Laser Grips

[CTGunner]

I'm not sure if this is the best place to post this or not - My question is, do Laser Grips really improve a shooters ability to hit a moving target under stress. I watched a few of the videos on the Crimson Trace website and they seem pretty effective based on what they show.

I have been shooting for a number of years with conventional sites and do a pretty good job with them so if for some reason the laser didn't function I could still run the gun. My question is really how much of an advantage does a laser provide above and beyond conventional sites assuming the shooter already has the fundamentals down and is the cost worth it based on your experience.

Thanks for the input.

 

[JohnBiltz]

They do and they don't. I think the lasers are effective in that they are quick because you don't need to bring the gun up to eye level. So in something like a mugging they are useful. They also allow you to shoot if you are in a strange position like you have just been knocked down. They may also let you know you have managed to get your own body parts in your own line of fire which happens sometimes when grappling. I don't believe they are useful where you are searching for a target. To illustrate what I mean, say you are shooting at a bottle on a fence rail with a huge open area behind it. Finding the bottle with the laser is going to be tough to do because you can not see the dot to bring it to the target. But some pretty minimal point shooting skills combined with a laser works pretty well.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Lasers are no substitute for fundamental shooting skills with iron sights. Where lasers offer an advantage is when the gun cannot be brought to eye level so the sights can be used.

They might possibly offer an advantage in some situations to prevent the gun from having to be fired at all - a dancing red dot can be pretty persuasive under some circumstances, if the situation permits.

 

[Averageman]

A very good friend mounted a rather expensive laser on his carry pistol. I lost all desire for one when I saw the dot disappear in daylight conditions on the range.
As a training tool, yes; but to trust my life to...No.

 

[dirtengineer]

I have a CT laser grip on a Ruger LCP. Laser grips are an awesome training tool. You can see your mistakes as you pull the trigger - the laser will dance on the target.

It also has a psychological advantage for the shooter and shock value for the bad guy. Might mean that you don't have to pull the trigger.

Laser grips are on my wish list for my other carry guns.

 

[Strykervet]

JohnBlitz and LeeLapin provided you with some good insight, and Averageman brought up a point to consider. I'd like to add a few things.

My wife just got the piece she wants to carry, a Smith 649. But she wanted either thicker padded grips or longer grips or preferably, both. So new grips were in order. The laser was something I showed her so she knew all her options, and considering the price of a set of nice, new grips, and the fact the laser grips come in four styles for J-frames, she went ahead with the CT grips after some thought.

Now she practices from time to time, she isn't as into it as me, but she knows how to use it. The laser obviously isn't a replacement for practice and training and working on fundamentals. But considering she knows how to aim using irons and does okay with them, and the fact she knows how to point shoot, the laser became an asset and not a hinderance. If it works, it gives her an added level of assurance her point shot under stress will on the mark, and if it doesn't, she'll still be able to do what she needs to do --she isn't dependent on it.

That said, you still need to keep hot batteries in it, she's been carrying a 2 cell surefire light in her purse too for a while now, years, and she always carries a pair of extras. If you carry a weapon with electronics on it that uses batteries, you NEED to carry extra batteries. This is even more important with reflex sights and such, where you may in fact depend on it.

Now the laser does act as a deterrent. Most robbers and crooks aren't super skilled criminals, and they don't spend a lot of time at the range. They get a lot of their firearm info from movies and games, and movies and games taught them that "dancing red dots" mean certain death. When those hit the target, the bad guy either surrenders or gets killed, there is no other popular scenario. Cheap I know, but hey, it works and the explanation fits...

The red dots can and will wash out on bright targets and black targets in very bright light, like a summer day. No doubt about it. They work best between dusk and dawn, indoors, cloudy days, etc. Which is when a lot of crime occurs, but who knows? It could happen anytime. Which is why it is important not to depend on these grips --you got 'em so use 'em, but use them in conjunction with point shooting and aimed shooting; never draw and fire the laser in absence of some kind of a traditional firing position unless an emergency. Basically, these grips work great with point shooting, if you practice point shooting these will really add to that, and if the laser fails or it is washed out or whatever, all is not lost. Just point shoot without the laser. My wife, she practices with and without the laser, SA and DA, and aimed and point shooting.

