Lead basics

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Schwing

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I am looking for some schooling on lead. For those of you who have been doing this for awhile, there are some things I am not clear about that I am hoping you can clarify.

I know that if you have lead of a consistent harness, you can work your loads up based on that and get accurate bullets that don't lead up your gun. In my case, I have a bunch of lead ingots from an old manufacturing company that are not consistent in hardness at all. Do you just throw them in a large pot (one potful at a time), melt them down and pour them into ingots again to get consistency or do you hardness test each ingot etc? Also, I have a source at a local junkyard that is about as inexpensive as I have found in my area but it would be misc stuff. They don't get many wheel weights so I would be getting unknown and varying hardness and would need to melt it down into ingots myself.

Any suggestions would be helpful. I have only cast a few hundred rounds but am really struggling to get consistent hardness with the lead I am using.
 
I can't help you but I'd like tapatalk to update me on this one. Also very interested in these questions.
 
Alloy a larger batch of it and aim for about the hardness of a commercial bullet, if you are doing light loads a bit softer is OK and if your bullets and cylinder throats are large enough or your load is higher pressure then harder will work as well.

You can buy a brinell hardness tester but a fingernail test will work if you have some to compare to and aren't aiming for an exact number.


PP
 
I have found that a hardness tester was a necessity. I cant hit a target if I don't know where it is. The LEE tester is difficult to use but time and patients will help. I finally can get consistant results using mine, and believe me .... it took quite a few readings to be confident.

Shoot for a hardness that fits your needs. I try to keep mine at a BHN of ten. Ten will make a nice Hollowpoint or anyother style.

You will need two pots. I use a turkey frier to make ingots and the LEE 20lb pot to cast. You will also need a source of tin and antimony to harden your mix (assuming you start with pure lead).

My alloy mixing happens in the LEE pot. I melt a few ingots then test. If I'm too hard I add lead, if I'm too soft I add tin and antimony in equal amounts. It doesnt take much. This will take a bit of time .... in the end you get exactly what you want. After a time you get a feel for it.
 
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Buy the Lyman Cast bullet handbook and do some reading. After that come on over to the Cast Boolit site http://castboolits.gunloads.com/ and ask for help to clarify any questions you have. Bullet hardness is not very important in regards to leading prevention. Fit of the bullet to the gun is number one and a good quality lube is also important.
 
I seen pics with the Lee hardness tester mounted in a cheap micro scope and using a one litre water bottle with hole drilled through cap and bottom cut off.
Its hard to hold it steady.
You can gas check some bullets and will help with less leading.
I don't know what the BNH is of mine, but 200 gr and 250 gr lead wheel wieght cast bullets in my lever action don't lead and thats 850-900 fps.
I also use a turkey fryer for making ingots and a 20lb bottom pour for my casting.
 
All good advice! +1 on the cast boolit site. I'm a member there, and they are very knowledgeable about all things lead.

I would probably blend most of what you have into a larger, more consistent batch. Then cast and load a few bullets to shoot. Then you can start adjusting the alloy, if you need to.

I would start looking for a deal on a turkey fryer, a propane bottle and a steel pot to smelt in. You don't want to put a lot of dirty stuff in your casting pot!

Start looking at tire stores, junk yards, or even car dealers for a wheelweight source. They make great pistol bullets, as is. If you are around any medical facilities, check with the x-ray tech for isotope containers. Roofers, plumbers, and contractors are a good source for soft lead. Any kind of type metal is very desirable, so hit any print shops or newspaper offices in your area.

I cast for a long time without a hardness tester, but it is nice to know what you are working with. Without one, you are mostly trial and error. Good Luck, Lightman
 
I wouldn't worry much about the hardness of the alloy. More importantly is that with each batch you cast that the diameter is the same and the weight maintains a 1gr or less variation.
Bullet fit to the barrel, and the quality of the lube will have a huge affect on the accuracy. Also make sure to clean the barrel of your gun very well before starting off with the cast.
 
+ on RugerBob.

Also the scale is difficult to see/read. It takes a lot of effort.



In this order:
I mix my alloy, cast, size then tumble lube. I size all of my bullets. I do take random weights and record them. I rarely get them within 1 grain of each other. A five grain spread is not unheard of. I'm not a competition shooter.
 
Buy the Lyman Cast bullet handbook and do some reading. After that come on over to the Cast Boolit site http://castboolits.gunloads.com/ and ask for help to clarify any questions you have. Bullet hardness is not very important in regards to leading prevention. Fit of the bullet to the gun is number one and a good quality lube is also important.
Would you recommend a particular edition? I can get the 3rd or 4th for around $20. Some of the comments claim that the 4th edition is great but eliminates some info that was in the 3rd.
 
