Most attackers don't broadcast the attack at range. They use the element of surprise to advantage. A mugger isn't going demand your wallet from 20 yards away, or even 10 yards. He needs to be close to be threatening. Now if it's someone suspicious following you at a distance, it's a judgment call when or if to draw on them. You need to be aware that brandishing a pistol in public is serious business. People will notice and panic, you end up being the bad guy and have to explain to police why you drew your gun. The real bad guy is long gone.
Laser on P3AT anyone?
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Most attackers don't broadcast the attack at range. They use the element of surprise to advantage. A mugger isn't going demand your wallet from 20 yards away, or even 10 yards. He needs to be close to be threatening. Now if it's someone suspicious following you at a distance, it's a judgment call when or if to draw on them. You need to be aware that brandishing a pistol in public is serious business. People will notice and panic, you end up being the bad guy and have to explain to police why you drew your gun. The real bad guy is long gone.
SwampWolf
Member
Having worked in le for 26 years before retiring, I've had the benefit (or curse
) of dealing with bgs on a day to day basis up close and personal. If I've learned anything it is that it's a huge mistake to stereotype criminals and make self-defense decisions predicated on over-generalizations. They are not all cowards; they are not all stupid and, for sure, they are not all rational. Don't expect a drug-crazed felon to act rationally when he sees that you are armed. Don't expect an enraged sociopath to run the other way just because he heard you rack a shell into your tacti-cool pump shotgun. And, for God's sake, as kanewpadle noted, don't count on any felon skeedaddaling because he's spotted a red dot dancing on his chest (let alone his leg). And, finally, don't rely on tv shows or movies to dictate what your self-defense strategies are: if a bg is armed and has made his intentions clear that he means to kill or do serious bodily harm to you or an innocent other, please dispense with the "warnings" you hear cops shout ("Stop or I'll shoot"; "freeze"; "reach for the sky" or any other such nonsensical hogwash). Why give him any edge? He certainly isn't going to warn you.People carrying a firearm for self-defense should be trained in how and when to use a weapon and any confidence they acquire should be as a result of an effective training regimen-not on some magic bouncing red ball.
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at no point did I say they were a substitute for training.. in fact they require just as much training as the firearm... but I see no down side to having the laser available... in low light it shows where you are aiming (pointing.) when your adrenaline is pumping it gives you something simpler to work with than trying to line up 3 dot sights with shaking hands... and as I said earlier.. in some instances (as was the case with friends of mine) it can save some from the terrible experience of having to discharge their weapon..
at no point did I say ALL criminals are dumb, or any other generalization... but I will stick to them being cowards MOST of the time.. they prey on someone the perceive as weaker then themselves and when that changes (they realize they are in the weaker position) they often rethink their actions... how many people have been saved by simply drawing their gun without ever having to shoot it? Hell, how many stories are posted here of just that...
now how many crazed sociopaths and drug crazed felons run through the gunfire to attack you anyway... I am not saying this doesnt happen but it is in the minority and even in such an instance I dont see how the addition of a laser (with appropriate training) would be negative in any way...
It sures the shot in high stress, allows youto focus on one spot rather than trying to bounce between your gun and the BG.... and can be a deterrent whether or not anyone believes it... I have seen it...
If I had to guess I would say you dont carry on a regular basis though I could be wrong and mean no insult by it... If I feel as though myself or someone I care about is in danger I am going to take the necessary action to defend myself and will worry about the consequences later... situational awareness goes a long way...
perhaps you have balls of steel, but I know few people who would not be disuaded by the sight of a laser coming toward them, tracing up their leg to their chest... I only stopped at leg because in the situation I was recalling for you, it couldnt get any farther as the BG quickly dropped the pipe he was planning on bashing my friends head in with and high tailed the other way...
I agree you need to do what you feel the situation requires. If you can spot them a ways off so much the better. But in a crowd things get more complicated.