My wife, she loves hers, and she gets a little tighter groups using the CT grips at 7y as she does using aimed fire at 7y, but again, she isn't as practiced as I am, and the snub revolvers require a lot of practice to handle well and shoot accurate anyway. I have a 340PD, and I'd like the thicker padding of their smaller grips, and using her 649 I can see how the CT grips may benefit me too for this little pocket cannon. I think they really shine on the Smith J-frames the best for so many reasons. I wouldn't put 'em on my Glock though, or my 686+ for that matter, just the snub revolvers at the moment. Lasers work better on some weapons and not well on others, in my opinion, and with the case of these snubs, they work best, almost like they were made just for them.

I started out kind of against them mind you, but getting this 649 and then these grips for my wife, it kind of opened me up to them. As long as they don't get in the way and you don't depend on them at all, they are a very good thing to have on a small pocket, IWB, or purse carry revolver intended for close range defense.

So knowing what you know now, if they sound right for you, get 'em. Make sure to read up on them though, different ways of zeroing them, deploying them, etc. As for me, I think the CT grips go with J-frames like peanut butter and jelly.

 

[conw]

I think the only use for a laser on a carry gun is to make awkward shots form a contorted or injured shooting platform. E.g. you can barely lift your arm and you are lying on the floor bleeding, and need to make a shot. They may be useful in some chaotic situations where it would be difficult to see your sights, e.g. smoky rooms (certain types of ammo, which the BG might use, can create lots of smoke).

I have tried them on carry guns and didnt like them. The first one I had (Armalaser for a Kel-tec way back) simply ran through batteries like crazy and I didn't trust it from a reliability standpoint.

A Crimson Trace laser-grip for the glock (with rear actuation switch) was well built but I didn't like the way it added major bulk to the backstrap, and found it totally unnecessary in a carry gun. I train the same way with, or without a laser...and the questionable reliability of any such electronic device with multiple points of failure, versus good night sights, meant that the downsides outweighed the positives.

I now have a light/laser on my bedside gun but would still rather use the sights than a laser. I can see myself using the laser to make an extremely contorted/compromised shot though.

You can see your mistakes as you pull the trigger - the laser will dance on the target.

A lot of people who user lasers have never emphasized focusing on the front sight which is half the problem. Then the laser (in a shooter without good fundamentals) creates a tendency to snatch the trigger. Laser movement or dancing from a standing shooting stance would be normal and does not mean you are making mistakes. Lots of people don't realize that even a great shooter will have a 4-5" margin for the laser to dance, at 7-10 yds, after taking up slack. The question (from a coaching standpoint is): is there more movement before, during, or after the pull (or to use my preferred term, press)? As long as movement is relatively consistent throughout, it's normal and good.

I would say ball and dummy drills are much better for beginners to diagnose problems.

I recently purchased a SIRT gun which indicates shots with a laser (and has a separate laser to indicate trigger take-up), but I am not sold on the idea. It seems useful for force-on-force training though. But again the problem is some people develop the tendency to watch the laser when they ought to watch the front sight.

 

[dev_null]

I agree with the posts above. I have a set of CT grips on my carry gun (Kimber fullsize 1911) that I'm getting ready to take off and replace with the original factory grips.

 

[conw]

dev, are you going to sell it or try it out for HD? one point I forgot to add was that the benefit of a light/laser unit like my Streamlight IFE2 w/ strobe (and tape switch for one-hand operation - big plus there) is that you can choose when to use the laser. The CTs are pretty much on if you have it in your hand. For "stalking" type scenarios where a light/laser is useful, it sucks to AD your laser. So (IMO) CTs are a no-no for HD. This was proven in a class I took, too, in FOF.

