Lasers at the range...too old school?

[goofy grape]

Lasers seem to be the rage these days, along with mounted flashlights. These give away your position to the BG and give him an aiming point. Use the irons, trijicon or just the age old point and shoot. I have night lights plugged in in every room, so I don't need a flashlight and gives good backlight for me to aim with. Never give the enemy an advantage.

 

[M2 Carbine]

They are thought to be faster than irons.

In my experience, not faster, but with practice, as fast and accutate when used in low light.
(IMO the laser should only be used in low light or indoors, especially when it's too dark to quickly use the iron sights)

 

[Eightball]

I don't see any major advantage on sighting in unless I was forced to draw the pistol off-axis and couldn't line up with my eye.

Because that never happens in the real world

M2 Carbine got it right....I didn't believe in lasers until I was able to do something similar with a buddy's 1911 at 15 yards. I wouldn't have believed it unless I did it, but I put a whole mag into a .75" group, weak hand, from the hip, as fast as the dot got to the same point on the target.

 

[9mm+]

I am not too old of a dog to learn a few new tricks. I will head to the range this week and practice some off-axis shooting with the laser. As I stated in my original post and others have stated in this thread, this appears to be the biggest advantage of the laser sight. I could use some more practice from the hip anyway...

 

[M2 Carbine]

Just one more picture (I like to take pictures )

On a past thread about lasers the question came up that the laser wouldn't be of any benefit in a very close up shooting, like 6 feet.
Granted, if you can't hit the guy from 6 feet away you don't need a laser, you need a lot more practice.

I never practice any shooting from 6 feet but I thought I'd see just what I could do from 6 feet with the laser.

(A little disclaimer. I'm 71 with a shaking hand and 71 year old eyes, so my shooting is what it is. I take for granted that you young fellows can do better )

The gun is a 3 inch S&W J Frame with Crimson Trace laser grip. Ammo is full load 160gr LSWC.
X and head were right hand point shooting, 5 shots each.
8 was 5 shots point shooting using two hands.
9 and 7 were 5 shots each point shooting left handed.



I was going to repeat the exercise point shooting without the laser but got rained out.
In any case the accuracy with the laser is far better than I can do without the laser.

 

[Grey54956]

Now, call me old fashioned, but I have always found iron sights to be faster and just as accurate (perhaps more...) than the laser. I think that I focus too much on the bobbling red dot than the target. The laser is a little distracting, while good iron sight discipline feels much more natural and confident. Maybe it's just me...

I will start being impressed with pistol mounted lasers when they can burn a hole through target and backstop at the push of a button. Where's the death ray pistols that science promised to deliver?

 

[M2 Carbine]

I am not too old of a dog to learn a few new tricks. I will head to the range this week and practice some off-axis shooting with the laser. As I stated in my original post and others have stated in this thread, this appears to be the biggest advantage of the laser sight. I could use some more practice from the hip anyway...

This is just personally one of the things I work on.

You have already determined that the BG needs shooting.

Starting from the holster or with the gun pointed a little in front of you, one or two hands, single or double action.

With your eyes focused on the target raise the gun to what ever height you decide, from belt high (faster) to just below eye level (takes time as shown by my timer).

As the gun is pointed at the target hit the laser as you start back on the trigger.
While keeping your eyes on the target you will see the laser close to where you want to hit, unless you are real bad at point shooting.
You don't "look for the dot". With a little practice the dot will be close to where you want to hit, when you light the laser.

In the next split second you will automatically bring the laser dot to where you are looking and the gun should fire about that time.

From the time the laser is lit, until the time the bullet hits should be about 1/2second for us old guys.

So much for the BG using your laser for a aiming point.

 

[Frank Ettin]

[1] It's my understanding that some trials at Gunsite suggest that lasers are actually a little slower than iron sights for someone who is skilled using his sights.

[2] However, they are useful in situations where you can't use your sights, like in an awkward position behind cover.

