LAPD BANS GLOCK 21 MECHANICAL FLAW - AY DETAILS ANYONE?

[jc2]

Actually, 2.5 million (which is obviously a PR figure) world-wide is not all that significant. When you factor in the fact that the G21 is a very small percentage of that number (the 9x19 models making up by far the largest portion of Glock's world-wide sales) and then consider the relatively small numbers of G21s in LAPD (remember, the G21 is not the issue sidearm--but one of several officer purchase options), the problems LAPD is experiencing with the G21 become more significant and cannot be swept away under the generalization that Glock sells lots of weapons. The G21 has been kind of a "problem child" for Glock since its introduction.

BTW, "in use in 65% of law enforcement agencies" is a long, long ways from "65-75% of the Law Enforcement sales market." Basically, if one officer in an agency ever purchased a Glock on department letterhead to avoid the FET then Glock counts that agency in their 65% figure (regardless of whether that weapon is even in actually used in a duty sitting or whether any Glocks are actually currently in use in that agency). Again, you have learn to read between the lines and take PR figures with a very large grain of salt.

 

[riverdog]

Interesting. I own two problem free G21's (Gen 2.5 and Gen 3). Maybe I'll convert the Gen 3 to a G20 (don't have a 10mm in anything) and it would give me two uppers for other gun. hmmm

 

[Jeff White]

My old department traded SW 5906s for Glock 21s in 2000. We had light primer hit problems from day one. The dept's Glock trained and certified armorer, cleaned out some kind of packing grease from around the firing pin. The problems stopped. Some months later, they started again. He cleaned them out again and then tried different ammunition, Glock's recommendation. They still aren't 100% reliable. I think of all the Glocks, the 21 is the least reliable out there. That dept still issues the Glock 21. But I'm not convinced they are 100% reliable, and that's not reliable enough for duty use.

Jeff

 

[JohnKSa]

Not hardly!

Actually, 2.5 million ... not all that significant. ... factor in ... small percentage of that number ... consider the relatively small numbers ... the problems ... more significant ... under the generalization....

"in use in 65% of law enforcement agencies" is a long, long ways from "65-75% of the Law Enforcement sales market."

Basically, if one officer ... ever purchased a Glock ... then Glock counts that agency in their 65% figure ... read between the lines ... large grain of salt.

First of all, there's a BIG difference between "Not hardly!" and the semantics tap dancing you're doing in an attempt to discredit Glock's numbers.

Second, you're just... plain... wrong.

http://www.berettaforum.net/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=007925;p=3

Part of the reason that Beretta has lost some of it's commercial market share (Part, not all) is due to the fact that Glock has garnered 60%+ of the LE market over the last 10 or so years - What State police dept's do, what big citys do, people see as a stamp of approval (due to the testing and scrutiny that LE/DOD/Gov't agencies put the guns thru), and thus has driven a large part of glock, SIG and H&k's commercial sales (not the only reasons).

Scott B.

Vice President
Law Enforcement-Defense Group and
New Business Development
Beretta USA

I realize your opinions are strong on this topic, but strong opinions are not the same as fact. To avoid being misleading, it would be more upstanding to differentiate between the times you are stating fact and the times you are stating opinion.

 

[Jeff White]

The reason Glock has captured so much of the law enforcement market has less to do with smaller agencies accepting the testing that larger agencies do and more to do with the aggressive marketing Glock does. They sold my old department the Glock 21s for the cost of replacing the nightsights on the 8 year old SW 5906s and took them in trade. Officers were permitted to buy their old 5906 for $300.00 from the distributer that handled the deal. Cost to the department was just under $100.00 per weapon.

Glock set out to capture the US law enforcement market and it's marketing like that that put Glocks on the hips of so many police officers.

Jeff

 

[johnmcl]

Key Words

Hi all,

Before jumping on the Glock-bashing bandwagon, one needs to read closely the extract from the news article. I see words like "maybe" and "about two percent". The problem can only logically range from all G21s being bad to no G21s being bad, with the center of gravity closer to none. No one can argue that the number two is closer to zero than it is to 100, except perhaps those that can find no good in any Glock. (I hear they have their own math...)

The path forward given LAPD's investment is pure engineering. Just ID the fix and get it put in place quickly. Moving wholesale to another weapon just doesn't make sense.

My dad always advised never to argue with a zealot...

John

 

[Jammer Six]

*

 

[MTMilitiaman]

So much for Glock Perfection

O please! They may not be perfect but they are still a very solid an reliable handgun.

To borrow the words of a historically respected figure, let he who is without fault cast the first stone. In theory or loosely grounded in fact though more than likely highly exagerated:

1911s are finicky and unreliable
SIGs have frames that crack
Berettas have slides that break
XDs have a crappy finish
HKs are expensive but otherwise fine unless you need customer service and don't have a badge, like me, and then it is well dressed poo
Rugers are fine if you can get past having the owners manual printed on the slide
But God help you if you get a Taurus cause they're one step above Jennings and below a brick...