For the $170ish that CTs cost I would either recommend the IFE2 for a mere $30 more (if you look hard on Ebay), or for that matter just a good WML for home defense like the IFE1 which is comparably priced or cheaper. A WML used with proper front sight fundamentals beats a laser used by someone who over-relies on it, any day.

For a carry gun I can't recommend the 2-lamp Warren Tactical Sights strongly enough. They are expensive at $120 but they are so amazingly fast and have a very skinny front sight considering it has a tritium lamp. I am comparing this to my experiences with Glock factory sights (horrible), and XS Big Dots (even worse). They're also very popular with the top competitive shooters.

Edit: Jargon alert! For anyone not hip to my jive...

IFE2 - a model of weapon mounted light offered by streamlight
CTs - crimson trace lasergrips
AD - accidental discharge
IMO - in my opinion
FOF - force on force
WML - weapon mounted light
XS - Express Sights (a rear shallow V notch with a "dot" type sight in front; a big dot in the case of Big Dots) brand of sights

 

[btg3]

Muscle memory play a role in many sports and handgun shooting is no exception. Muscle memory comes with training. Laser grips will accelerate the development of muscle memory and reinforce it as you continue training with laser grips. The caveat is that if good fundamentals are not practiced, laser grips have potential to teach bad habits.

Laser grips are an excellent tool for a coach to use with new shooters. For a new shooter to think laser grips are a substitute for iron sights is a mistake.

 

[dev_null]

I'm probably just going back to regular grips, adding the Streamlight (handheld) if it's at home and in the dark. (Actually, I'd be more likely to grab the 870, which has a light attached.) I don't like a lot of stuff hanging off a pistol, so no tac-lights. The pistol + Streamlight is what I trained with in my Defensive Pistol class anyway.

You're right about the grip position, too. These are an older model, with the skinny activation button towards the front of the RH grip (about 1:00, I guess?), and seem to require a deathgrip to get them to stay on, at least with my hands.

I haven't decided whether to hang on to the CT's or sell them.

 

[dirtengineer]

I think the only use for a laser on a carry gun is to make awkward shots form a contorted or injured shooting platform. E.g. you can barely lift your arm and you are lying on the floor bleeding, and need to make a shot. They may be useful in some chaotic situations where it would be difficult to see your sights, e.g. smoky rooms (certain types of ammo, which the BG might use, can create lots of smoke).

I have tried them on carry guns and didnt like them. The first one I had (Armalaser for a Kel-tec way back) simply ran through batteries like crazy and I didn't trust it from a reliability standpoint.

A Crimson Trace laser-grip for the glock (with rear actuation switch) was well built but I didn't like the way it added major bulk to the backstrap, and found it totally unnecessary in a carry gun. I train the same way with, or without a laser...and the questionable reliability of any such electronic device with multiple points of failure, versus good night sights, meant that the downsides outweighed the positives.

I now have a light/laser on my bedside gun but would still rather use the sights than a laser. I can see myself using the laser to make an extremely contorted/compromised shot though.



A lot of people who user lasers have never emphasized focusing on the front sight which is half the problem. Then the laser (in a shooter without good fundamentals) creates a tendency to snatch the trigger. Laser movement or dancing from a standing shooting stance would be normal and does not mean you are making mistakes. Lots of people don't realize that even a great shooter will have a 4-5" margin for the laser to dance, at 7-10 yds, after taking up slack. The question (from a coaching standpoint is): is there more movement before, during, or after the pull (or to use my preferred term, press)? As long as movement is relatively consistent throughout, it's normal and good.

I would say ball and dummy drills are much better for beginners to diagnose problems.

I recently purchased a SIRT gun which indicates shots with a laser (and has a separate laser to indicate trigger take-up), but I am not sold on the idea. It seems useful for force-on-force training though. But again the problem is some people develop the tendency to watch the laser when they ought to watch the front sight.