[3] However, they are not magic. Basic marksmanship skills are still required. If you don't have good enough trigger control to get good hits with your sights, a laser won't help.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Now, call me old fashioned, but I have always found iron sights to be faster and just as accurate (perhaps more...) than the laser. I think that I focus too much on the bobbling red dot than the target. The laser is a little distracting, while good iron sight discipline feels much more natural and confident. Maybe it's just me...

IMO if you can use iron sights, use them. Lasers ARE NOT a replacement for iron sights. The laser is for point shooting in low light.
People think the laser should be used in daylight and that's just not the case (IMO).

With all the laser practice I do I'm just too slow if it isn't dark enough for me to INSTANTLY see the dot when I light the laser.
People say, "I have to look for the dot". If you have to "look" for the dot there's light enough to use your iron sights, so why use the laser?
Now inside, in most cases I'd use the laser, even though I could probably use the iron sights.

It's said that about 70% of defensive shootings take place in low light and that's when the laser shines.

 

[alfack]

In all the threads I have read on this topic, I have yet to hear one good reason against lasers, but several for.

They don't replace your sights people, they are still on the gun. You can opt to not activate it, if you are concerned about giving up your position.

Also, I'd like to see someone shoot a gun w/o a laser, behind the back and actually hit something. Easy with a laser.

Personally, I would rather focus on the target and not the sights in a SHTF situation.

 

[M2 Carbine]

[1] It's my understanding that some trials at Gunsite suggest that lasers are actually a little slower than iron sights for someone who is skilled using his sights.

[2] However, they are useful in situations where you can't use your sights, like in an awkward position behind cover.

[3] However, they are not magic. Basic marksmanship skills are still required. If you don't have good enough trigger control to get good hits with your sights, a laser won't help.

I take just a little issue with 1.. Did those people spend some time learning to use the laser and practice with it?

One thing I've noticed is some experienced shooters have trouble when first using the laser. Two good friends, good shooters, couldn't hit a thing with the laser for a while, so they didn't like it. After a little work they are sold on it now.


Story.
A few weeks ago a friend's daughter was shooting at my place. I've been teaching her to shoot. She has shot about 8 or 9 times now and is doing great.
This day she was shooting a 3 inch S&W J Frame. Even though she was doing good on most targets she could not run all 5 steel 3 inch targets.

As we were packing up I handed her my Crimson Trace equipped J Frame and said, Now get all of those targets using the laser.
She hit all of them like she had been dropping them all day.

My friend, her dad, and one of those shooters that had disliked the laser said, "Now that shows the reason for having a laser on a gun".

 

[TheElyrian]

Hey 9mm.

I was wondering if the LaserLyte you have is the "LL-1 LaserLyte Combo Sub-Compact Laser and Flashlight System" and if so if you could give me any details on the strength of the white light, ease of taking off and on, sighting in, etc.

I've been looking for a laser/light combo for my PX4SC and the only other one that I think will fit it is the Insight X2.

TIA.

 

[9mm+]

Hey Elyrian -- the LaserLyte I have is the version 2. The Weaver mounts are all-metal and very secure. The laser has a second rail option below that can be used to mount the included flashlight or whatever else you want that is rail-mountable. The flashlight uses three LED's and is plenty bright in dark surroundings. You can mount a stronger flashlight if you like, but this one should do the trick.

Below I have taken a few photos of my SA XD40 with the LaserLyte. You can see the orange button switch for the laser in the first photo and a silding switch for the flashlight. The second photo shows the three LED's.

 

[9mm+]

Ok, I went to the range today with a buddy and used the laser from the hip. Groupings were *okay* and got better after the second box of 50. My buddy shoots a Sig 226 and we swapped pistols around. We both found the laser pretty handy for off-axis shots but still prefer the iron sights wherever possible. The laser definitely helped with proper grip and trigger pull during slow fire.

