Last Stryker variant unveiled - with BIG gun!

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Hazwaste,

That parallel only holds up if the intended use of the Stryker AGS is to fight other tanks (the battle cruisers were capital ship hunters first and foremost).

A more apt naval parallel would be the armored gunboats the North ran on the Mississippi, sure you could shoot at other boats with them but they were designed and only meant to be used for shore bombardment. In that use they were fine, if they tried to take on a sea-going Monitor they'd probably have got their clock cleaned.

Same with the AGS Stryker, sure it could try to take on an enemy tank (especially given our superiority of FC and other systems), but that isn't what it is primarily designed nor by doctrine should be used for.
 
Vern Humphrey wrote:

But an IED that would blow a track off a tank will do more than just flatten the tires or a Stryker. Given equivallent IEDs, what a tank will shrug off will cripple a Stryker. What will blow the track off a tank will kill the crew of the Stryker.

You're oversimplifying here. Tanks are NOT APCs or IFVs.

First, weight of armor protection is weight of armor protection, wheeled or tracked. 70 tons of armor protection aren't going to do you any good against a triple banger (several ~155mm artillery shells) that goes off under the hull as you drive over at 20 mph. Merkavas have been knocked out in Lebanan and Palestine from large buried IEDs.

IF you're talking about APC/IFVs, Bradleys are going to be slower going by so you're still an easier target for a remote IED. Your Distance from the IED when it goes off is key. M113s or Strykers both up close to a triple banger (really close) are going to get rolled over, regardless of tracks OR wheels. Your best protection in that case is speed. The Hajji setting off the IED has to estimate your speed and if you're faster, he's got to hit that key at just the right time to detonate the IED. Speed is life in this case.

Don't underestimate the ability to sneak up on the guys planting the IEDs too. A quiet vehicle that moves 60mph can get there a lot faster than an Abrams can.
 
The thing to think about Strykers with the Heavy Divisions around is using them to get DEEP in the enemy's rear to disrupt his logistics. Bash through with tanks and then send the lighter faster strykers through like light cav.
 
My biggest problems with the Stryker is the same problems I have with the Humvee, and that is crew protection.

A Humvee was a JEEP Replacement. A jeep was a small unarmored car that could carry 2 -4 men in transit. Some guy figured out that they would make good scout cars, and then others added some guns like a 30 cal in the back, and they morphed into other uses like ambulances, communications, etc. Eventually Larger weapon systems like Tow Launcher were even installed.

But, the jeep never got armor, and was always intended to use speed, small size (so it was hard to see) and tactics (like keeping away from an enemy) for survival.

The Hummer is a great replacement for a Jeep. it carries a heavier load, and has better off road capability. It can also be used as a scout car, an ambo, comm van, etc. And you can even stick a 50 cal, or Tow launcher or equiv on it. BUT, you need to treat it as an UNARMORED vehicle, and use its speed, relativly small size and low profile, and tactics or its vunerable to even small arms. But, for some reason, some stupid idiots have decided that its now a Fighting Vehicle, not just a bigger Jeep.

The Stryker is in the same league as a Humvee, only a larger target, it costs more, has an enormous 50+ foot turning radius, and has even less space for the driver! Its too big to be a scout car, too small to be an armored vehicle. You can't uparmor it because then its too heavy for its own axles. Its already too heavy to airlift. Because it uses wheels, it has limited of road capabilities, and because it was designed poorly, it has limited uses in most battle theaters. One look at the RPG cages that have been retro designed for them (and they don't work that well) tells you that its not a Fighting vehicle.

Its basically a big crappy expensive Jeep substitute!

This is just another example of some top brass who were in cahoots with a defense contractor, and pushed forward a poor weapon system, so in return they could get some cushy defense contractor jobs when they retired.

The Bradley Fighting vehicle, and the new improved MTVL (the newer M113) should be the vehicles the army uses, NOT the Stryker. Hell, even the OLD M113s are better in most ways than the Stryker!

I've been saying this for years now. We shoulld have had our guys in M113s (which we still have a lot in the inventory) instead of being killed in Humvees. Better armor, ability to mount a variety of weapon systems, and ability to carry more troops than a Humvee.

While even a main battle tank can be taken out with a big IED, an uparmored Humvee and the new Strylers can be disabled by a simple RPG. An MTVL or Bradly, and even the good old M113s can handle an RPG and protect its troops.
 
Military Channel Show

Tonight, the Military Channel had a show on called "Anatomy of the Stryker". Interestingly, it preceeded an episode called "Anatomy of the Abrams". Both were fairly decent with a lot of troop comment and film from both combat and training. The troop comments on the Stryker were all positive. Of course, one has to consider that this was an "approved" production so only positive comments might have been allowed. It was pretty clear that if your only choice is between an up-armored HMMWV or a Stryker, the Stryker is preferred every time.

