LC 67 getting old??(30-06)

[pakmcc]

OK to fire! this is not a trick question, anyone can answer(If you have experience with an M1):banghead:
I have some LC 67 ammo, and I'm having problems with it. I think it's getting old. it will not pick up the second round in the clip. if the gun sits long enough to check the spotting scope it will not pick up the second round of that try(number 4 in the clip). I reloaded some 30-06 to try in the same M1 and there is no problem with my ammo. I tried to get a load that was as close to what every body thinks is the right load for the Garands. 47gr. of IMR4895 behind a 150gr. FMJ bullet.
The question?? pull the bullets and change out the powder or throw the primer and powder away and reload with new powder and # 34 primers??

 

[Slamfire]

Tricky. Shoots good with reloads but not LC67.

My first impulse was to say weak recoil spring. A weak recoil spring won't raise the cartridges up in time. My second impulse was to say the gas cylinder or operating rod end is worn out. Just like loosing compression in a car cylinder, not enough pressure to make things go. But then I read it works with reloads.

If the ammunition is weak it would be due to powder deterioration. When powder deteriorates it releases nitric acid gas and you would experience a high percentage of cracked case necks, before and after shooting.
Something you don’t mention.

Borrow a chronograph and shoot some LC67 and your reloads over the chronograph. I have shot TW54 and it went just about 2650 fps in a rack grade.

Still, my Garands will function with 168’s at 2450 fps, but grouped awful so I stopped with the reduced loads.

I am leaning towards something mechanical.

 

[cheygriz]

I would pull the bullets and change the powder. The pimers seem okay if the rounds are firing.

BTW, Remington 9 1/2 standard primers are MilSpec, just like CCI 34s, and more readily available.

 

[pakmcc]

I'll have to check and see if I can resize the cases without punching out the primers(depending what brand my reloading dies are)? I don't know if I can get the decaping pin high enough to not decap the brass after resizing the case.(neck). but if the primers are good, then the powder is going bad. I've got H 4895 and IMR4895 also plus 3031 and 4064. ACtually I'm hopiing to be able to pull the bullets with my Inert bullet puller.

 

[pakmcc]

well, I pulled a bullet on my LC67 and the powder smelled just like rifle powder, back to plan "C".
Pat

 

[Randy1911]

One way to resize with out popping out the primer is to remove the depriming pin from the expander ( I know that you can on RCBS dies) and go to town. It works fine for me. I don't own a Grarand but I read that Garands need a powder that is in the middle of the burn rate. Maybe you LC67 has the wrong kind of powder?

 

[GRIZ22]

Are you sure your LC67 aren't reloads? Is the primer still crimped in? If not its been reloaded. Did this ammo work well for you in the past? 43 years ain't much in the life of properly stored ammunition.

if the gun sits long enough to check the spotting scope it will not pick up the second round of that try(number 4 in the clip).

Are you using a 5 rd clip? Try your LC in a standard 8 rd clip.

 

[loadedround]

Just my comment and not a fix. I have a large lot of LC 67 ammo from my CMP days and it still shoots perectly when I take my Garand out once a month or so. I don't think it's an ammo problem.

 

[dc.fireman]

And to follow up on what both Griz, and loaded have said, I've bought LC69, which had been pulled down, and reloaded and it functioned much like what you described- iffy at best. Pardon me while I think aloud for a second - your reloads work, but the 'factory ammo' doesn't... Could it be that your charge is different from the original factory charge, therefore giving you a different pressure, leading to the malfunction? Or, some weak link in the rifle is exposing itself at one pressure, but not the other? What are you loading your 30-06 at? I think Slamfire has the picture I always refer back to - the old GI ammo can with the specs stenciled on the outside...

-tc

 

[pakmcc]

well, I pulled the bullets from the LC67 brass and the powder smelled ok, but I dumped it anyway. I reloaded the cases with 46 gr's of IMR 4895(I reloaded some fired LC67 brass the other day and 47 gr.s of IMR 4895 and CCI #34 primers. they worked just fine.) I was able to resize just the necks of the cases. I was able to save the primers. The primers looked like factory with a red sealant. I'll get a chance to fire these rounds later.(I've got a gun show this weekend.)

 

[Slamfire]

This is for 30-06 LC Match, which is a 174 grain bullet



For GI ball, I interpolate.