Perhaps my terminology was imprecise, but I have to respectfully disagree. I was not referring to the physical inability to hold something perfectly still, but the reality that the laser points where the bullet will hit.

One of the big advantages is that you do not have to focus on the front sight, you can focus on the target. So you can dry fire and use an analysis tool like the one at this web site. http://www.bullseyepistol.com/training.htm Or you can self diagnose at the range.

I do agree that ball and dummy drills are great. You can do them by yourself as well. Off topic, but one thing I like to do is a little variation with a revolver. Empty cylinders and two different power cartridges. Say, .44 special and .44 magnum. There is something that will force good fundamentals or show you your mistakes.

Is a laser a substitute to fundamentals? No. Do you still need to practice sight alignment? YES - batteries die and lasers break! But what a great tool for training and for self defense. Just like night sights are a tool, and a flashlight is a tool.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I'm not sure if this is the best place to post this or not - My question is, do Laser Grips really improve a shooters ability to hit a moving target under stress.

If you believe in a classic, romantic self-defense shooting that permits you the time and opportunity to use your laser sight then I suppose the laser sight will help.

I don't believe in classic, romantic self-defense shootings.

 

[Some Guy]

This does not address the moving target request per the OP but I have installed CT grips on my wife's EDC and nightstand gun as both of us have the vision of 50 yo's. (read decreased vision, need for reading glasses also known as presbyopia)

It is difficult to see the front sight without glasses. The laser is useful if we don't have time to grab glasses in the middle of the night but need to grab the gun instead.

The majority of range time is spent using iron sights. The gun also has Night sites for when in low light situations and we are already wearing vision correction.

Jeff

 

[JohnBiltz]

I normally shoot 100 rounds a week. I shoot 50 with irons and 50 with the laser.

My eyes are old and I was wearing glasses in my teens, I now wear bifocals. Front sight focus is a lot harder now than it used to be.

The other thing is a lot of people never go to their sights. In that case its not a matter of iron sights versus a laser its point shooting versus a laser. Really its point shooting versus point shooting supplemented by a laser. You need some point shooting ability to use the laser. If that dot comes on and its way off target you are either going to never see the dot because your vision is focusing in or it is going to take too long to get it back on target. My experience has been if you practice your draw with a laser you will pretty quickly develop hand and eye coordination so that the dot comes on where your eyes are looking. If you get good enough at that then you don't really need the laser anymore.

 

[Chris Rhines]

Reported experiences with laser sights vary widely - so widely, in fact, that I can only recommend trying them out under different conditions, against a shot timer.

My own experiences -

- Lasers are slightly faster (~0.15-0.20 sec) to the first shot, either from the draw or from a ready position. I attribute this to being able to plant the dot on the target earlier in the draw, and not having to switch focus to the sights.
- Lasers are slightly slower when shooting multiple shots on a single target. I can track my front sight and prep the trigger for another shot more easily than I can track the dot on the target.
- Lasers are much faster when transitioning between targets, especially small/moving targets.
- With a quality laser, such as CT Lasergrips, it takes bright, direct sunlight to wash out the dot. If it's overcast, indoors, or even slightly dark, the dot works well. Green lasers are even better, but I've found that green lasers can have issues with battery life.
- I've noticed no particular difference in long-range accuracy (15+ yards) between the laser and irons. Long-range accuracy is about trigger control, more than the sights.
- I don't care for lasers built into weapon-mounted lights. The light offset becomes an issue when trying for a low-probability shot.
- Shooting from awkward positions, around barriers, etc., has already been mentioned. The laser does help with this kind of shooting, sometimes a lot.

I use CT Lasergrips on all my defensive guns.

-C

 

[Loosedhorse]

do Laser Grips really improve a shooters ability to hit a moving target under stress

In my opinion, only training helps this ability. I think that some firearms (like J-frames) are very difficult to aim well, and training with lasers on the gun can result in faster (accurate) hits than training without them. I have lasers on my J-frames.

