Tactics---Or gadgets?

[Matthew Temkin]

I recently watched the new DVD that Crimson Trace is offering for free.
Great vid, BTW, and very nice to see Wes Doss and Ken Hackathorn in action.
Two very serious hombres.
Naturally the DVD wants to sell you a laser unit and makes some good cases why one needs a laser on their pistol.
The main selling points that the DVD makes is that we are wired to focus on the threat, and that since so many encounters happen in low light, looking for a front sight in an actual close range gunfight is based more on faith than reality.
So far so good.
However, 99% of the shots that the video shows ( full extension, half extension, from the ground, from positions of disadvantage,etc) can be made by a trained point shooter without the need to search for a red dot--something which may or may not be visable when IT hits the fan.
Now this is not a knock on lasers, since I do see a place for them in both a SWAT/Military and a training venue.
But I question if the typical armed citizen, who is trained in point and aimed shooting techniques, really needs one.
___

 

[Bubba613]

What about the typical citizen who is not trained in point shooting?

 

[MisterPX]

Gadgets can make the employment of tactics much easier.

 

[Shovelhead]

Just think of it as a "Real World" cursor.

Just Point & Click.

 

[Mr_Rogers]

I have never seen a true professional using a laser sight so I can't say how useful it may be. I have seen many non-professionals using lasers and in "non-professionals" I include those who carry firearms for a living but for whom the firearm is a badge of office as much as a tool.

I have seen very few non-professional shooters use a laser effectively. All they manage to do is paint a pretty crimson pattern around a target and by the time they get anywhere close to the aiming point they would have been dead twice. With the non-professional the hope seems to be that the laser will in some way substitute for real practice. From what I have seen that hope is vain.

A sales video showing how well a laser works in the hands of an expert only encourages the lazy to rely on gadgets rather than practice.

But what do I know, I'm only an old non-battery powered grump who thinks you should be able to do math. the old way before you are allowed to buy a calculator.

 

[The Bushmaster]

I wonder what the first gun owners thought when some yahoo came out with gun sights to add to your favorite wheel lock?

 

[Bubba613]

I have seen very few non-professional shooters use a laser effectively. All they manage to do is paint a pretty crimson pattern around a target and by the time they get anywhere close to the aiming point they would have been dead twice. With the non-professional the hope seems to be that the laser will in some way substitute for real practice. From what I have seen that hope is vain.

Yes, people seem to think that lasers are a good substitute for trigger control and practice. They aren't.
What they are good for is trigger practice at home dryfiring. If you can pull the gun and pull the trigger while keeping the little dot right on the target, then you can do it even without the laser.
But it's more fun to practice.

 

[psyopspec]

Yes, people seem to think that lasers are a good substitute for trigger control and practice. They aren't.

I've yet to hear this straw man argument actually be voiced by someone who believes in it. Even if some believe "I don't have to practice because I have a laser on my gun," you're talking about an extremely small minority of the gun owning/carrying populace. Not worth getting riled up over in this particular discussion.

Personally, every firearm I've held that had Crimson Trace grips on it didn't amaze me. My finger, while indexed, blocks the beam. For carry or HD use, I'd say lasers are nice to have, but not a necessity. They can be great for shooters who have less-than-stellar vision though.

Just Point & Click.

If that happens, I suggest a TRB drill.

 

[Bubba613]

You need to hang around gun shops more. I hear it probably every week, if not explicitly at least implicitly.

 

[DiN_BLiX]

I would invest in training before I bought anykind of gadgets like a CT, because if your tactics suck, no amount of gadgets will save you.

 

[WardenWolf]

I'm not a fan of laser sights for several reasons. One is that a target can easily be too far or too brightly illuminated for you to adequately see the laser. Two is that the laser can blind a person, which is an extreme liability should you ever wind up with the gun pointed at someone you don't have to shoot (for example, you're sweeping the house and encounter your kid). Three, if you can see the laser, so can they.

Red dots, on the other hand, can be quite useful. You can learn to shoot with them instinctively. Once you do, you can make snap shots that would be otherwise impossible. And since only you can see the dot, you won't run the risk of blinding somebody or giving away your position.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Also, from experiance using laser pointers, I'd imagine they'd have trouble getting on target. If you can't point at the threat, the laser might be centered on some wall, and impossible to see.

 

[GRIZ22]

I'm not a fan of lasers for most of the reasons already mentioned. It doesn't take a lot to train to point shoot. Jim Cirillo used to teach it to thousands going through the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. One of his books would be a lot cheaper than any laser.

 

[LAK]

I don't use them.

They may appeal to people who are unwilling to, or simply have no time to, become competent shooters.

There seems to be a presumption though that a laser "dot" is going to be visible on any kind of target without any regard as to the size of the target area and surround or obstructing barriers, cover, other reflective surfaces etc. Anyone know what happens when your target is behind glass? Like a sliding glass door for example?

On most items of clothing the "dot" is certainly going to stand out in poor light and can be placed torso center mass, under ideal circumstances; the proverbial badguy standing squarely facing and unobstructed by barriers or cover.

However, in the course of a confrontation which turns into a moving gunfight, now the defender is perhaps required to differentiate smaller target zones on a badguy - or badguys - who are using cover and or concealment.

Someone whose practice has been confined to shooting groups in the middle of a standard silhouette with their laser may likely find themselves just spraying bullets.