Regarding the Jeep vs. HMMWV vs. Stryker commentary earlier:

Although Jeep-type vehicles (the last being the M151 series) were "replaced" by HMMWV in inventory, they are not the same in some ways. I have read various places of the increases to the HMMWV GVW ratings due to the increased demands on the original chassis/drive train. One description that seemed apt was that the HMMWV started out as the largest 5/4 ton truck in inventory and has evolved into the smallest 2 1/2 ton truck we have. Someday, the Army will find out it needs a true replacement for the 'Jeep' and find some small 'car' for utility needs. The Stryker is a wheeled APC with limited combat vehicle capabilities. Being designed as an armored vehicle from the start, it is way better than any truck with armor kits added. It looks like it has a niche in today's combat environment. Stryker Brigades won't replace Mech. Infantry Brigades but will complement them on the modern battlefield. They can and have gone places heavy armor shouldn't and fight effectively. They seem to be quite a step up from the up-armored HMMWV.

In the beginning in Iraq, I have to agree that our occupation troops should have been issued up-armored M113s with ACAV kits instead of improvised armored HMMWVs. That might have saved more lives/injuries. There was one graphic segment in the show that recorded a HMMWV pushing a car off a road that turned out to have an IED. The explosion was tremendous and the HMMWV was scrap but according to the narration, the soldier's injuries were minor. I guess both vehicles protect their soldiers fairly well but you are more likely to drive a Stryker away while the HMMWV will be scrap.

Unfortunately there are politics and economics even in war. While the Army could use a lot of different systems, there is a limited budget and program officers tend to pull out all the stops to keep their project going at the expense of others. One web site I read indicated an opinion that the Stryker project people pushed their system, especially the AGS Stryker to the detriment of the M8 AGS that the Airborne wanted. Too bad they couldn't get both. Too bad the Army hasn't adopted/developed a 4x4 armored car so HMMWVs can go back to being trucks. One thing we used to say in EMS is: "life isn't fair, get over it".

Oh, and if we are concerned with crew protection, we could always revive the WWII German 'Panzerkampfwagen Maus' design. :evil: It had 8" of armor on the glacis and had a perfect crew protection record. Of course that was probably because it couldn't move fast enough to get into battle, much less manuever in a fight. After all, it only weighed 188 tons and had a 128mm main cannon and a 75mm coaxial gun!:what:

OK, it is late and I am going off the deep end. This is a great thread.:D
 
For all those who're beefing about the Stryker as a combat platform, field experience does seem to be proving you wrong. For example, this article from Defense Industry Daily gives a pretty interesting picture:

M1126 Strykers in Combat: Experiences & Lessons

Posted 11-Oct-2005 09:11

DID has covered the Stryker vehicle before, most notably for the unexpectedly positive reviews the nonpartisan Project On Government Oversight received when it spoke to soldiers who served in them and appreciated the vehicles' capabilities and stealth. That DID article also noted a positive review from Russian analyst Vasiliy Fofanov, who wasn't generally inclined to give American equipment in Iraq high marks.

Now a conference call from Mosul has added more specifics to the soldiers' review, and so has a recent article in National Defense Magazine. DID will share some excerpts from each, briefly discuss some of the lessons, then note a pair of recent DoD contracts covering repair and maintenance for these vehicles.


LAND_Stryker_With_Slats_lg.jpg


The Battlefield Reviews

Colonel Robert Brown commands the 1st Brigade of the 25th Infantry Division, operating in Mosul and the surrounding region in the northwest part of Iraq. They're also known as the US Army's second Stryker Brigade Combat Team. Elements of this command have been covered by journalist Michael Yon, who has done truly excellent work while embedded on his own initiative with "Deuce Four" (1st Battalion, 24th Infantry Regiment) in Mosul.

At one point in a recent conference call (State Dept. transcript here), Col. Brown was asked:

Q: Sir, this is Tony Capaccio with Bloomberg News. We met back in November when I was up there. I have an equipment question. Not only are you fighting the insurgents, but you're the highlight unit for the Stryker, that's gotten mixed publicity. We were told by The Washington Post earlier this year that it could be unsafe for soldiers to ride in. Give me the unvarnished assessment of how well the vehicle has performed and what are some of the weaknesses that need to be corrected.

What followed was a pretty impassioned response. Some excerpts:

"The Stryker's fantastic. It has incredible mobility, incredible speed. It has saved hundreds of my soldiers' lives. I'm telling you hundreds of their lives. We've been hit by 84 suicide VBIEDs [JK: car bombs] have hit Strykers, and I've had the greater majority of soldiers walk away without even a scratch. It's absolutely amazing. If I were in any other type vehicle, I would've had huge problems.

...And I love the other vehicles in the Army inventory. I had a Bradley battalion, but there's no way you could take a Bradley two years in a row in combat. You couldn't do it maintenance wise. We maintained over 95 percent operational readiness rate. We went -- with 5.2 million miles on the Strykers -- 5.2 million miles, and I will tell you, interestingly enough, that same Washington Post reporter, after that report came out, he came to me and he said, please, Colonel Brown, do not make me ride in a Humvee. He said please, let me ride in a Stryker. And I was too nice a guy. I should have made him ride in a Humvee. I let him ride in a Stryker."

