LC brass not chambering in a .223 Howa

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CoalTrain49

CoalTrain49

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I was at the range yesterday and all of my reloaded LC brass failed to chamber in my Howa. This is a new gun but it happens in my other Howa also. It just happens with LC brass so I'm perplexed. It isn't one year stamp like 07 or 03, it's all LC brass. I don't know where the brass came from other than it's brass I have picked up or was given to me. The COL on all my ammo in the same. I'm using 55 grain Hornady FMJBT bullets if that matters.

My understanding is 5.56 and .223 have the exact same case dimensions. My Hornady manual confirmed that.

My theory is because it's LC (5.56) it was fired in an AR. I don't know why an AR chamber would be different but I know very little about them as I don't own one. It appears the shoulder of the brass has been rounded and isn't as defined as my .223 brass. It could also be the base of the case being too large but I have my doubts about that.

I full length resize so I'm not understanding why my LC brass won't chamber.

Anyone have any insight or helpful suggestions?
 
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"I don't full length resize so maybe that's the problem. Would a full length die solve this problem?"

Short answer? Yes.

The chamber that the brass was originally fired in was, most likely, larger (5.56 NATO Vs .223 Remington) than that that of your Howa. Therefore the brass, when fired, was fire-formed to fit that chamber. In order to put the brass back into spec. you must full length resize it.

http://saami.org/specifications_and...ns/download/Z299-4_ANSI-SAAMI_CFR.pdf#page=13
See Page 80 of the above .pdf
 
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Any time there is a fit problem, measure. Measure the OD in a few places along the body. Measure the neck diameter. Measure the case length. Measure the OAL. Measure the bullet diameter.

If you don't F/L size new to you brass you are bound to have problems, especially once fired (used) brass...
 
Did you check the ammo in a case gauge? It's hard to guess what's,wrong until we know if your cartridge is sized correctly.

If it is sized correctly it's possible but rare the brass came from a very loose chamber causing the bottom odor the case to expand slightly. This us when a small base due is necessary. I have never needed one and I shoot an AR-15 in 5.56mm and a Howa 1500 bolt action .223 rifle.

First thing you need to do is check your cartridges in a case gauge and make any adjustments needed to bring your ammo into specs. That has to be done first.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/268983/lyman-case-length-headspace-gauge-223-remington
 
RedLeg105 said:
"I don't full length resize so maybe that's the problem. Would a full length die solve this problem?"

Short answer? Yes.

The chamber that the brass was originally fired in was, most likely, larger (5.56 NATO Vs .223 Remington) than that that of your Howa. Therefore the brass, when fired, was fire-formed to fit that chamber. In order to put the brass back into spec. you must full length resize it.

http://saami.org/specifications_and...ns/download/Z299-4_ANSI-SAAMI_CFR.pdf#page=13
See Page 80 of the above .pdf
Click to expand...

I posted that I don't full length resize by mistake. I do full length resize. Sorry.
 
Any brass you pickup, not originally fired in your rifle needs to be full length sized. Most any semi auto rifle chamber will be larger compared to your Howa. This is why you need to full length size. Once fired in your gun you can get away with just neck sizing.
 
OK, I have a case gauge but I've only used it to check case length after I resize.

I checked a loaded LC round in the case gauge. The rim protrudes from the back of the gage. First I thought the rim was out of spec but micrometer says it isn't. Reversed the cartridge and rim slides in just fine so dia is fine. This leads me to believe the neck and shoulder are out of spec because that would be the only thing to keep the case from fully seating in the gage.

Bingo. When I examine a case with a magnifying glass I see a slight line on the shoulder where the chamber is contacting the case shoulder. These shoulders have been blown out by whatever they were fired in and my die isn't resizing the shoulder. I'm not even sure if dies do that as I'm pretty new to rifle reloading.

Are these cases garbage or can the shoulder be resized with some other kind of die? I'm using RCBS carbide die and they are working fine on everything but these LC cases. I have plenty of brass so if I loose a few hundred it won't break my heart.

Now that I've identified the problem has anyone else seen this?

Was there something wrong with the headspace of the rifle these cases were fired in?
 
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CoalTrain49 said:
When I examine a case with a magnifying glass I see a slight line on the shoulder where the chamber is contacting the case shoulder.
Click to expand...
Did you crimp? It's very easy to slightly buckle a shoulder. Maybe you didn't mean to crimp, but did. Check the seater die body.

Size a couple without changing anything. If they fit the gauge, maybe you buckled the shoulder.
 
If you set your FL die so that it contacts the shell holder at the bottom of the stroke, it should set the shoulder back to spec. So, first check that.
 
Just touching the shell holder to the die isn't enough force to overcome the spring in the press...it's got to hit and push hard enough to 'cam over' as mentioned by others. If that doesn't size them down enough to chamber then you need the tighter dies.

Being once-fired LC cases...you did trim them to length..yes? Pretty much every 5.56 case I've had will be way long and need the crimped portion of the neck removed to meet .223 specs.
 