Did I miss anything? Cause seriously, I am not one to pass up a good heated internet discussion, but somethings just get old...ya know. Let's at least find some new material to argue over like 16-year school girls in a shoe store.

Glock has had more problems than every other major mfg. combined.Ruger and CZ have the least.CZ only had one repair gun smith till recently,Glock is upgrade after upgrade and they still can't get it right.

In total number? Perhaps. Proportionately...I doubt it. I think people underestimate just how many Glocks are out there. Somewhere like what percentage of police officers in this country have one on their hips? I've heard a lot of different numbers, but it is a lot. Imagine, if you can, the millions that are in civilian hands. And then people get their panties in a wad like it is some big surprise when a few bad apples turn out? That hardly seems fair. People forget about the hundreds of thousands of Glocks that have thousands of rounds through them with little or no issues because someone says they saw this or that and I just don't understand it. I guarantee you there is more Glocks around by a magnitude of several times than there is CZs or Ruger autos. If you people are ready to condem a design that achieved this much popularity in 20 years over a few highly publicized incidents circling over the internet, of all places, and when all the details aren't even out yet, then I say you are a fool and...well...damn...I hope I never have to rely on you guys for jury duty. Given Glock's dependence on the LEO market, my guess is they will make this right and do whatever they have to do to regain the trust of the LAPD and the rest of the LE community. In the meantime don't look for me to sell my Glock 20 in the near future cause even with all the buzzying around the internet, I've seen no reason not to be completely satisfied with mine.

 

[jc2]

Imagine, if you can, the millions that are in civilian hands.

The total Glock production is right at 2.5 million (all models) which is a lot handguns which includes all military and police sales. No matter how much you truly believe and how many times you click your heels and wish, there are not "million that are in civilian hands."

When you couple that fact with the fact that more 9x19 models have been produced than any other model (with the .40 S&W coming in second), you are left with the fact that relatively few Glock .45 ACP (or 10mm, or 357 SIG or .380 models) have been produced, that leaves "the number in use explains the problem" theory in the dust.

 

[Matthew748]

Thanks for chiming in Jeff. Until reading your comments I was leery of accepting the reports at face value. Wouldn’t swapping out a spring or two fix the problem of light primer strikes? It seems worth a try if the alternatives are working with an unreliable gun or switching to a different gun that officers are not as accustomed to.

 

[rero360]

"Glocks boast a larger magazine capacity, less recoil and a more ergonomic design, making it easier for users to handle compared to the standard-issue Beretta 9 mm"

huh, I haven't shot the glock 21, I've shot a glock that was in .40 cal, and I've carried a beretta 92/96 for two years and to be honest I thought that holding the glock was like holding a 2X4, the beretta fit the hand a bit better. well theres my rant. oh yeah, the part about the glock being futuristic looking? is that guy high? theres more sci fi lazer tag looking guns than the glock out there.

 

[..]

This just in!..........Ignorance and Glock hating on THR!

 

[auschip]

For those that don't trust their 21's, I will take them off your hands cheap. PM me and we can setup the details.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

that leaves "the number in use explains the problem" theory in the dust.

Not really. Just because there isn't as many Glocks as Kalashnikovs (yet) doesn't mean that there isn't substantially more Glocks out there than most other competing designs and doesn't eleminate the fact that Glocks are very popular, whatever the exact number. Glocks are popular and that is why it is such a big deal to some when something goes wrong with them. This place is like the nerdy home economics girls gossiping about the one pimple that shows up on the lead cheerleader in time for senior pictures. Hardly seems fair when they've had their share of pimples themselves and are only judging because they could never achieve that kind of popularity to begin with.

 

[Jeff White]

MTmilitiaman said;

Glocks are popular and that is why it is such a big deal to some when something goes wrong with them.

It's a big deal when something goes wrong with any weapon issued for defensive purposes. Glocks are popular weapons. Glock's customer service when something goes wrong is not one of their strong points. Just ask NYPD about Glock's handling of the problems with the Glock 19s they bought.

Glocks are very reliable, but the Glock 21 has had problems in police service. I would say that the Glock 17 is probably the most reliable of all the models they produce.

My experience with the Glock 21 in police service is a very small sample of 24 pistols. We did have the light primer strike problems. I don't think we made it through a qualification shoot without at least one weapon experiencing a light primer strike. Ammunition was changed. The armorer would take the malfunctioning weapon in and clean up the springs. It didn't happen a lot, but it did happen. That PD didn't think it was a big enough problem to remve the weapons from service. Obviously LAPD has seen this occur over a much larger sample and has removed them from service until the problem is fixed. I don't see why there is such a controversy. The FAA routinely grounds aircraft until a problem is fixed. The automakers routinely recall their products to install modifications. The problems that lead up to those actions usually only occur in a very small number of the units. That's all that's going on here. Glock fans should be happy that this is occuring, because the problem will be identified and a fix developed.