Survivability? Russian analyst Vasiliy Fofanov may have had good reason to be impressed. Col. Brown:

"We were hit by 115 RPGs hit Strykers over the year we had here, not one penetrated a Stryker, not one. Not any -- no machine gun fire penetrated a Stryker inside. We did have a soldier that was killed in a hatch by an RPG -- standing up in a hatch, and they fired from a building on top, but not one RPG penetrated a Stryker; 115 hits, it's a fantastic vehicle. ...Does it need improvements? I don't know of any vehicle that doesn't. I'd put a laser range-finder on it. I'd stabilize the gun, maybe put a larger gun on it. The Army's working all that. Is it a fantastic vehicle? Yes."

The M1126 Stryker's main armor protects against 14.5 mm rounds, shrapnel, and overpressure, and serving Strykers in combat zones have been augmented with "steel cage" slat armor mounted on the sides as a defense against RPG-7 anti-tank rounds. Slat armor got its start in Iraq as field expedients for some Hummers, but soon became a standardized, procured Stryker kit. The 2.5 ton armor add-on is designed to detonate the piezo-electric fuze in the RPG's nose, and "misfocus" the shaped-charge jet. Weapons like the RPG-7 with PG-7VR tandem warhead or an RPG-29 weapon might give such armor more trouble; indeed, they are effective even against some main battle tanks with reactive armor add-ons. Fortunately, they appear to have been quite rare in Iraq.

Maj. Nicholas Mullen is rear detachment commander of the 25th ID's 1st Brigade. He echoed his commander's words in a National Defense Magazine article:

"I was here [at Fort Lewis] when they came up with the slat armor. Everybody's like, 'oh, it's a birdcage. It'll never do anything..." A month into operations in Iraq, his unit was doing a cordon-and-search operation with the Iraqi army at a mosque in Mosul. "We'd gotten a tip that insurgents were holding a meeting in one of the rooms off the mosque. I'm 50 feet from a Stryker that got hit with three rocket-propelled grenades. And everybody's okay. One kid got a little shrapnel from a mortar round."

He added:

"I've seen it hit with multiple rocket-propelled grenades and keep going. I've seen it hit with vehicle-borne bombs that you wonder how anybody could have survived - and everybody walks away."

If you want a very vivid report about a Stryker that parked right on top of an IED, and what happened next, read Michael Yon's "Angels Among Us."

Even Lt. Col. William James own brigade, the Army's first SBCT (3rd Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division who deployed to Iraq before 25ID rotated in) had its share of skeptics at first:

"I was a skeptic a couple of years ago," said Maj. Doug Baker, executive officer of the 5th Battalion, 20th Infantry Regiment in 3/2. "If you were off-road in Louisiana, there was a tendency to get stuck. You really couldn't get the Stryker through some areas where a Ford F-250 would get through... once you were on a highway, you're going 70 miles an hour very easily."

Bottom line for Maj. Baker, after being in Iraq with it?

"When you rolled out the gate, you were fairly confident that that vehicle was going to take care of you.... I'm familiar with what a Bradley can do. It's a fantastic vehicle, but I would take a Stryker over it in Iraq any day."

In his teleconference, meanwhile, Col. Brown of 25ID noted that he had also commanded an M113 company with General Casey at Fort Carson, CO. While he spoke favorably of the M113 Gavin, the Stryker clearly impressed him more. He even added specifics re: the Stryker vs. M2/M3 Bradley comparison. The Bradley may have better slugging and staying power in a high-intensity battlefield like The Thunder Run, but....

TONY CAPACCIO: "Colonel, do you have any specific tactical instances where in the city Mosul these vehicles accomplished more than a tank could of or a Bradley could have, given their construction and their mobility?"

COL. BROWN: "How much time do you have? Because I could give you an example every single night. I'll give you one example of a company. In Deuce Four, 1-24 Infantry, a young company commander out being very agile and adaptive, he went out, and during the day some cars drove by and fired at the Strykers. They chased the cars in the Stryker. You wouldn't have been able to keep up in a tank or a Bradley. They chased the cars. The guys got out of the car and being, again, the cowards that they are, they hid behind women and children, so the soldiers didn't shoot them. But they went up to the cars. They found caches of weapons in the cars, and they found their wallets in the cars. They then went to some sources who said, yeah, we know where these guys live. So two hours later, they went and raided the home with one platoon, captured some more. Those guys talked. They went and raided more.

By the end of the night, one night, one Stryker company, about 120 soldiers, about, you know, 14 Strykers involved, went seven different locations, captured 15 out of 20 terrorist cell members, captured mortar systems, sniper rifles, a very large cache of weapons, et cetera, all that was mobile, all in cars. And they were able to get their quickly using their digital capability, using the speed of the Stryker, and oh, by the way, maintained perfect situational understanding at this time using a UAV up above and all the digital systems in what the Stryker affords. And the biggest thing the Stryker affords is nine infantrymen out in this urban setting -- this was all in a city, population of 2 million -- a very populated area, downtown city area that this happened. So that's one example."