 

[counterclockwise]

I was going to pass on the laser sight as well, until I saw the demo video. One can shoot between the legs, behind the back, etc. with deadly accuracy using the darn things. I bought a cheap WallyWorld version for my house handgun. Had to do a little smithing to get the chinese mount to work and settle down. Took it to the range and ran a box of plinkers through. Had to do a little more smithing. Now it is steady as a rock. Only thing one has to worry about is bouncing the laser beam off a reflection, such as a mirror. That could throw you.

I am going to buy another now and put it on my houselonggun.

 

[sohcgt2]

I don't see any major advantage on sighting in unless I was forced to draw the pistol off-axis and couldn't line up with my eye.

Just one more tactical advantage like tritium sights an extra magazine or a BUG. When it's time to meet force with force any advantage you can gain may be the one that saves your life.

 

[Humakavula]

Did anyone hear the story about the Selma TX LEO that was under fire from a guy using an AK? well after who knows how many shots from the AK the area was dense with smoke the LEO guided his laser across a dividing wall on the highway watching it until he saw his target and fired... hitting the suspect three times ...through lots of smoke... thats a good reason for a laser

https://www.lasermax.com/products/trafficStop.php? < this is a video of the event.

 

[olla86]

Grey54956, You are not old fashioned, but very thorough...It is not a drawback...
P.S. excellent signature!

 

[ByAnyMeans]

I have two defensive handguns. A Glock 26 with night sights and no laser, A Keltec P3AT with a Crimson Trace laser.

The laser on my pocket pistol does three things for me

1) improves the pretty much non-existent sights
2) extends it's effective range
3) allows sighting in on a target from the hip.


Since it's a close up weapon the laser is great. My G26 points well for close hip shooting and the n.s. are better for distance shooting.

 

[bradfromearth]

OK folks I am going to close this argument out ONCE AND FOR ALL..

First I want to preface with the known fact that highly trained soldiers crap or piss their pants, or both in combat.

The reality is this… Unless you HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN A SHOOTING you do NOT know how YOU will react. A Laser can be a backup if you succumb to your primal instincts. They are cheap when compared to the value of your life and or loved ones.

We all have heard about tunnel vision and such. We do know that human nature is to LOOK AT THE THREAT. Frankly, it is VERY UNNATURAL to NOT look at the intended target/threat. Think about it. The batter looks at the ball - the pitcher looks at the catcher’s mitt - Lebron James looks at the rim and I could go on and on. Shooting is the only thing I can think of where you DON’T look at the intended target.

So there you have it. I use lasers because hopefully I will look at my sights but if I don't I hope to see a little red or green dot.

A side note on effectiveness of them. I shoot a lot and I use the sights the most. I use the laser some, but mostly shooting from the hip or something. I did an informal test once with an M&P compact 40. I emptied a mag as fast as I could, once looking at the laser and once turning it off and using the sights. I did not time it and I honestly shot better WITHOUT the laser, but not by much.

I am also of the opinion that in a CARRY gun the laser should come on automatically like the crimson trace or a pressure switch. Anything you have to "turn on" changes your whole "manual of arms" which is best left the same regardless of the gun (autos at least) my night stand has 2 guns a quick grab with a laser and a 45 with a laser light combo for “checking out a bump in the night”

This is my opinion and I reserve the right to be completely wrong on all of it.

 

[el gato]

If it has batteries, it will fail when you need it most.

 

[CoRoMo]

If it has batteries, it will fail when you need it most.

Uh, no. I may fail, but you're wrong to say it will fail.

 

[M2 Carbine]

If it has batteries, it will fail when you need it most.

Anything electrical or mechanical can fail at any time.

In the years I've been using lasers I have not have the batteries "fail" but just two weeks ago I did have the batteries die, in a practice gun, while shooting. As with most lights I was given plenty of warning as the dot slowly dimmed and I had plenty of time to finished shooting the couple magazines I was working on.
Of course, I pay more attention to the ammo and lasers of my defense guns than I do to my plinking guns and lasers.

In those years I have had quite a number of gun failures while shooting but never a failure of a quality laser.