I use my thumbnail for a hardness tester. If I can make a pretty good scratch, it's pure lead. If I can just barely make a mark, it's hard lead. If I can't mark it at all... I don't have any lead that hard, but it's probably pewter or lead-free solder or linotype, or something like that.
 
First off you might want to do a little testing prior to doing a lot of blending and smelting.

Testing with some muriatic acid first will go a long way in finding out if you have any zinc mixed in or not. It only takes a drop on an ingot to determine this. IF it foams or fizzes you have zinc, if not your clear to mix and blend as you want. It doesn't have to be full strength industrial type either some drain cleaners have plenty in them to indicate zinc presence or not.

Get a lead thermometer for sure and use it when your smelting. Go slow and bring the heat up as necessary to get things melting. Most alloy should melt at or below 700 degrees, and should be good and liquid by then as well. IF you find your pot full is chunky like oatmeal at 700, set that aside, and use something else for the time being. Also while smelting go ahead and use some sawdust to flux it out really well. This will give you real clean ingots that can go straight into your pouring pot once you done.

Those couple of little things can become big things once you get fired up and start blending alloy. The chunky part can sometimes be an antimony rich alloy which might be really hard until you blend it down with some soft stuff, but it can also be an indication of zinc. Thats why I suggested you test with the acid first to eliminate that as much as possible form any mystery metal.

I started off much like you, I had an accumulation of what I knew it was or and what it might be to start out with. I read a ton over on CB's and asked many questions via post and PM's. At the time my main concern was pouring up bullets for my 454 which is a powerhouse when it comes to cast, and having experienced a major leading issue years previous I had no desire to repeat that episode.

I had a small amount of wheel weights that I had smelted down into ingots. So i at least had a base from which to work. I really didn't want to spend a small fortune on tooling until I was sure I could make this all work out. So I was directed over to the following link, Testing Hardness with Pencils

This might sound a bit iffy, but trust me, if you follow the directions you will be within a point or two either side of what most testers will read. This was what I started out with and used to work with my unknown alloy. I have since purchased a Cabine Tree Tester and found this to be true, at least with the different know alloy I have on hand. What I like about this particular tester is that it can be used on bullets or ingots of varied sizes and still get repeatable readings. For testing ingots I like to use one of the small cube shaped molds like a Lyman, Castboolit, or RCBS, that throws one out around 2" x 1"x 1" square shaped. These give the best readings IMO. I also will sometimes pour out a dozen or so bullets of a RFN design and use them as well.

One thing you need to remember is that ingots will cool at different rates than bullets will. This said a big thick ingot might be actually harder or even softer than what a bullet cast from it is, simply due to the differences of cooling. Smaller amounts will cool quicker and due to their properties might be harder. Still if you have 38 ingots all within the same area, it stands to reason your bullets will also be somewhere within the same spread once poured. Your simply looking for a place to begin, and to adjust to from there.

That said I took some of the ingots I knew all came from the same place and blended them into one big pot full of alloy. I then poured this into small ingots of all the same size, which were cooled at about the same rate. I waited two weeks before testing to alloy the properties to all stabilize somewhat. It sounds like a real pain, but you will find it isn't much once you get started. After the two week period I tested with my pencils and wrote the results on the ingots with a Sharpie marker. In the mean time I had also smelted up my unknown alloy and poured it into smaller ingots as well. What I ended up with was some soft stuff that was around a 9'ish BHN and some that came out at around a 15'ish BHN according to what the pencil tests suggested. I then took 4 ingots of each and blended them together for a small batch of around 5#. Again I waited and after 2 weeks I tested these. The resulting alloy came in at around a 12-13 BHN which was right where my standard wheel weights were hitting. At this point I simply set up equal weight piles using ingots form each stack and then smelted the whole mess into one alloy.

So yes this can be done, but like mentioned you need a starting point and a goal your looking to end up with. Before I would tell you to simply blend it all up into one mess, I would first recommend you make it all into a couple of piles of individual ingots first and alloy them to cool at a close rate. Then simply random test a few from each stack and see where they land. This will give you a much better handle on what your working with, if that matters.

I hunt with the bullets I am pouring so I want each batch to be as close to the last as I can get. I keep my ingots separated in plastic tubs so I know exactly what is in each. I keep my mystery metal in as received condition so I know it's properties aren't known. This is the stuff I pour up practice ammo for shooting at the public range. Everything else is shot on my range and is recovered, bagged, and tagged, so I can resmelt it later on.