Jeff

 

[MTMilitiaman]

That's exactly the point. The FAA can ground a plane for servicing and maintence without everyone jumping on the Bash Boeing Bandwagon. Then the FAA can release the plane back into service and people will trust those millions of components to work as it takes them to 32000 feet at 620 miles per hour sooner than they will trust the 30-some odd components of the pistol to work. I am saying that these pistols would have never achieved this sort of popularity if they were as big of peices of crap as some people tend to believe they are. The Glock didn't have a military contract in the US to bolster its sales and has had to fight the traditionalists and the Browning flag waving Gaston Gashers the whole time. You had people trying to get them banned from day one cause some dip**** movie producers says the Glock 7 can go through metal detectors on a Die Hard, you have ten-years under the AWB largely negating one of the biggest advantages the design has to offer, capacity, for over half of its entire existence. And then you have internet rumors that are largely or completely unfounded and exaggerated spreading like wildfire. The biggest thing Glock can claim to aid their acceptance was "U.S Marshalls." And even then, Beretta had "Lethal Weapon" and a shiny new military contract. Glock is still doing very well in the US market. This isn't because they explode or misfire on a regular basis. I am saying let Glock take care of it or at least wait until all the facts are sorted out to judge an entire design. What more do you want from these people? Despite the lack of tradition and Browning's signature, despite being one of the very first pioneers of polymer framed pistols, and the first to achieve popularity, despite rumors and gossip since its inception, the Glock has still staked out its share of the market, and it isn't an insignificant share. Let Glock do its job. It may just be a bad batch, it may be the design of a certain model or models, or the entire design--Glock will fix it. In the meantime, let's not forget that every major pistol design to achieve popularity eventually has to undergo some design changes. Most 1911s don't function exactly like the Doughboy 1911 of 90 years ago and it is unrealistic to assume that Glock won't eventually have to evolve as well. People didn't condemn the 1911 as a POS because the military saw room for improvement when the 1911A1 came out and I don't think it is fair to turn around and maroon Glock when they do pretty much the same thing.

 

[another okie]

This problem is apparently related to the Winchester White Box practice ammo they use. I have had the same problem with Winchester primers, which are difficult to ignite. I have not had the same problem with any other primers or any other brands of factory ammo. I have heard, though I don't know, that the Winchester primers provided to reloaders are different than the primer used in factory ammo. I like to use Winchester primers to reload .45 because they are unlikely to go off while being seated. I have about 2,000 of them on hand, so I'm not going to give up on them, but I will restrict the Winchester primed-rounds to my 1911.

Glock uses the same striker and striker spring in .45 that they do in 9 and 40; perhaps the .45 primers just need a little more oomph, and the Winchesters tip the balance. If you compare a brass hit by a Glock striker with brass hit by a 1911, you will see that the 1911 makes a large circular depression that fills almost the entire primer base. The Glock strike is much smaller.

I do not believe this is a maintenance issue, though it's possible the guns had some lube in the firing pin channel from the factory. It's amazing if that's true. To think that a law enforcement agency would issue a handgun without disassembling, inspecting and cleaning the gun is horrifying. It is not hard at all to take the slide apart and inspect and clean the striker channel. In use the Glock rarely gets very dirty in the channel from powder, though it is possible if overusing solvent or lube to get some down there, which will clog up the channel.

Glock is apparently saying this is due to the trigger bar somehow affecting the safety spring. I guess that's possible. The Portland problem was bad ammo. Glock makes a lemon now and then, just like any manufacturer.

 

[Jeff White]

It's not the ammo. We had the problem with locally manufactured practice ammo, Black Hills practice ammo and Remington Golden Saber duty ammo. It's not consistant either. A pistol may do it with one round and then fire a hundred or more before it reoccurs.

They'll find the problem, fix it and everything will be right with world again.

Jeff

 

[jc2]

It's not consistant either. A pistol may do it with one round and then fire a hundred or more before it reoccurs.

That's probably worst case scenario for a LE/defence weapon. You never know when you will need it, and you never know when it will fail (but you know it will fail).

 

[fastbolt]

Some folks ought to relax and wait for this LAPD situation to be resolved. Making excuses and speculating isn't really going to accomplish much of anything, except perhaps add some unnecessary confusion and create worry. Let Glock resolve this situation.

I've heard of at least a couple of other L/E agencies who have experienced similar sounding issues in recent years. One of them issues approx 90+ G21's and the other one something like over 2,500+ G21's. I know one of them doesn't use W-W ammunition.