In any case, if the laser should fail, you are no worse off than if you didn't have a laser.
Even though the gun is far more likely to fail than the laser, a knowledgeable laser user practices laser failure.

 

[dom1104]

ok whew.

LOTS of bad info floating around in this thread.


First off, there are cheap lasers, and good lasers. the ONLY laser I will use is the CT laser in the grip. For reason everyone is well aware of, also because it is just a clearer, easier to see laser then bolted on chinese junk. I also do not like the Laserlyte model, its weak.

Second off, yes its easier for me, and my wife to use in low light or no light than sights. it just is, it turns on automatically when you grip it, and there it is.

Third, every policeman I have ever talked to said the laser on their tazer unit DOES make a criminal think twice. Movies have put that into their heads perhaps? this is not a reason to get a laser, but saying that it is not an additional deterrent is not born out in my experiance.

Fourth, it is the BEST kind of dry fire training available I am convinced. Laser and snap caps for an evening of breaking in that trigger

Fifth, it is not an accuracy aid, it is a low light, or odd position aid. of course a normal sight picture is better.

Sixth, the battery on a CT lasergrip lasts a LONG time. like very long. They advertise 4 hours of on time use, but mine seem to last me, like years.

Seventh, you dont look OVER your sights, the laser sits on top of your sights.

Eighth, would you people quit the BS about "flashlights are only good to advertise your position". So what, you are in special ops now? You need a flashlight so you do not shoot your wife, kid, drunk neighbor by accident rambo. Remember the 4 rules.

Ninth, LED flashlights are VERY powerfull these days. If you actually train in pitch black, with real lights, and shine it in their eyes, belive me its blinding, and you cannot aim to fire back with any accuracy whatsoever. In fact, after your eyes are adjusted to darkness, and that shone in your eyes I could be hit with a frying pan and I wouldnt see it coming.

So quit with the BS guys, stop repeating what you HEAR or just be quiet. Real life experiance only please. Get off the couch, turn out the lights and TRY STUFF OUT. It will save your life someday. And, its really REALLY fun.

 

[dom1104]

Ok I hate to do this, I really do.

But, I am going to pick on someone elses gun. Because it illustrates the point. People make decisions about lasers based on the crap that is out there in the marketplace. Please dont take offense 9mm+, but I am trying to dispel some myths.




Ok note, here, this particular brand is very small and dim, uses an odd battery, and only lasts 1.5 hours. it is also WAY below the bore axis of the gun, requires training and motion to activate, and is bolted onto the rail, preventing normal holster use. The light also, is of low quality, and is even further distended below the bore. I can SEE why people would hate lasers if this was their setup.

(forget for a moment it is a plastic pistol, and has a lot of other hateable charecteristics, one of which being non-removable grips, preventing you from using a "Good" laser.)


Enter, the GOOD laser!



Now this is my choice of gun, and laser. It has removable grips, allowing you to install a decent laser, ala the Crimson trace. There is no bolton screwydo to hold it there, and you can use it with a normal holster. it is aligned very closely to the bore, for better close range accuracy, and its activated by merely gripping it. The rail is freed up for a light if you so choose, which is not dangling down and that holsters are available for. The light uses current LED technology and is EXTREMLY bright. the strobe function is, not needed and goofy imo, but it is easy to flash on and off, being that the controls are near your FINGER where you need them, not off in space out front. Also it is waterproof.

I am of course comparing a $200 light and laser to a 400 dollar setup, but what I am saying is, dont make statements like " lasers suck" without realizing, that there is crap and there is quality.


(again I feel bad for ripping on someones gun, but a plastic pistol with non-removeable grips a cheap rail laser and a even cheaper light is my idea of )

I just want to re-iterate. Get a DECENT pistol, get a decent laser, and get a decent light. dont by 5 junk pistols, buy 2 decent ones. Buy quality accessories, or none if you dont want em.

But dont buy junk. It may cost you or the buddy that came over to play a joke on halloween, their life.