SwampWolf
Member
Don't count on that happening-no matter how many stories you see posted in cyberspace...
It happens-and maybe a lot more times than you think it does.
People who arm themselves but don't believe the worst case scenario can happen to them are people who might want to rethink why they are carrying a gun. I'm not against laser sights but imo they have their least benefit when installed on a small .380. As I opined in an earlier post, putting anything extra on a pistol like an LCP only compromises the very role such a weapon is meant to play when being carried for defensive purposes: being small, light and compact and therefore apt to be along for the ride when a more effective (i.e., bigger) handgun is ,for whatever reason ,inappropriate.
I final thought: the notion that someone who is ready to kill you or do you great bodily harm is going to take the time to scan his chest for the sight of a little red dot is pure bunk. His eyes will be on you just as your eyes will be fixed on him. If he is armed (which is probably the case in most instances when drawing a weapon in self-defense is warranted), do you really think you will be searching your chest area (or even your leg
) for a dancing red light?Bobo
Member
I'm just an internet shmuck so don't take my word for the effectiveness of lasers on a close-encounter gun, check out these PROS' opinions...
http://proarms.podbean.com/2009/01/04/018-crimson-trace-laser-grips-and-laser-sights-review/
Also don't miss the "Listen Now" at the bottom.
The above is specifically about Crimson Trace and mainly snubbies, but it also applies just as well to P-3ATs, LCPs and also other brands of laser sights.
Some quotes...
"If I were a police officer today, I wouldn't consider going on patrol or walking a beat without a Crimson Trace equipped firearm."
Jim Cirillo: LE Trainer, Author, Retired NYPD and US Customs, 17-0 Record Against Armed Felons
"I consider my Lasergrips a key advantage that I would not go into harm's way without."
Ernest Langdon: President, Langdon Tactical Technologies, IDPA Champion and USMC Sniper Instructor
"For low light and dark, Lasergrips are a tool that I don't want to be without. By the time I had 300-400 rounds down range, I got to the point where I could trust that wherever the dot was, the bullet would go."
Mike Dalton: IDPA Steel Challenge Champion, Police Officer and Director of International Shootists Institute
"In the past, I had a total disregard for lasers. But, after testing and evaluating them, I now have Crimson Trace Lasergrips on my personal guns. When searching or clearing a room, the sidearm often needs to be held in a 'retention' firing position. With Lasergrips, I can use the flashlight, protect my handgun and sight my pistol at the same time. There is no need to lead with the handgun as many popular flashlight firing techniques require."
Ken Hackathorn: International Small Arms Instructor and Consultant
"I know what the front sight looks like, but in a CQB environment you never see your front sight. Why not superimpose a laser on your threat. I'm 50% faster coming out on target and can outrun my tritium sights by at least 20% in speed and accuracy with Lasergrips."
Todd Jarrett: World Champion Shooter, International Military / LE Trainer
"In my opinion, the S & W J-Frame revolver equipped with this unit has to be considered as the ultimate in a police backup gun or civilian type weapon carried for defensive purposes."
Colonel Rex Applegate
"I have Lasergrips installed on all of my duty/defensive sidearms and consider them to be an essential accessory. Lasergrips can save lives and reduce liability exposure."
Eugene Nielsen: Tactical Consultant, Author, former Police Officer, Contributing Staff S.W.A.T. Magazine Editor
"I carry a Lasergripped Model 442 as a backup gun....."
Massad Ayoob: World Renowned Firearms Instructor / Self Defense Expert
http://proarms.podbean.com/2009/01/04/018-crimson-trace-laser-grips-and-laser-sights-review/
Also don't miss the "Listen Now" at the bottom.
The above is specifically about Crimson Trace and mainly snubbies, but it also applies just as well to P-3ATs, LCPs and also other brands of laser sights.
Some quotes...
"If I were a police officer today, I wouldn't consider going on patrol or walking a beat without a Crimson Trace equipped firearm."