Ironically, the G21 trigger bar has recently been revised to increase the length of the cruciform, specifically to address some reported light strike complaints. The longer cruciform was intended to further compress the firing pin spring, and give more force to the firing pin strike. At that time I was told that this wasn't a wide spread complaint, and that any existing G21's which weren't exhibiting any problems didn't need to have their trigger bars replaced.

I believe this was before Glock sent folks to LAPD, however, and it may be that the recently revised trigger bar may have been revised again to try and address the LAPD concerns ... this time to change the engagement of the firing pin safety plunger ... but I haven't had this confirmed, yet.

We'll have to wait and see what Glock determines.

I'm confident Glock will identify and address whatever issue, or issues, may be involved.

It's not like other firearms manufacturers who produce service weapons for L/E haven't had to address issues with their products, you know.

 

[PO2Hammer]

[For those that don't trust their 21's, I will take them off your hands cheap. PM me and we can setup the details./QUOTE]
That's my attitude as well.
I just bought a sweet 2nd gen Glock 21 for $399. What a nice shooter!
IMO, the perfect G-21. No finger grooves or the awful rail on front or that shiny teflon over tennifer finish.
But it does have the more modern angled ejection port/extractor.
I think I might pick up another and convert it to a longslide 10mm/.45acp.
Long live the 21!

 

[BrokenArrow]

According to an LA Times article there were about 1600 G21s in use and over 40 complaints of light strikes. Replacing the trigger bars did not fix the problem. The nickel/Teflon plating wearing off firing pins/safety plungers and gunking up the firing pin channel may be a contributing factor.

LAPD started issuing Glock 40s instead of Berettas 92s to new officers in November FWIW.

The 6 Glock 40s tested by the FBI fired 20,000 rounds each, 120,000 rounds total, with zero malfunctions. FBI/DEA have been issuing Glock 40s since 97/98. The USMS recently standardized on Glock 40s. Can't be that bad?

There are about 750,000 cops in the USA. There are about 80,000 armed feds. The latest DHS contract for up to 65,000 pistols from HK/SIG is less than 10% of that market. Don't forget the current Glock contracts w the FBI, DEA, USMS, Customs, and DHS that add up to that or more.

I like shooting my High Powers and 1911s more, but I carry my Glocks more. I am the master of cognitive dissonance.

This prob will roll off Glocks back like all the other probs and Gaston will keep laughing all the way to the bank. Again. With still bigger bags of money.

There are no perfect guns. CZs? The compact CZs had 7 malfunctions in 15,000 rounds when tested by the Czech cops, nowhere near as good as the FBI Glock 40s, or FBI SWAT 1911s (3 malfs in 40,000 rounds). Then 8,000 of the the first 20,000 CZs delivered of the 40,000 contracted for were rejected... stuff happens to everybody sooner or later.

 

[james481]

Glock uses the same striker and striker spring in .45 that they do in 9 and 40; perhaps the .45 primers just need a little more oomph, and the Winchesters tip the balance. If you compare a brass hit by a Glock striker with brass hit by a 1911, you will see that the 1911 makes a large circular depression that fills almost the entire primer base. The Glock strike is much smaller.

Well, I will refrain from speaking about the LAPD G21 problems, suffice it to say that I have a G30 (the G21's smaller brother) which has been 100% reliable since the day I got it, about 8000 rounds ago. I will certainly not be worried about it for at least the next 8000. Anyways, this comment above is incorrect. The Glock .45/10mm models use a different striker than the 9/.40/.357 models.

 

[another okie]

James481 is correct; I was typing faster than I was thinking. Glock uses a slightly different striker for the large frames.

They do, however, use the same spring for both strikers. I disassembled my 17 and 21 to compare the two strikers, and there is slight difference in the assembly as well as the striker.

The main point I was trying to make is that the striker spring might be a little light for some primers, and there is in fact an increased power striker spring available.

My second point is that the Glock makes a much smaller primer strike than the 1911. No one who has looked at the brass will disagree.

Here is the entry from gunsprings.com for Glock striker springs. No mention of any different springs for different models.

STRIKER SPRINGS - Factory Standard 5.5 Lbs - All Glock Models
Quality factory strength replacement striker springs.
Stock No. 32251 - each.....$3.49
Stock No. 32252 - pak of 3.......$ 7.49
Stock No. 32253 - pak of 10.....$ 15.99

I have never heard of a Glock 30 or any of the 10mm Glocks having this problem, which seems strange. I borrowed a Glock 30 after thinking about this. I fired about 50 rounds that I had loaded with Winchester primers and had no problems.

 

[duncan]

Correction to my earlier post. The problem is, apparently, that the firing pin spring is not being compressed far enough. Sorry for the incorrect information. Apparently Glock already has a fix.

This is totally unrelated to the Portland OR PD situation.

Sounds to me like officers are NOT racking their slides fully.

Perhaps some slingshooting? Or springs in need of replacement?