Read through the link(s) above, and it will give you a good start to at least finding out what you have on hand. Find you a good ingot mold and something to smelt up 40 -50 pounds of alloy in. If you have something you somewhat know the content of, pour it up first and use it as a base line for your other testing. Just remember though that even range lead poured up and cooled at different rates can and does show different hardness between ingots. That is why I mention to separate what you know from what your guessing at. It might be the same, but some might have zinc or other stuff in it as well.

Hope this didn't bore you to tears, and helps out some. Getting started off can be somewhat daunting for sure, but once you get a handle on a few basic things you will be miles ahead, and pouring up bullets of good quality and repeatable performance.
 
Casting Alloy- Bullet Diameter is Most Important + Lube

Lead scrap or WW go in 40 lb pot over old Coleman . Clean & flux, make ingots. Give each batch a lot number. Put some in 10 lb Lee pot. Cast a few. Check diameter and use thumb nail to check hardness. If undersize or soft, add some linotype. I just melt 2" of the Rotometal ingot into the pot. You can not hurt accuracy with to hard of an alloy. When in doubt, add linotype Lyman No 45 manual did all there testing with Lyman number 2 alloy*. Use 50/50 lube on rifle or pistol. Oven heat treating bullets for a 45 acp target load only makes the barrel look funny, but accuracy remains the same in my testing with super hard bullets.
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For those of you who use the hardness as a big factor, do you use the 1440 x bhn formula to work up your starting load? I got my hardness tester today and tested my first batch of ingots. They are between 11 and 12 so, if I understand the method correctly, I would multiply (splitting the difference) 1440 X 11.5 which is 16560, so my starting load should create a minimum pressure of close to 16460psi. Is this correct logic?

If so, is there an accurate method to properly calculate the powder needed to reach this pressure? For example, I have been using 800x with 148 grain LWCs for my .38 loads. The starting load for this according to IMR is 4.0 which only generates 9400psi. In fact, after looking at the IMR data, I also noticed that the max listed load for this bullet is 5.5 grains which still only gives 15900 PSI...

Am I just over thinking all of this?
 
Schwing,

Hardness is highly overrated, but it sure sells a lot of the bullets that the commercial caster put out.:D Consider this: Elmer Keith designed and popularized the .44 Magnum using bullets with a 16-1 alloy. The hardness of these bullets that reached velocities in excess of 1400fps? BHN of 11. So, no, I don't buy the 1440 x bhn formula at all. I load .357 Magnum and heavy .45 Colt loads regularly, and my bullets never exceed a BHN of 11. A correct bullet diameter and a good lube goes a long ways in lead bullet loads. Regarding your 148gr wadcutter loads, if you can get some pure lead such as sewage pipe at your local junkyard, just add some harder alloy to that along with a little solder and you will be fine. Just MHO.

Don
 
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Lead flashings pulled from old roofs where they re-roof is another good source of pure lead. The junk yard is sure to have some of those as well. They use plastic these days.
 
Plastic deformation

Am I just over thinking all of this?
Well, maybe. If you shoot from 7 yards, i would not worry about it, unless you get heavy leading. Leading = Loss of accuracy to me. The PSI can get to high for the alloy used, causing plastic deformation. Bullets can also skid if using a soft alloy, hurting accuracy.
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The one on the left was loaded over 17 grains of Lil' Gun. The one on the right was loaded over 13 grains of Lil'Gun. The one in the middle is not fired.If you exceed Lees Maximum pressure you will get Plastic deformation

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http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=35425#post35425
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This whole relationship centers around the elastic limit for the alloy you are using and what the elastic limit is. the elastic limit is the point at which stresses can occur to an object and it will return to it's relative shape. Once you have reached the deformation stage it no longer returns to relative shape. this is a very simplified version of this topic as it pertains to engineering mechanics of materials.

This is meant to be a guide and to keep you within safe/acceptable limits for pressure and alloy for your purposes. Obturated bullets do not mean that the shape has went through plastic deformation, just that it has expanded and stayed within the elastic limits of the alloy.

The formula does not take into account other factors that aide in reducing friction and thus combined forces on the cast slug. As stated above, one member is getting very good accuracy with soft (by most peoples standards) alloys in high velocity loads (for cast anyway).

Another factor not talked aobut is the pressure curve of the powder/cartridge combination. Does it spike quickly (fast pistol powder in rifle size case) or is it a gradual increase (full case of slower powder). Protection of the bullet base can also be a factor, we routinely do this by gas-checking, using lube wads, or fillers.
Plasticity describes the deformation of a material undergoing non-reversible changes of shape in response to applied forces. Obturate means to block or obstruct.
 
Pretty "newbie" to reloading nd the reference to sawdust fluxing is first I have seen...Is this: as good---better than--- or worse than---using beeswax for fluxing?
thanx in advance for your response.
 
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