That certainly sounds like Lt. Col. Erik Kurilla and Deuce-Four's M.O. In fact, if you want the full details, read Deuce-Four embed Michael Yon's report. What Deuce-Four did wasn't easy by any means: coordinating things so units arrive where they need to be, on time in an unfamiliar and potentially dangerous urban area, sometimes at night, while maintaining good situational awareness throughout and executing operations in a steady cascade. When DID and other sources talk about "network-centric warfare," Deuce-Four's operation in Mosul is a small example of what we're talking about.

Col. Brown also discusses the Stryker's mobility angle in his teleconference, and notes the ease with which he has redeployed Strykers from Fallujah to Mosul and back, quickly, with a smaller fuel logistics tail. Their mobility and advanced communications even allowed some units to successfully execute other missions that came down while the Strykers were in transit, and still arrive in time to be helpful.

Other mobility criticisms have centered around the Stryker's air-transportability by C-130 intra-theater tactical transport aircraft. The mobility Col. Brown described above is one reason this didn't bother the SBCT soldiers very much when POGO asked about it. National Defense Magazine's article also notes that:

"It does fit on a C-130. I've flown in one with it," said Lt. Col. William James, deputy commander of first SBCT (3rd Brigade, 2ID).

One should note here that the steel cage slat armor creates C-130 weight and fit issues if it's mounted or included, that preparation time and effort before and after air transport is a factor to ask about, and that other Stryker variants have different weight and size profiles than the M1126 Stryker ICV (Infantry Carrier Vehicle). In fairness, one should also note that the new C-130J has slightly better lift capabilities.

DID would be interested in seeing further, more detailed analysis of this Stryker air-mobility issue, relative to fully up-to-date practices and equipment.

Thoughts and Lessons

Editorial disclosure: Like POGO, I haven't always been a big fan of the Stryker. Reports from foreign analysts with no axe to grind, and even more so from front line troops who have served with it in combat, are changing my mind.

It's quite clear that the day of the heavy vehicles - main battle tanks, M2 Bradleys, et. al. - isn't done. Not by a long shot. The durability, cross-country mobility, and firepower of the M2/M3 Bradleys and their M1 Abrams companions matter when intelligence fails, or close combat with armor-equipped enemy forces is inevitable. The Battle of Thunder Run that collapsed Baghdad's defenses provides one example. Embed Greg Grant's description of the surprise encounter at Objective Peach by Task Force 3-69 on April 2, 2003 is another - an encounter at a bridge over the Euphrates that reminds us of the limits of even "transformative" situational awareness. The September 2004 Battle of Fallujah was another engagement that conclusively demonstrated the value of full-scale main battle tanks like the M1, which were clearly necessary when facing heavily-armed resistance in urban terrain.

So the Stryker is not a substitute, as some of its original proponents had hoped. Instead, Col. Brown's comparisons to the heavier M2A3 Bradley Infantry Fighting Vehicle show the Stryker as a complementary vehicle with different strengths. For sustained operations in cities or favourable terrain, a quieter vehicle that can survive basic IED and RPG attacks, travels quickly, holds up well through high mileage, lacks pavement-damaging steel tracks, and is equipped with advanced C4ISR communications, "Blue Force Tracker" software and displays, et. al. appears to have definite advantages.

The Stryker clearly fits that bill, but it isn't the only option. Nations who can keep these lessons in mind and put together similar sets of capabilities can enjoy similar advantages in related situations.

As the National Defense Magazine article notes, doctrine for Stryker Brigade Combat Teams has been a work in progress, and that work is still ongoing. More than anything else, it is precisely this doctrine and understanding of how to use the SBCTs which is beginning to emerge from experiences in Iraq.

On one level, therefore, these front-line testimonials are a testament to the Stryker vehicle specifically. It was the General Dynamics M1126 Stryker Infantry Carrier Vehicle that carried these soldiers through their tours of duty, after all. On another level, however, what has been validated is elements of a broader concept of warfare linked to the "transformation" efforts underway in a number of countries.

Note that we say "transformation efforts," not "wheeled vehicles." These two items have become connected in some observers' minds, but it needn't be so. An upgraded M113A4 tracked APC fitted with reactive armor and/or slats, a quiet hybrid drive plus rubber band tracks, and advanced communications gear could display several of the Stryker's advantages plus some of its own, and fit into similar doctrine very easily. So could advanced vehicles like BAE Hagglunds' SEP, mentioned in DID's coverage of the Czech government's $800 million APC competition.

Countries like the Czech Republic and Taiwan, which recently announced the beginning of full production for its indigenous CM-32 Yunpao ("Cloud Leopard") Stryker substitute, will get the full benefit of their new equipment only if they keep these experiential and doctrinal lessons in mind.

The same is true for other militaries around the world, as they all strive to learn the lessons of modern warfare in the way of the wise: from the experiences of others.
 