Jim Cirillo: LE Trainer, Author, Retired NYPD and US Customs, 17-0 Record Against Armed Felons
"I consider my Lasergrips a key advantage that I would not go into harm's way without."
Ernest Langdon: President, Langdon Tactical Technologies, IDPA Champion and USMC Sniper Instructor
"For low light and dark, Lasergrips are a tool that I don't want to be without. By the time I had 300-400 rounds down range, I got to the point where I could trust that wherever the dot was, the bullet would go."
Mike Dalton: IDPA Steel Challenge Champion, Police Officer and Director of International Shootists Institute
"In the past, I had a total disregard for lasers. But, after testing and evaluating them, I now have Crimson Trace Lasergrips on my personal guns. When searching or clearing a room, the sidearm often needs to be held in a 'retention' firing position. With Lasergrips, I can use the flashlight, protect my handgun and sight my pistol at the same time. There is no need to lead with the handgun as many popular flashlight firing techniques require."
Ken Hackathorn: International Small Arms Instructor and Consultant
"I know what the front sight looks like, but in a CQB environment you never see your front sight. Why not superimpose a laser on your threat. I'm 50% faster coming out on target and can outrun my tritium sights by at least 20% in speed and accuracy with Lasergrips."
Todd Jarrett: World Champion Shooter, International Military / LE Trainer
"In my opinion, the S & W J-Frame revolver equipped with this unit has to be considered as the ultimate in a police backup gun or civilian type weapon carried for defensive purposes."
Colonel Rex Applegate
"I have Lasergrips installed on all of my duty/defensive sidearms and consider them to be an essential accessory. Lasergrips can save lives and reduce liability exposure."
Eugene Nielsen: Tactical Consultant, Author, former Police Officer, Contributing Staff S.W.A.T. Magazine Editor
"I carry a Lasergripped Model 442 as a backup gun....."
Massad Ayoob: World Renowned Firearms Instructor / Self Defense Expert
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I dont count on anything... if I pull my weapon, I do so with the expectation of having to shoot. If the BG is deterred by something during the process before the shot is taken then I definitely wont complain... Although I would shoot someone when necessary, I do not look forward to a situation that requires me to shoot someone.
ONCE AGAIN... AS I SAID.... a person should be prepared and train... IE... expect the worst. That does not change any part of my argument... if you thinkyou would be better served by a laser affixed to your full sized 1911 or 8 inch single action (both of which would be much easier to aim without the use of an aid such as a laser than an LCP or Kel Tec) than on a smaller gun that is more difficult to aim for no other reason than its lack of size and the shord distance between the front and rear sight, then by all means go for it. Crimson traces add very little mass or size to the gun, do not effect the carrying ability of the gun at all and (when trained appropriately) it takes no effort to activate in a natural draw.
Your argument seems to be pull and empty the gun in one single motion without worrying about collateral damage... after all, they may not be alone, they may all be crazed drug addicted sociopaths out to kill you.
More likely, it is a thug trying to make himself feel better for his failure of a life by taking advantage of someone he thinks is weaker than himself
Nothing is a substitute for training and preparedness.... Lasers are an additional tool that provide several potential benefits with no drawbacks...
SwampWolf
Member
:
confused: And just where did I say that?
As I said earlier, I have nothing against lasers. If I could afford it, I'd have one installed on most all of the handguns I rely on for self-defense. But not my LCP. Installing a laser does have drawbacks: it adds to the weight and size of a pistol that I purchased solely because of its petite size and weight. If you want to compromise those advantages to have a laser beam reflected on a target close enough to spit on, by all means do so. But if you really believe the red dot makes you a safer person because it "deters" a felon from doing you harm, you are sadly mistaken.
you live in the worst cases scenario... which would be everyone around you out to get you... everyone is a sociopath bent on killing you and everyone else and everyone around them who isnt a sociopath themselves is a drug crazed maniac that couldnt be deterred by even a well placed .45 round.