----------------------------

http://gtr5.com
http://ssunitedstates.org

 

[BADUNAME37]

I guess I'm not too familiar with how well they work.

If there is a red dot, or laser, doesn't the person at the "receiving" end CLEARLY see where that light is originating?

I've held some guns which had lasers or red dots and wondered if the bad guy would see where the light is coming from. If so, couldn't he could just start shooting away at the light "source" before you ever have a chance to put the red dot "on HIM?"

 

[Mr_Rogers]

I agree with Mike the Wolf's comments on passive illuminated reticule sights. A well designed illuminated optical sight extends your useful shooting time at dawn and dusk, it makes the use of both eyes for shooting more comfortable, it speeds target acquisition and it helps compensate for vision deterioration. The downsides in most systems are bulk, batteries and durability.

I use the Bushnell MP ACOG lookalike on two range training carbines. I actually prefer the two color, variable intensity, "dot and T" reticule over any other. I do not know how well these sights will hold up but if they were tough enough then one of these sights with a grip on/off pressure switch option would be great.

 

[mercop]

Everyone is trained in point shooting since we all know how to point and index our body naturally during a conversation or altercation. We have gone to great means to spend lots of time and money learning to make nice little groups on paper targets, this has trained us out of our natural reaction at least during training anyway. Just as with all things martial you enjoy more continuity if you train into the body's natural response instead of going against it.

As far as lasers go it is interesting that you bring them up. My best friend is an Air Marshal and part time holster maker. Recently I was at his house and a buddy of ours had dropped off his S&W 642 for John to make a holster for it. It just so happened to have a laser on it. I check the gun for clear and then proceed to start checking it out. I take the gun and point in against the walk and squeezing with all my might I cannot see the laser dot, then I realize since my finger is point index I cannot see it. In order to use it my finger would have to be on the trigger. I put it back in it's new holster. It only reaffirms my opinion that the best accessory for any pistol is training and ammo.

 

[markfh]

I don't need a laser. My father taught me how to point shoot by practicing with a squirt gun. Cheap, easy, and effective.

Instead of a squirt gun now I use a 22 pistol.

 

[Macmac]

I wonder what the first gun owners thought when some yahoo came out with gun sights to add to your favorite wheel lock?

That's pretty funny, but it sure is true.. I have a Queen Anne style flintlock I made 99.9% of my self from all shop scrap, and it has no sites whar so ever.

Oddly perhaps i can consistanctly hit a 2 feet x 3 feet target at 25 yards, and not at the outter edges either.

I shoot it like I shoot my 1911 styled guns.. seems to work.

 

[zombienerd]

I believe that laser sights (when properly used/calibrated) can be a priceless addition to any pistol used for home defense.

Green lasers (532nm @ 30mw or higher) are extremely bright, and can be seen up to 2-3 miles minimum. I have one of these to mount on my carbine when it arrives. Yes, it does allow the BG to see where it's coming from if he's looking for it, but the "sending" end of a laser is a very small dim dot unless it's aimed at the head, in which case it's pretty dang bright. At night, red lasers are preferable to green, as when you use the green lasers, you can usually see the "stream". Still, I am pretty sure I can put the dot where I want and squeeze before anyone else could aim.

I just see in the rush of the moment, I'd rather be able to point the green dot on the center mass and squeeze, than to have to take time to aim; that could be fatal if the BG is already taking aim.

I don't see much use for them in hunting, or target practice (except to sight them in), but when every millisecond counts, I'd like to know it's there.

You can also train yourself just as well using the laser as you can to point-shoot or aim-shoot. I practice all three methods.

Last point, not all lasers are grip-mounted, and I don't think I would like that setup either. Mine is mountable under the barrel on the small rail of my SR-9, and I also have a mount to mount it to the scope rail on my upcoming MPA Carbine.

 

[Tyrannosaurus]

I don't need a laser. My father taught me how to point shoot by practicing with a squirt gun. Cheap, easy, and effective.

Instead of a squirt gun now I use a 22 pistol.

Definitely one of the coolest quotes I've seen on THR.

 

[GRIZ22]

My father taught me how to point shoot by practicing with a squirt gun. Cheap, easy, and effective.


If it works use it. You might want to upgrade to a soft air gun today.

 

[RyanM]

Personally, I think "legal" power lasers are almost worthless as weaponsights. Anything but optimum conditions, and the dot may as well be invisible. Decent lighting, the laser shining on a dark surface, and you're not looking straight at it... you're going to have to play "hunt for the dot."

I have a pretty nice 140 mw laser pointer. Really wish you could get weapon sights in that wattage. There is absolutely no way to miss the dot, no matter what the ambient lighting is, what color surface it's shining on, and no matter where it is in your field of vision. It's bright enough that you can see the dot on the surface of a lit 40 watt bulb.

 

[JoeSlomo]

I found it takes as much time to get a sight picture with iron sights as it does to find the bouncing laser on target, so I won't waste the cash.

They are outstanding for folks that have vision problems though.

 

[Ankeny]

My vision pretty much sucks, but I still haven't bothered with a laser. A good index and fuzzy sight picture still seems to work OK.

I have seen some really amazing shooting done by USPSA Grandmaster shooters using CT lasers in low light situations. Of course the scenario was set up with distances that made PSing not an option, light that made the sights too slow, and of course the conditions were optimal for the laser sight.