Another interesting analysis of Stryker performance in Iraq comes from - of all sources! - a Russian analysis. See here for the full article. I've posted Stryker-related excerpts below.

It is interesting to compare the losses sustained by the Bradley Fighting Machines from light anti-tank weapons and IED to the experience of the new Stryker Medium Armored Vehicle. This wheeled 8x8 has about the same ballistic protection as the Bradley (360-degree protection from 14.5 mm shells). Enhanced survivability against RPG is provided by slat armor: testing and combat experience in Iraq has shown that this steel grille is able to prevent the proper functioning of anti-tank grenades and the formation of a hollow-charged jet. The Stryker also has higher survivability against mines. Whereas exploding mines have almost always stopped the Bradley in its tracks, the Stryker as a rule has been able to escape from the area of detonation. For example, on 9 September a Bradley was blown up by an IED placed in a parked car on Haifa Street in Baghdad with an explosive charge of about 10 kg. The IFV suffered damage to its tracks and lost mobility. Two crew members were injured and another four were hit by small arm fire and RPGs when they tried to exit the vehicle. Reinforcement units evacuated the crew and the vehicle burned unchecked. On 11 October, 2004, a car in Mosul rammed into the side of a Stryker, detonating a similar explosive charge. The MAV suffered serious damage, the commander was killed, and seven out of 8 wheels were punctured, but the vehicle retained mobility and was able to return to base on its own. In another pair of incidents, a Bradley and a Stryker each lost their front suspension arm, on 12 October and 20 December respectively. Again, the Stryker retained mobility while the Bradley did not.

The Stryker APC was deployed in Iraq only after the end of active combat operations, so its ability to sustain a high tempo of attack under difficult climatic conditions remains to be seen in practice. Nevertheless, the high centre of gravity of these relatively heavy vehicles, combined with the crews’ lack of experience led to several unfortunate accidents. For example, on 8 and 16 December, 2003, three vehicles were severely damaged when they flipped into a canal, killing three soldiers. At the same time, the wheeled Stryker has an edge over the tanks in terms of speed and minimization of the damage to the urban infrastructure. Integrated C4SI provides enhanced situational awareness and allows the crew to navigate unfamiliar streets and rapidly come to the aid of ambushed comrades.

The Bradley Fighting Machine on the whole performed rather well, though the destruction of several vehicles by anti-tank RPG suggests that in spite of the significant resources devoted to the development of additional anti-hollow charge defences, U.S. engineers have not yet solved the problem of 360-degree protection even from older generations of light anti-tank weapons. The installation of slat armor on the Stryker APC marks a real breakthrough in this regard. This extremely simple design reduced the effectiveness of the older types of light anti-tank weapons by some 200% or more. Several firms, including the Russian Scientific Research Institute of Steel, have developed similar grilles. We can only voice regret over the tardy introduction of such grilles for use in active combat in Chechnya. The Stryker fighting vehicle performed somewhat better than predicted, and undoubtedly confirmed the relevance of wheeled armor. Nevertheless, the incredibly high cost of such vehicles (over 2 million dollars for the basic model) is not matched by military utility. That said, the development of this type of vehicle for Russian procurement and export seems justified.
 
I think the folks griping about the Stryker have never actually been in one. I was one of them. But, to see them, to ride in them...to jump out of one, etc. These things are just ridiculously quiet...they sound like cars. I haven't been to Iraq in one, but have met soldiers who took it up to 80mph (IIRC) chasing a car.

Honestly, the guys who keep bringing up the m113. Are you serious? I don't think you've actually been in one. That, or you've never been in a stryker. How much of this debate is between geek preferences? Rather than actual 11Bs, much of this thread is more like Star Wars vs Star Trek...a whole lot of unsubstantiated observations from TV...
 
The 105 mm cannon can also take out snipers, Rogers said, because with one shot, it can destroy the entire area where a sniper is firing from.

Oh, that's just PERFECT for urban combat, where the sniper is likely surrounded by dozens, perhaps hundreds of noncombatants who have no idea what's going on. Brilliant!

And I thought the idea was something that could, oh, I don't know, protect troops from IEDs, which are getting more and more effective? Maybe something with layers of polymer-honeycomb/kevlar/DU/ablative/reactive/kitchensink armor on the underside so a shaped charge doesn't punch up through the floor?

But that'd be too logical, I guess...

On 11 October, 2004, a car in Mosul rammed into the side of a Stryker, detonating a similar explosive charge. The MAV suffered serious damage, the commander was killed, and seven out of 8 wheels were punctured, but the vehicle retained mobility and was able to return to base on its own.

As for Russian estimates, though, I would definitely trust their judgement. There are an awful lot of retired Soviet soldiers missing limbs who remember what insurgents in Afghanistan did to their APCs...
 
You're oversimplifying here. Tanks are NOT APCs or IFVs.

Does that make the crews of the APCs and IFVs explosion-proof?

If you use a vehicle as a fighting vehicle, you're going to need crew protection. Special vehicles -- like those which mount big guns -- are going to need special protection. They'll be priority targets.