I bought a case of TW56 ball at the 2001 Garand Match at Camp Perry. This was good stuff for ball ammo. It is my opinion that the best military 150 gr Garand chow is the 50’s ammo, made when Garands were the service rifle. Late 60’s vintage stuff, LC69 for example, that is not as consistent, is inaccurate, is hotter, and only machine guns were around to shoot the stuff. Garands were no longer a front line rifle for the US. I would expect the standards on the later ammunition to be relaxed as the ammunition makers had been converted to Contractor, no one gave a darn, and the chain of command was up to their pants pockets fixing M16 problems.

I did a comparison between TW56 and my loads. You can see that in a 26” match barrel I got 2680 fps. My “test” ammo was 150 Sierra match. That got 2722 out of a 26” match barrel. When I shot the 150 Sierra match in two rack grade Garands, I got 2630fps and 2619 fps. My interpolation is that the TW56 ball ammo would also drop 100 fps or so in a rack grade. But I have not tested that and probably will not unless I am bored.

I may when I finally decide to shoot some of my unopened ammunition boxes of 30-06 LC match.

For me, I would keep all 150 grain bullets less than 2700 fps in my Garands. 2650 fps is not bad if 2630 fps will function the mechanism and give reasonable accuracy.

It is a big mistake to look at the technical manuals and copy that number of 2750 fps plus or minus 50 fps. That velocity (and the associated pressures) were calibrated to a single Government pressure barrel (and I don’t remember where) at a Government Arsenal. The Government acceptor took calibration cartridges and fired them in the vendor pressure barrels. My data sheets for the acceptance of WC852 show that they “corrected” the reading in the vendor pressure barrel, which incidentally were quite a bit less than in the Government barrel.

Instead of trusting paper values I trust my over the chronograph velocities. If the chronograph values are a lot less than the published military spec values, I believe this is due to the differences in the measuring equipment at the Government Arsenal, vendor ammunition plant, and my chronograph. .

I could be all full of it, but going magnum is not good for these mechanisms.


M98 26” 1-10 Wilson Barrel


150 gr FMJBT TW 56 Ball
24 Mar 04 T= 70 ° F

Ave Vel = 2680
Std Dev = 31
ES = 78
Low = 2620
High = 2698
N = 6

150 gr Sierra Match HPBT 47.5 IMR 4895 CCI#34 190 ≤ WWII ≤ 195 OAL 3.290"
24 Mar 04 T= 70 ° F

Ave Vel = 2722
Std Dev = 26
ES = 76
Low = 2673
High = 2749
N = 10


M1 Garand 5 925 XXX



150 gr Sierra Match HPBT 47.5 IMR 4895 CCI#34 190 ≤ WWII ≤ 195
24 Mar 04 T= 70 ° F

Ave Vel = 2630
Std Dev = 33
ES = 109
Low = 2580
High = 2689
N = 16

M1 Garand 5 827 XXX


150 gr Sierra Match HPBT 47.5 IMR 4895 CCI#34 190 ≤ WWII ≤ 195
24 Mar 04 T= 70 ° F OAL 3.290"

Ave Vel = 2619
Std Dev = 28
ES = 101
Low = 2559
High = 2660
N = 16

 

[Hummer70]

Gov't ammo in unopened cans has a projected min life of 125 years.
Once it is opened the projected life is 75 years.
If it has been opened and exposed to bad things like oil etc you can get into problems.

You need to chronograph 30 rounds and see what your extreme spread is and your standard velocity. Don't be shocked to see 100 fps ES.

Gov't ammo is chonographed at 78 feet but is you have center of your screens 15 feet from muzzle you should not see much difference.


Since it is only on one side of the clip I would say you have a Garand problem. Ammo loaded for the Garand was carefully controlled to give a port pressures about 8000 PSI. Now there was some 30.06 ball loaded which was restricted to belted ammo for BMG as the WC852 propellant exhibited "slow" lots. Thus these lots were segregated as loading the "slow lots" in Garand ammo gave excessive port pressure wrecking the gas system.

If you go to Perry this year or know someone that is going send it up and have them get the guys on the Navy Van to look it over. M1 Mechanics are getting hard to find. Also get them to gage the bridge to see if you have excess wear. There are a lot of tired Garands floating around.