For all guns, laser grips may aid your aim when you're using available cover. And Mr. Murphy tells us that we need to expect the laser to fail. But that's not what you asked.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Averageman said

"A very good friend mounted a rather expensive laser on his carry pistol. I lost all desire for one when I saw the dot disappear in daylight conditions on the range."

The vast majority of self defense shootings happen in low light or indoors.

 

[btg3]

^^^ A home-defense handgun can be a very good application for lasers.

 

[krupparms]

As I am getting older, I find laser grips to be a big help! Here in OR. We have alot of over cast days! I have CT grips on 2-J frame Rov.s & 2 automatics. I have found that they help get on target faster! I have them mounted on one AR15 (LASER &LIGHT combo ) not C.T. Some shooters will not like them! But as as any tool or aid, it all depends on user! I think it is up to the shooter. Like all things you should practice as much as possible. And I also agree you should keep extra batteries handy! C.T. has a battery offer, they will sell them cheap! Check it out! Give them a call 1-800-442-2406.They are on P.T.S. They are great help with advice also.

 

[ACP]

I have found my Crimson Trace helps my J-frame speed and accuracy immensely. Snubbies are tough enough to shoot; the red dot simplifies things.

To Shawn: "If you believe in a classic, romantic self-defense shooting that permits you the time and opportunity to use your laser sight then I suppose the laser sight will help."

I agree with you in general, and specifically if you have a laser that can be turned "on" and "off." But my CT is activiated when I grip the pistol, hence it is part of my firing process. The confirmation it affords me that I on target increases my first-shot speed and confidence greatly. And I am a "point and shoot" guy.

 

[ball3006]

I would like laser grips on some of my pistols but I cannot afford them. I shot a friend's pistol with a laser and it is a help. My eyes don't allow me to see the sights clearly and the laser helps in this respect.

 

[M2 Carbine]

My question is, do Laser Grips really improve a shooters ability to hit a moving target under stress.

Yes. They absolutely do, if........................

The shooter knows what they are doing and they practice. Few people do.

Trouble is most people that try a good laser, like Crimson Trace do not know the proper way to use the laser.

Having a home range, where I can shoot in low light and darkness, for years I've experimented with lasers and laser/lights during live fire.
The laser, like iron sights, requires knowledge, skill and practice to get good.

People spend a good while getting good with iron sights but expect to be just as good with the laser the minute they put it on the gun. Then because they can't use the laser well they blame it on the laser.

"A very good friend mounted a rather expensive laser on his carry pistol. I lost all desire for one when I saw the dot disappear in daylight conditions on the range."

This is classic lack of knowledge and demonstrates what I'm saying. Learn what the equipment is for and how to use it.
The laser is a LIGHT, of course you can't see it in bright daylight. The laser is for use in low light and darkness. Pretty much when you can't see the iron sights.

This girl had never touched a gun an hour and a half before this picture was taken and I guarantee you would not want her shooting at you using the laser. (She was also very good with the iron sights before it got dark)

 

[M2 Carbine]

Yesterday was good example of using the laser while moving.

Saturday, a lady I've been teaching to shoot for a couple weeks, took the Texas concealed carry qualification. 50 timed rounds at 3, 7 and 15 yards (iron sights). She shot a perfect score, 250/250, so the lady can shoot decent but has a lot to learn yet.
(there were 8 men and one other lady qualifying and she beat them all )


Yesterday I started her off shooting while moving. Also she started using her new Crimson Trace laser grip.

The results were interesting in that all her fast moving laser shots were nicely within COM, while she had a number of misses when not using the laser.

Also, right from the start her time was noticeably faster with the laser.

 

[Sgt_R]

I've used red dots & lasers on pistols & rifles. I greatly prefer red dots. For me, it's just easier to keep track of my front sight than it is to play 'find the dot' after every shot.

One place I will admit that the laser has an obvious advantage is in shooting from retention or in awkward positions where you are unable to use your sights. Still, I'm not a fan.

R