I stated my answers based on my personal experiences and those of friends of mine.. not from things I have read or been told about by a friend of a friend who's brother was a hero in a mugging...
I am curious as to what you carry or would carry Swampwolf... I was under the impression you were of the opinion that Kel Tec's were useless beyond "spitting" range but the more I read your posts it seems any gun could be represented the same way. Do you feel that most encounters requiring the use of any personal protection device take place within that short range?
BG's are never surprised by a GG who just so happens to be in the right (or wrong) place?
BG's never give themselves away prematurely to one paying attention?
BG's never attack someone in the proximity of a GG?
How bout home defense? how can one use a shotgun or other long gun in hand to hand range?
You make several valid points but I must disagree with the added weight and size as the Crimson trace on my P3AT makes no noticeable difference in the weight or dementions of the gun as well as the scenario you pose of a BG within "spitting" range.
If a BG is really that close, has already made his/her move and has his/her hands on you just how do you plan on unholstering your gun safely? Once the Battery or whatever else the BG has planned has begun drawing your gun (presumably with the BG on top of you or in your face) would only worsen the situation.. If you wait this long, hand to hand combat techniques will serve you much better than a gun.
paradox998
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I have a crimson trace on my P3AT. Adds very little weight and does help with printing. also it does not seem to impact the holsters I use. All in all I like it and I do think it may help in a high stress situation, but I hope I do not need to find out.
SwampWolf
Member
Pt1911: Don't try putting words in my mouth just in an attempt to buttress your argument. Reexamine this thread and/or do a search on all of my posts on THR or any other site I've been active in and you will never see where I ever advocated what you allege. I have recommended that a person carrying a gun for self-defense should be prepared for the worst- which is much the same advice as you have rendered:
Then you claim this:
I stated my answers based on my personal experiences and those of friends of mine.. not from things I have read
When you said this:
I agree with oak1971's answer to your earlier question:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PT1911
it you wait for someone to grab hold of you before you shoot your gun you likely just lost.
I dont understand the logic of waiting for the BG to get close... would you do the same with a full size 1911 or Glock? if a BG is coming at me with intent to do me harm or worse I am not going to wait for 10 feet or less... Optimally, warn, pull, (warn...some would say) and shoot...
Maybe not to you but it does to me.
During this "debate", I've tried to make the following positions clear:
I purchased a small .380 (Ruger LCP) to play a limited role in my ccw practices; that is to continue to be armed even when my state of attire (which is generally predicated on the climate and/or social circumstance) precludes carrying a more effective (bigger) weapon. I wanted my "hot weather/going to a wedding" piece to be as small, light and compact as practical. I not only believe that the addition of a laser sight compromises these goals (however slightly) but that it does so needlessly when you take into account the typical short ranges most armed encounters occur.
Though I am in agreement with much of what you advocate in terms of tactical defense strategies, I take strong exception to the notion that (1) a laser sight contributes any significant deterrent to a committed assailant and I believe that (2) shouting a warning to the bg before you act is a good way to tip the scales in his favor. Announcing your presence and intent might be necessary for tv cops as well as legitimate law enforcement but, in the case of a civilian defending himself against a deadly assault, no such admonition is necessary, let alone recommended.
I suppose we may have to agree to disagree on these issues. But a good discussion about matters that have high import in terms of survival is always healthy and, hey, maybe something new and helpful can be learned along the way for all participants.
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HisSoldier
Member
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- Sep 26, 2007
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- 1,330
I'm surprised that any of you have found that a laser on a P3AT shrinks groups at all, I found the opposite. My smallest groups by far were using open sights because with the trigger pull of that gun that dot is flying all over the place. I did drill and paint three dots, which made the sights much better!
Maybe it was just me.
Maybe it was just me.
RX-178
Member
I'm honestly surprised that the laser helped make smaller groups as well and I work for an optics company that makes laser sights!