First, weight of armor protection is weight of armor protection, wheeled or tracked. 70 tons of armor protection aren't going to do you any good against a triple banger (several ~155mm artillery shells) that goes off under the hull as you drive over at 20 mph. Merkavas have been knocked out in Lebanan and Palestine from large buried IEDs.

But with this difference -- light vehicles lose crews to such devices, heavy vehicles lose only machinery.

I was wounded by a 155 buried under a mine -- it tore the right side of my M113 completely open. But the tanks of my brigade (1st Bde, 5th ID) never had a crewman killed until they hit tilt-rod mines.
 
First, weight of armor protection is weight of armor protection, wheeled or tracked. 70 tons of armor protection aren't going to do you any good against a triple banger (several ~155mm artillery shells) that goes off under the hull as you drive over at 20 mph. Merkavas have been knocked out in Lebanan and Palestine from large buried IEDs.

In the middle of January in 2006 my son's M2A3 detonated a a pressure activated IED South of Baghdad. EOD said that it was two 155mm and one 122mm artillery shells daisy chained together.

There were no casualties. My son who was the Bradley commander said that it raised the hull about 3 feet and really rang everyone's bell. Most of the damage was in the transmission and final drive. The hull was penetrated and the vehice had to be evacuated to Kuwait.

It was only a mobility kill. All other equipment, including the FBCB2 remained mission capable. This became important later that night. While awaiting recovery a supporting Navy aircraft picked up some insurgents moving toward the Bradley on a FLIR pod, forwarded the information to the Bn TOC, who forwarded it to my son on his screen and that warning allowed the dismounts to kill the insurgents.

I have pictures of the damage and the crater, but there is a prohibition against posting battle damage pics on the internet.

Don't discount armor protection. If my son had been in a Stryker or uparmored HMMWV, I'm sure he would not be with us today.

Jeff
 
Vern,

Did you see the "Anatomy of" show (which had a clip) yesterday on the military channel or read the AAR of the Stryker that drove over two 155's (IIRC) linked as an IED?

Blew the thing on its side but the only serious casualty was one broken arm and they were able to flip it back on its wheels and drive it back home.

Actual reports from the ground from all ranks are almost uniform in praising the troop protection, mobility and utility of the Strykers. They are maintaining (since insertion) a 95% operational readiness. There are reports from guys of their vehicles sustaining dozens of RPG hits to the slat armor and continuing mission unimpeded.

The theoretical problems that have been listed just don't seem to be occuring in practice. As a transitional system the Stryker seems to be doing just fine.
 
Did you see the "Anatomy of" show (which had a clip) yesterday on the military channel or read the AAR of the Stryker that drove over two 155's (IIRC) linked as an IED?

Blew the thing on its side but the only serious casualty was one broken arm and they were able to flip it back on its wheels and drive it back home.

Actual reports from the ground from all ranks are almost uniform in praising the troop protection, mobility and utility of the Strykers. They are maintaining (since insertion) a 95% operational readiness. There are reports from guys of their vehicles sustaining dozens of RPG hits to the slat armor and continuing mission unimpeded.

The theoretical problems that have been listed just don't seem to be occuring in practice. As a transitional system the Stryker seems to be doing just fine.

I didn't see that -- but having been in mech units and worked with mech and armor for a great many years, when someone says "95% operational readiness" on any complex system, it sets off the smoke detector in me kilts.:p
 
I have nothing but respect for you and your knowledge and experience Vern.

I think you might want to check out both that episode and maybe track down some of the raw data, you may be pleasently surprised.

The maint. number seems high but the maintenance chief they were talking to had that gruff-but-loveable honesty and was full of praise for his guys. The modularity and simplicity of the Stryker system was surprising (even given my lack on knowledge of the field).

They can change out a whole engine (or MAPP - modular assembly power plant?) in 4 hours with 4 guys. It looks like a brick on a chain as they drop it in place.
 
This reminds me of the Osprey scandal -- faking maintenance records is not unknown. Nor is dropping standards to make a low availability record look high.

In my time, I've found a lot of fudging -- for example, if a unit needs two generators to go to war, but only has one, the solution is simple -- lend your generator to the unit next door, and borrow theirs. Now both units have two generators -- on on hand, and one on loan that can be recalled at any time.:p

I'd like to TI those vehicles.
 
I guess I'd have to say you're making a LOT of assumptions on this topic Vern that contradict the reports from the ground. I know you've seen a lot but there isn't a big internet outcry by the guys using the Strykers that we're being fed a line of bull.

It isn't realistic they'd be uniformly silent on the subject if there was a real problem. Information is too easy to distribute nowadays for a military censorship conspiracy to be happening.

The Osprey trials involved a limited number of participants with agendas and were fairly secretive.

There are PFC's with internet and mail access living and dying by the quality of their Strykers and neither they or their grizzled senior NCO's who have nothing to fear from toadying officers seem to be flooding the world with stories of a big Stryker lie.
 
