Thats my point. I prefer a flat point bullet like a LFP over FMJ and I think in most cases the hydrashok is going to behave just like that and its got pretty good velocity. I just don't see the wisdom in advocating SLOW fmjs just because they penetrate well in gel. I'll take a hotter round with either limited or no expansion. I'm not a fan of round FMJs for defense in any caliber. I would like the WWB if Winchester wouldn't load it to such a low velocity.
LCP: FMJ or HP for Carry?
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Thats my point. I prefer a flat point bullet like a LFP over FMJ and I think in most cases the hydrashok is going to behave just like that and its got pretty good velocity. I just don't see the wisdom in advocating SLOW fmjs just because they penetrate well in gel. I'll take a hotter round with either limited or no expansion. I'm not a fan of round FMJs for defense in any caliber. I would like the WWB if Winchester wouldn't load it to such a low velocity.
I can't seem to understand your logic!
The Winchester fmj FP penetrates 16" of gelatin even through heavy winter clothing and you seem to want more power/velocity for even deeper penetration?
Despite thelr higher velocity all but one premium jhp can not even reach the minimum 12" pf penetration the FBI recommends!
I think it was you that said the higher velocity of the jhp rounds would probably be able to break bones, but these rounds can't even reach minimum depth without hitting bone, so I can image that after hitting bone the round will penetrate even less.
These jhp rounds are not magic bullets. I'm satisfied with a round that will potentially go through and through and leave a wound channel 16" to 21" or more deep and if properly placed leave an entrance and an exit hole in a critical organ.
As for the effects of JHPs and FMJs being discussed here, are the penetration depths being offered for the sake of this discussion located in some sort of chart or table, or is there some way to (mathematically?) determine (before the fact) to what depth a specific bullet will penetrate?
I find this topic (and thread) to be very interesting and apologize if this question constitutes a thread hijack- this just seemed to be the most opportune place and time to ask.
I find this topic (and thread) to be very interesting and apologize if this question constitutes a thread hijack- this just seemed to be the most opportune place and time to ask.
NMPOPS
Member
My choice was #3, so not much else needs to be said.
There have been a number of links provided in posts to this thread with actual gelatin tests with the best one at
http://www.brassfetcher.com/380ACP%20ammunition%20performance%20in%20ballistic%20gelatin.pdf
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TimboKhan
Member
I refuse to carry fmj in my 9mm for self defense because this exact thing happened to me. The bullet zipped right through me and while it did tear up my kidney, I was combat effective for several minutes afterwards.
I believe that a hollow point would have expanded, done more damage, and delivered more "shock" to my system. Possibly an expanded bullet would have even hit my spine (the exit wound was pretty close), and possibly that would have immediately knocked me down. Given that I am typing this now and am thus not dead, I am glad it was an fmj bullet that went through me.
I will shoot fmj on the range, but every single self defense pistol in my house is combat loaded with hydra-shoks regardless of caliber.
There have been many, many incidents where people have been shot with 9mm, 40 cal, 357 magnum and 45 cal jhp and continued to fight and then there is the incident where a cop was shot with an NAA 22 cal pistol and died on the spot.
You might also look at…..1968 Miami FBI shootout
You might also look at…..1968 Miami FBI shootout
In reference to Timbokhan's rather close call, I have wondered if the over-penetrative qualities of FMJ are not a major reason for the long-time popularity of .380 acp in Europe and other locations. In an era when most ammunition was FMJ and most autos were designed for FMJ, a round like .380 FMJ had plenty of oomph to penetrate adequately but was less likely to over-penetrate and, if it did, had less remaining energy and was less likely to provide a danger down range. 9mm Parabellum FMJ, on the other hand, was and is a notorious over-penetrator, which posed far less a problem on the battlefield than it did in a city. My conclusion might be, if I can use good HPs, 9mm might be the way to go. If I am limited to FMJ, .380 looks considerably more viable as a choice.
Thanks.
Definitely one of the more informative sources in this thread, it really shows how far different types of bullets can penetrate. I've been attempting to educate myself about this topic, but it seems that little exists in the way of books and research articles that address the actual process of how this happens. :banghead:
IMO those are valid points.
The_Armed_Therapist
Member
4 pages... Probably long away from the topic, but hollow points for .380 are OK... The .380s popularity has resulted in some decent HP products. .32, however, is a different story. Stick with FMJ with anything smaller than .380.
Well I guess if your satisfied with (in most cases) less than 12" of penetration Jhp are ok.
Yes since I know the damage will deep enough to incapacitate.And I guess you are satisfied with minimal tissue damage.
And I guess you are satisfied with minimal tissue damage.
Without adequate penetration, expansion is all but meaningless.
Shot placement is king, penetration is queen.
I know a lot of people get hung up on this 12 inch penetration mantra,which most of us know was criteria for police type duty which most civilians wont be involved in.
Not saying it's a bad thing but the reality is even if a hollow point bullet that has expanded only gets 8 inches of penetration on a frontal shot that bullet is going to reach the vital organs if the shot placement is correct.
And yes I know the other argument that was presented by the pictures.
Not saying it's a bad thing but the reality is even if a hollow point bullet that has expanded only gets 8 inches of penetration on a frontal shot that bullet is going to reach the vital organs if the shot placement is correct.
And yes I know the other argument that was presented by the pictures.
For the purposes of penetration there is no legitimate difference between private citizens firing in defense and police officers firing in defense. If you believe otherwise would you mind explaining how "police duty type" varies from private citizens in this regard (penetration in gel/flesh)?
I, and many others, generally believe that it is wise to plan for a scenario that is something other than a by the book, best case affair. Some people are rather large. You may be firing from an awkward angle that requires the bullet to go through more tissue to get to vitals. There may be an arm or shoulder in the way, etc.
As someone who is learning about this and trying to sort this whole JHP v FMJ thing out, this makes a lot of sense to me. While I don't believe that a JHP would expand and not penetrate at all, I can see where (from the information presented so far) a JHP may not go deep enough to hit what it needs to hit.
Of course, this assumes that I have not missed something important in this line of thought.
Warp,what I am referring to is penetration of car windshields,barriers such as sheetrock etc.
Surely you knew this.
And the arm or angle penetration scenario I mentioned was also covered when I referenced the pictures.
Too much pentration in a crowded city might kill off the bad guy and Judy Jones 60 feet away walking through the parking lot.
Just saying.
Surely you knew this.
And the arm or angle penetration scenario I mentioned was also covered when I referenced the pictures.
Too much pentration in a crowded city might kill off the bad guy and Judy Jones 60 feet away walking through the parking lot.
Just saying.
huntsman
Member
If that factors into your cartridge choosing I think maybe you shouldn't be carrying a gun.
But that's NOT what we are talking about here. 8" of penetration in ballistics gel (/tissue) had nothing whatsoever to do with windshields and barriers. Also, generally when car windshields are considered one of the best answer is a bonded hollow point. If we were talking about barrier penetration, I missed it. Can you reference the posts I need to go back and check?
Of course. But that doesn't mean we carry .22 lr hollow points, or whatever else we think has the least penetration. A reasonable balance must be achieved. Surely you knew this.
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