I GUESS that if you've practiced (and practiced, and practiced, and practiced, and before I forget, PRACTICED) with a laser sight more than with open sights, it does make sense, but I never viewed laser aiming devices as being more accurate than iron sights.
In my opinion, I always viewed laser sights as a way to enable you to fire your weapon with minute-of-bad-guy accuracy while your weapon is not raised up to eye-level.
The classic example is the much-maligned PGO shotgun. I am not a big PGO proponent, but even with a topfolding stock, or what have you, you can find yourself in a situation where you really have to get off that shell R-A-T RAT NOW!, without the time to unfold the stock and put it to your shoulder. The laser will certainly come in handy for that.
That being said, lasers can be pretty expensive just for that remote possibility... but then again, a gun is pretty expensive just for that remote possibility of having to defend yourself, so it really is up to you.
I GUESS that if you've practiced (and practiced, and practiced, and practiced, and before I forget, PRACTICED) with a laser sight more than with open sights, it does make sense, but I never viewed laser aiming devices as being more accurate than iron sights.
In my opinion, I always viewed laser sights as a way to enable you to fire your weapon with minute-of-bad-guy accuracy while your weapon is not raised up to eye-level.
The classic example is the much-maligned PGO shotgun. I am not a big PGO proponent, but even with a topfolding stock, or what have you, you can find yourself in a situation where you really have to get off that shell R-A-T RAT NOW!, without the time to unfold the stock and put it to your shoulder. The laser will certainly come in handy for that.
That being said, lasers can be pretty expensive just for that remote possibility... but then again, a gun is pretty expensive just for that remote possibility of having to defend yourself, so it really is up to you.
GBExpat
Member
I have an ArmaLaser on my P3AT ... it came with a pocket holster so I put away my UM#1.
I like the low-light capability that the laser adds.
I like the low-light capability that the laser adds.
I have a laser on my officer 1911. It has GI sights otherwise. I have confidence in my ability to drop all my bullets inside the 8-ring out to 15 yards without the laser, but that's at the range with a reasonable sight picture, my target is stationary, and I'm not moving. I have a good grip with both hands. Even fast-firing where I can't see my sight picture, I have a lot going for me.
In a stress situation, I'm a lot more confident with the laser. I can always line up a proper shot with my irons, since that's how I practice, but it adds the ability to very accurately fire from a non-ideal stance, and I imagine would be much easier to put on a target while moving.
I still practice with irons. I just like having that bobbing dot as an option. I find with the compactness of the P3AT I'm not worried about making it too bulky, but rather not bulking it up enough to make a less obvious print in my pocket. Don't have a laser on there yet, but like I said, I like the idea.
In a stress situation, I'm a lot more confident with the laser. I can always line up a proper shot with my irons, since that's how I practice, but it adds the ability to very accurately fire from a non-ideal stance, and I imagine would be much easier to put on a target while moving.
I still practice with irons. I just like having that bobbing dot as an option. I find with the compactness of the P3AT I'm not worried about making it too bulky, but rather not bulking it up enough to make a less obvious print in my pocket. Don't have a laser on there yet, but like I said, I like the idea.
SwampWolf
Member
Try using a good pocket holster; one designed to minimize "printing". Re the use of a laser sight in a high stress situation, imo, a bigger advantage than longer range and/or better accuracy over factory irons is the laser's distinct advantage in low light environs-when most armed confrontations occur.
AKElroy
Member
+1. TR. I have an LCP with a Crimson Trace attached. The Laser added next to ZERO weight, and the piece carries exactly the same as it did without it. VERY lite unit & extremely bright; I know they make one for the similar KelTec.
This is my wifes proverbial "purse" gun. As much as I dislike it, she is never going to train as much as me, or as much as I would like. The laser may give her a little more advantage & that makes it worth it. The biggest negative? The C/T is PRICEY.
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