And THAT's why I'm not calling you a cynical old man who's just jealous of the new technology. :evil:

Seriously, I (and I know you do too) really hope the troops are being as well served by this piece of equipment as they seem to be.

Time will tell.

I am wondering why the AGS is the last variant being fielded, I don't see that they released the MMC yet.

<Mobile Mule Carrier - has space for 2 mules and their associated support equipment> :)
 
I am wondering why the AGS is the last variant being fielded, I don't see that they released the MMC yet.

<Mobile Mule Carrier - has space for 2 mules and their associated support equipment>

Do you know how long it took us to get the Infantry School to chop on gunpowder?:p
 
Vern Humphrey wrote:

Does that make the crews of the APCs and IFVs explosion-proof?

Is Level III armor bullet proof? Is Level IV armor bullet proof?

Bradleys were initially 14.5mm protected. They were uparmored to protect them against 30mm. That's a heavier vehicle in the A2 model @ 30 tons. Medium and heavy ATGM's will STILL blow through them front to back.

You're arguing that vehicles be able to resist ANY kind of explosion and arguing Tank level armor in the case of the bradley which doesn't even have that. 30 tons is not 70 tons.

If you use a vehicle as a fighting vehicle, you're going to need crew protection. Special vehicles -- like those which mount big guns -- are going to need special protection. They'll be priority targets.

Perhaps, the 105mm version is a support vehicle for the rest of the unit. It can patrol with the other Stykers, it can get there fast and keep up with the rest of the unit. A tracked vehicle that can't keep up with the patrol isn't going to be any good.


But with this difference -- light vehicles lose crews to such devices, heavy vehicles lose only machinery.

There's light, medium and heavy. HMMWVs resist .223, Strykers resist 14.5mm, Bradleys resist 30mm, Abrams resists larger calibers. It's a sliding scale. You seem to think that the Bradley is a panacea. It is not.

I was wounded by a 155 buried under a mine -- it tore the right side of my M113 completely open. But the tanks of my brigade (1st Bde, 5th ID) never had a crewman killed until they hit tilt-rod mines.

The M113 has LESS armor than a Stryker (and it doesn't have a V-Shaped hull!). The 14.5mm protection package is an external bolt on kit that's very obvious. Your standard M113A2 models don't have 14.5mm protection levels. That's more armor and a weight pushing beyond 11 tons and even with the RISE powerpack you're still limited to ~40 mph. How are you going to escort convoys or sneak around in that form? You're still limited to carrying just an M2 on the TC's position or perhaps the ITV version. Add the Blue Force Tracker kit and all the other electronics that the Strykers have and you're going to have a slower vehicle that costs the same trying to do the same role with less versions.
 
A few extra points.

the Stryker's main weapon is the infantry section. The extra vehicles are additional capabilities on the same platform for compatibility. All the other assets from the .50 caliber OHWS, to the engineer vehicle, to the 105mm equipped MGS is in support of that infantry force.

The V-Shaped hull aids in mine and IED resistance by sloping the profile from the blasts. This is old hat based on the sagacious experience of the South Africans.

See this link for an interesting discussion of the issues with wheeled armor and it's place on the battlefield.
http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showtopic=14355&hl=stryker

There's also this thread
http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showtopic=12215&hl=stryker
 
rmgill said,
A few extra points.

the Stryker's main weapon is the infantry section.

When and where did you serve? The US Army does not have Infantry Sections. We have fire teams, squads and platoons.

The extra vehicles are additional capabilities on the same platform for compatibility. All the other assets from the .50 caliber OHWS, to the engineer vehicle, to the 105mm equipped MGS is in support of that infantry force.

Let's talk about the .50 caliber OHWS for a second. It isn't very reliable. The crew has to expose themselves to fix it when it jams, which it does often.

Perhaps, the 105mm version is a support vehicle for the rest of the unit. It can patrol with the other Stykers, it can get there fast and keep up with the rest of the unit. A tracked vehicle that can't keep up with the patrol isn't going to be any good.

It can't keep up with the rest of the unit. Despite what the press releases say, it won't have the same speed and maneuverabilty of the standard Stryker. It's physically impossible to add the additional weight of a 105mm gun and ammunition to the vehicle and have it perform the same.

Add the Blue Force Tracker kit and all the other electronics that the Strykers have and you're going to have a slower vehicle that costs the same trying to do the same role with less versions.

That stuff is great when it works. United Defense has a huge operation in theater keeping all those gee-whiz electronics operable. What will happen if we have to deploy without the civilians?

The Stryker is a solution looking around for a problem to solve. I could see a battalion or two to operate in the rear areas providing security and convoy escort duty much like the old Cadillac Gage V100s were used for. But it's not a fighting vehicle. Give them to the MPs.

The thing to think about Strykers with the Heavy Divisions around is using them to get DEEP in the enemy's rear to disrupt his logistics. Bash through with tanks and then send the lighter faster strykers through like light cav.

