a particular gadget outweigh the cost, it's usually not a problem to get approval for its purchase. On the other hand, if the benefits don't outweigh the cost, it's unlikely to be bought. Conclusion: if they haven't bought it, it's unlikely that the device's benefits outweigh its cost...

An example would be night sights: most agencies I know buy these with their guns, as a standard item, because their effectiveness is proven. Similarly, flashlights, etc. - if the agency doesn't buy these, cops will buy their own, and if you look at the lights carried by cops who are street-wise, it's an excellent recommendation for the Surefire line! However, I don't see any agency spending a lot of money on ubertactical add-ons to shotguns, simply because they're not really necessary.

I agree that the concept of a ten-round magazine for a shotgun is a good one. However, when you look at the bulk added to the weapon (which can be a factor in confined spaces), and the added weight, and the need to become familiar with an ammo system that is completely different from the usual shotgun system... I don't see that much advantage to it.

 

[8830]

This is just another thing to fail when you need your gun to work. It looks real good but try clearing a building with all that on. I'll stick with a regular shotgun.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Something we tend to forget at times is that a stock, out of the box shotgun is an awesome weapon as is.

A shotgun is simply a device to direct a cloud or clouds of shot to a given target at a given time and to do so comfortably to the operator.

Anything that aids that is worthy. All else is just bling.

The question here is just how often in the real world does anyone need to shoot a shotgun 10 times without pausing to reload? Balance that off against weight and size gains.

Second question. How much weight can YOU handle in a crisis before it becomes unmanageable and fatiguing?

The M-14 was withdrawn from issue to troops because it weighed too much for many of them to handle under the rigors of combat. At 9 1/2 lbs, it weighs about what a tricked out 870 with light, SS and mag extensions does.

 

[LoadedDrum]

One reason I can think of that you do not see the Sidewinder in too many (if any) patrol cars is that the departments who can afford to put Sidewinders on their issue shotguns also issue AR's. Why bother with 10rds of buck when you can have 30 rounds of 5.56. This also goes for the departments where the cops supply their own guns. Who wants to pay $250 plus N times $99 for more mags when that cost would easily pay for a surplus AR at police discount pricing.

Preacherman, I hope you are right and things have changed every where since North Hollywood. I would hate to think cops are out there with gear approved because it is PC and not TC.

 

[walking arsenal]

one reason i could think of is that you can throw out nine pellets with a single squeeze of the trigger while with the AR it would take 9 squeezes.

9*10= 90 rounds of 5.56 or 3 30 round mags OR 10 rounds of 00 buck.

I think there are those on this board who would agree that more often than not it takes several pulls on the trigger per target with the AR.

one or two with a shotty?

having never engaged a live social target i wouldnt know the answer.

but thats my .02

 

[Correia]

I actually just got one of these for testing purposes. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

 

[iiibdsiil]

I love it. I want to buy it just to hang on my wall and stare at. I would much rather have an AK, but that's just me. But, I already own a 500A, so I am checking this out.

 

[walking arsenal]

correia

definantly let us know how that thing works! I'm still thinking about getting one myself.

BTW, how does that thing work? I mean how does it feed the shells from the mag?

 

[walking arsenal]

BTW correia

If you dont like it can i have first dibs on buying the thing from you?

 

[Correia]

Certainly. You've got first dibs. I'll let you guys know how it works.

 

[LoadedDrum]

1 pellet of 00 is in no way better, let alone even equivalent to 1 round of 5.56 within its fragmentation range. Even when the 5.56 is out of its fragmentation range it is still better than a pellet of buck shot at the same range. Shot works because there is a lot of it, period.

 

[Third_Rail]

If Correia finds something wrong with it, I don't want one!

 

[walking arsenal]

loaded


how do you figure?

 

[LoadedDrum]

Lets do the math here.

1 pellet of 00 buck is about 48 grains, where as M193 is 55 grains. 5.56 is more aerodynamic and moves faster. Heavier + Higher Velocity equals greater penetration. Plus, while the single pellet of 00 buck makes a larger initial hole, it does not tumble (where the 5.56 exposes its length making a much bigger hole deeper inside). On top of tumbling, it fragments (assuming you are not shooting at a resident of Somolia) doing even more damage. Buck shot does not fragment, at best it deforms.

Do not get me wrong, here. I am not saying the shotgun is bad for HD and the AR is king. What I am saying is that I object to the notion that it takes 9 rounds of 5.56 to equal 1 round of 00 buck. Even if you are bad shot and have to put two in every bad guy, you can still shoot 5 bad guys more between reloads. Besides, since any thing worth shooting is worth shooting twice, since life is expensive and bullets are cheap, double tapping should be done with the shotgun too, which gives a 10 bad guy advantage to the AR.

Back to the Sidewinder and why you do not see to many police with them. AR is easier for officers of all sizes and skill levels to shoot, and one projectile is eight less to go stray and hit some little kid. It is going to be lighter and better balanced assuming you are not a mall ninja. In short, administrators can see clear advantages towards the AR rather than a magazine fed shot gun for the same price.

 

[walking arsenal]

i never said that 9 rounds of 5.56 is equal to one round of 00 buck what i meant was that, assuming your shooting at a moving target one could easily expend 9 rounds or more of 5.56 at one person, some rounds obviously would miss. 00 buck is more economical under 100 yards. ill give 5.56 the gold past that of course.

A person could hit a moving target more easily with a round of 12 ga 00 buck.

more bang for your buck as it were.

I'm not sure I buy the whole fragmenting FMJ 5.56 bit.

the tumbling...............maybe, but not the fragging. I'd have to see proof.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

walking arsenal, LoadedDrum,

Would it be fair to say that a 5.56 round will do more damage than a single 00 buck pellet and the increased capacity of an AR gives you a potential to take down more bad guys, but the shotgun gives you a better chance, shot for shot, of hitting your target?

 

[CaCrusin]

Sidewinders in use

Sidewinders are currently deployed on US Navy ships in harm's way and are in many test & evaluation programs throughout the military and LE systems. The biggest complaints about the sidewinder is the width of the drum and the long reach to the forend. The SpecOps stock shortens the reach and we are introducing a ten-round double-stack box magazine later this year. The Sidewinder is perfect for home defense (keep an empty gun and loaded magazine), for less-lethal and crowd control duty, and for competitive shooting sports. One competitor took over 30 seconds off from regular times using the Sidewinder.

New ideas are often met with scepticisim and there is no reason why that would not be true of our products. Try them and you will believe.

CaCrusin

 

[walking arsenal]

Phantom



Mumble mumble, i suppose, mumble mumble

 

[carebear]

Walking,

Looking at the pictures again it appears to sit forward of the lifter, I presume the pump action pushes the top round off the mag/drum backwards onto the lifter (replacing the mag tube spring from a normal tube) which then operates normally as the pump goes forward. Think of the tube magazine turning into a vertical stack one round into the tube.

As far as hitting goes, I didn't see a particular change in my ability to hit moving targets between the rifle and a shotgun. But then all my formal training and practice is with the rifle.

I know I can hit more clays with a shotgun and buck than I can with a rifle, but I ain't missing the clays by much (inches) with the rifle and most targets are bigger than a pigeon.