I agree with walkalong. You describe the neck shoulder area is buckling when you push the bullet in. First you should be inside the neck chamfering (reaming) the brass. Then try loading a couple rounds with the same length bullet with NO crimp. I bet they will fit OK. Most shoulder buckling is with crimped ammo IMHO. As a rule I find my 223/308 ammo more accurate without a crimp. I have no setback issues and everything feeds OK so that is the way I roll mine. YMMV

The way to determine the problem fast is to smoke or color the outside of the brass with a dark magic marker and attempt to chamber the round. Where it shows brass is the catching/friction point you need to address.
 
I'll check the seater die. I didn't think I was crimping and I didn't want to. I read someplace that crimping wasn't necessary.

I checked case length with a gage but will check again. I'm going to pull these bullets, reset the dies and check the case length again.

It was just weird that it was only LC brass that was the problem.

I think I have enough info here to get this fixed. Thanks everyone.
 
Just a reminder, most of the commonly available case gauges only measure shoulder position and overall length. They are cut generously in the diameter dimensions so a case that gauges ok still might not chamber in your rifle even after full length resizing with a standard full length sizing die.

If I remember correctly, Sheridan Engineering and JP Enterprises make cases gauges, maybe more appropriately called chamber gauges, cut to SAMMI specs including diameters for 223 Remington.

Lots of good suggestions to check. Another aid is to color the case with a magic marker and try to chamber it a few times carefully. The ink should get worn off where there is interference.

I have an AR-15 with a 5.56 NATO chamber that gives me fits trying to get cases fired in that gun to chamber in another 223 Remington firearm. I have no problem full length sizing the cases and re-using it in the 5.56 nato chambered gun.
 
The brass on military brass is thicker in the neck. My guess is the thickness of the neck is your problem. I also neck resize all of my brass because I am going to use it in several different guns so I want the base of the neck set back as much as possible. I'm not sure this is going to fix your problem because of the thickness of the brass.
 
kwg020 said:
The brass on military brass is thicker in the neck. My guess is the thickness of the neck is your problem. I also neck resize all of my brass because I am going to use it in several different guns so I want the base of the neck set back as much as possible. I'm not sure this is going to fix your problem because of the thickness of the brass.
Click to expand...

Interesting theory. What dies are you using to put the shoulder back into spec. I'm thinking the shoulder isn't in spec after I size. That LC is some tough stuff.
 
I just finished tearing down about 60 rounds that wouldn't chamber. I reset my sizing die and resized them. That seems to be the problem but won't know for sure until I reload them. At least now they will seat in the gage. I found out my seater die doesn't crimp so that can't be an issue.

On a few of these it looks like the rim diameter is to large to seat in my gage so I just threw them away. if they won't seat in my gage there's a good chance they won't chamber.

I'm still perplexed as to why this only happens with LC brass but doesn't matter.

Thanks for the help.
 
Set yourself up with a bump gauge which is a device that measures shoulder position. It does not give an actual measurement of the shoulder position as it uses an adapter, but they can show a change in shoulder position before and after sizing. You can then adjust your sizing die to get the amount of shoulder bump that you want.

There are commercial units available by Sinclair, RCBS and Hornady or you can make one from an appropriately chosen case. The RCBS unit does its own measuring while the other units use a set of calipers.

There have been a number of threads on the forum with instructions on making a bump gauge adapter. Basically, you need something that slips over the neck of the case and rests on about the center or so of the shoulder. Then you measure with a set of calipers from the base to the top of the bump gauge.
 
I second what RecoilBob said about trimming your cases.

In my experience, once fired L.C. cases are frequently over the 1.76" ,max. length specified by SAAMI. If your Howa has a tight chamber, which it probably does, even a cartridge case that is 1.77" long may not chamber. (Remember, if you trim your cases, trim them AFTER they are full length resized as brass that is resized tends to grow in length.) I trim my cases to 1.75".
 
cfullgraf said:
There are commercial units available by Sinclair, RCBS and Hornady or you can make one from an appropriately chosen case. The RCBS unit does its own measuring while the other units use a set of calipers.
Click to expand...

I'm going to look at those if I continue to have this problem.

I'm also thinking that my swag may be increasing the dia of the rims on the LC brass. Not a huge issue, I have enough to cull a few.
 
CoalTrain49 said:
Interesting theory. What dies are you using to put the shoulder back into spec. I'm thinking the shoulder isn't in spec after I size. That LC is some tough stuff.
Click to expand...
Any sizing die will bump the shoulder back into spec if you adjust the sizing die correctly. Usually all you need to do is turn the die down a little more so the shoulder part of the die contacts the shoulder on the brass. This is why I asked you to check the brass and cartridges in a gauge before you did anything else. You already have what you need to fix this very small problem.

As for why only the LC brass did this, probably because it was fired in a loose chamber that allowed the brass to stretch a little more that a boot action rifle would. It's really not uncommon.
 
"...won't know for sure until I reload them..." Try 'em in the Howa's chamber after sizing. No bullet or primer is required.
Not knowing what's been done to range brass or even once fired milsurp brass is part of the problem with it. You need to check the lengths, FL resize every time(bottom of the die should just get kissed by the shell holder with the ram all the way up) and watch the OAL. Once the cases fit you can neck size only.
"...military brass is thicker in the neck..." It's thicker at the case head.
 
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