A deep attack with wheeled vehicles and small arms? What are you thinking? You'll never fight your way past the enemies second echelon before you're destroyed. Strykers may be quiet but it's not exactly as small a signature as a light Infantry Bn on an infiltration route. You're putting out a very large signature for little more firepower then a light unit carries. Airborne and airmobile operations at least get the lightly armed troops past the second echelon. Nothing in the world moves faster and more effectively then an armor/mech task force when it comes to the kind of operation you describe.

News Flash! There has been no revolution in military affairs. William S Lind needs to shut his poser's mouth and go back under Paul Weyrich's coattails where he crawled out from. The principles of war haven't changed since the first primitive men banded together into groups and picked up clubs and rocks to go after the group living on the other side of the hill.

I'd suggest you read Not A Good Day to Die by Sean Naylor and Cobra II by Michael R Gordon and Marine Lt General Bernard E Trainor for a little insight on how well transformation and the revolution in military affairs is working out in practice. If it doesn't work real well against fifth rate forces, imagine how our transformed military will perform against oh say, the North Koreans or the new Russian Republic.....

Jeff
 
Stryker

I bet it costs a bunch to make titanium cannister shot; a mistake perhaps and it is actually tungston (can't use the dreaded lead ya know). Anyone know what caliber the shot is??
 
I think the folks griping about the Stryker have never actually been in one. I was one of them. But, to see them, to ride in them...to jump out of one, etc. These things are just ridiculously quiet...they sound like cars. I haven't been to Iraq in one, but have met soldiers who took it up to 80mph (IIRC) chasing a car.

Honestly, the guys who keep bringing up the m113. Are you serious? I don't think you've actually been in one. That, or you've never been in a stryker. How much of this debate is between geek preferences? Rather than actual 11Bs, much of this thread is more like Star Wars vs Star Trek...a whole lot of unsubstantiated observations from TV...

I have not been in a Stryker, but I have been in a Marine LAV in a combat area. Similar vehicle.

I have also used M113s, Jeeps, and even Humvees in my Military career.

I bring up the M113 as a replacement for a HUMVEE or an UPARMORED Humvee. We have em in the inventory, and they will take an IED or RPG round BETTER than any uparmored Humvee will. With a new armor package (which a M113 can handle) a M113 would be a great replacement for the Humvees now in use patrolling roads with IEDs and enemy RPG gunners.

I also watched the Stryker and Ambrams shows on the Military channel the other day. It struck me funny that every guy who praised the vehicle was comparing it to a Humvee. One guy said he has been in 2 IED attacks. One he was in a Humvee and an IED hit the vehicle in front of him, the other attack he was in a Strker, and the IED went off near him.

He said "I'll take the Strker any day!" Sure, I will too over a Humvee or an open duce and a half! I'm sure every tank guy will take an Abrams over a Styker every day as well! The show was pretty biased to show the Strker in a good light. It made no mention of its costs, the fact that it can't get to a battle area quick in a plane, its large size, cramped operating positions, limited weapons capabilities, or its large turning radius.

While the show did touch on the fact that it has basic armor, and needs a cage to protect itself against RPGs, it basically acted like adding a cage was SOP for armored vehicles. Does a Bradley need a cage? Do we weld cages on Abrams when we send them overseas?

The troops on the show also kept saying how great it was that the Stryker brought "Heavy Firepower" to the fight with EITHER ONE M2 50 cal, or ONE MK19 Grenade launcher. I had more firepower on my boat, (2 M60s, 1 M2, 1 Mk19, 3 Laws, small arms) and we could go fast and even turn around in less than 50+ feet! I have seen Humvees with more firepower, and rode in a Jeep in Beiruit with a Tow launcher! One Machine Gun or Grenade Launcher is not Heavy Firepower, its a bare minimum for an armored vehicle.

The other thing the TV show focused on was the electronics. Last I saw, electronics were not vehicle dependent. I can upgrade the old 8 Track stereo in my old truck to one with a CD player, no need to buy a new truck. My vol Fire Department just upgraded all of our radios without having to buy one new vehicle!

Gee Bob, the radio is dead, I guess we need another $600,000 ladder truck!

The show acted like only a Stryker brigade can have the navigation and communications electronics systems, when in fact the electronics could be put into Humvee, or even an old M113.

I didn't expect the show to bring up any of the negatives about the vehicle, or its applications. In fact, I would have been surprised if it did bring up even small shortcommings about the vehicle.

While on its own the Stryker may be a solid reliable vehicle, its simple not a great vehicle for the current Army mission needs, and apears to be a large waste of Taxpayers money.

The Army has to change its mindset and adapt to how wars and battles are now fought, and how peacekeeping duties are performed. They need an Armored Patrol Escort Vehicle that can take an IED hit, take some RPG rounds, carry some troops in the back, and carry some good firepower on top like a 25MM gun (as well as a M2 50 cal), turn in its own radious (that means tracks) and performs well both onroad and off.

Buy more Bradleys, or upgrade the M113 into a more heavily armored wagon, and stick some real firepower on top.

Or, just call in the Navy and Marines and get the job done right the first time!
 
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