Lead Cast Bullets might be OK, if???

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Quizcat

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It is not recommended to use lead cast bullets in polygonal rifling in the Glock, HK, Steyr, etc...

However, there is a bullet manufacturer whose marketing data guarantees the hardness rating of the cast lead alloy bullets. They suggest that much of the potential for problems is solved when bullets are cast to specific Rockwell Hardness.

I am wondering if the cast lead bullets commercially manufactured to strict hardness specifications, supplied with certification, is the exception to the "no lead" rule.

I have a Steyr S40-A1, which has the polygonal rifling, but a fully supported chamber, unlike the Glock. I was just wondering if lead cast bullets, provided they're precisely manufactured to a specific hardness, might be a safe option.

Anybody know for sure?
 
Most problems associated with shooting cast bullets are not solely dependent upon the variable of bullet hardness. You also need the correct size, lube, hardness/softness, powder type, structure of the bullet, and of course, the person squeezing the trigger...

And when the stars and planets align just right, you just may find that sweet moment of perfection... It's addicting.
 
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It is not recommended to use lead cast bullets in polygonal rifling in the Glock, HK, Steyr, etc...

However, there is a bullet manufacturer whose marketing data guarantees the hardness rating of the cast lead alloy bullets. They suggest that much of the potential for problems is solved when bullets are cast to specific Rockwell Hardness.

I am wondering if the cast lead bullets commercially manufactured to strict hardness specifications, supplied with certification, is the exception to the "no lead" rule.

I have a Steyr S40-A1, which has the polygonal rifling, but a fully supported chamber, unlike the Glock. I was just wondering if lead cast bullets, provided they're precisely manufactured to a specific hardness, might be a safe option.

Anybody know for sure?

Obviously you are speaking of Missouri Bullet? I shoot thier bullets through my glock with no issues.
 
I am not so sure.

IMHO, leading is reduced when the bullet base deforms to seal with the barrel (with the help from liquefied lube providing gasketing seal) from the high pressure powder ignition gas.

Normally, lead bullets used are sized slightly larger than the groove diameter of the barrel (.001" larger) and the rifling digs into the side of the bullet. If your barrel has "true" polygonal rifling (see comparison picture below), the bullet base must deform at 40S&W chamber pressures (around 22,000-33,000 PSI for lead load data) to match the polygonal shape of the rifling to fill the voids between the bullet and the barrel. If not, high pressure gas will escape through the voids and cause gas cutting/increased leading.

493px-Polygonal_vs_normal_rifling.svg.png

I am doubtful, but your challenge is finding a 40S&W lead bullet soft enough to deform/bump to match the polygonal rifling of the barrel and hard enough to stay intact with the working pressures of your test loads. And that may not ensure that your test loads will not lead in your barrel (see comments on leade length below). My Taurus PT145 barrel is oversized at .455"-.456"+ and with 12 BHN Missouri 200 gr SWC (Bullseye #1) bullet sized at .452", the bullet base deforms/bumps enough to not cause leading BUT I am using lower 45ACP lead load pressures (15,000-19,000 PSI).

BTW, Missouri Bullet supplies 40S&W lead bullets at 18 BHN and ZCast Bulletz at 14-16 BHN and I believe most other commercial bullet casters offer 40S&W lead bullets at 20-24 BHN. One thought is Missouri Bullet has foundry certified lead alloys at 10/12/15/18 BHN so you COULD ask if Brad would cast some 40S&W bullets at 15 BHN (Never know, he MIGHT find some "spare" time to cast some 40S&W bullets in 15 BHN ;) ... BTW, 9mm 147 gr FP bullet are 15 BHN). Perhaps you could order some 15 BHN bullets and ask a reloader who casts to pour you some 40S&W bullets? (What are friendly THR members for? You may find a volunteer just for curiosity sake) :D

As to Glock rifling, it is truly not a polygonal rifling as the barrel is round with six "hexagonal" rounded rifling.

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Another thing you'll need to check is the leade length of the steyr barrel. Leade is the space the bullet jumps from the chamber/case neck to the start of rifling. If the leade is on the longer side, gas cutting and leading will increase.

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When shooting lead bullets, longer the leade, more high pressure powder ignition gas leaks around the bullet. For this reason, many match shooters will use the longest OAL that will work in their pistol/barrel/magazine so the bullet's bearing surface will engage the start of rifling as soon as the primer is hit, but when using lead bullets in semi-autos, using the Max OAL is limited by your pistol's ramp/barrel/magazine so your working Ideal OAL may need to be shorter, resulting in gas leakage, gas cutting and more leading!

Below is a comparison picture of 40S&W Lone Wolf barrel on the left with typical leade length and 45ACP Sig 1911 barrel on the right showing very short leade (almost no leade) - Can you say chamber pressure build up PRONTO!. :D

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bds,

Thank you very much for all the information. I am really new to the prospect of using lead bullets, but fortunately not so new to reloading in general.

I know enough to realize that I have to completely acquaint myself with all the necessary procedures for safely using lead bullets, and that the added considerations complicate the standard reloading process a little bit, and that the differences should not be overlooked for safety sake.

In addition to reloading for the Styer .40S&W, I am also interested reloading using lead bullets for my Taurus PT140, which is currently my favorite CC.

Taurus takes what seems like an awful lot of disproportionate and undeserved criticisms in the forums. But my PT140 has been flawless, over about 1200 rounds through it, and it has been totally and completely reliable, and more so than a number of other major, pretentious, more expensive, and supposedly superior brands I've owned over the last few years. I will never understand why Taurus is so disproportionately ridiculed in light of my own very positive experiences. If you break down pistols in the Millennium Pro Series, and analyze the overall design, and their firing mechanisms, they are stronger and more durable than most of the major brands that are probably two to three times the cost. But, that's another thread...

I was thinking that practicing with lead bullets would be a little less expensive per round, so whether I do it with the PT140, or I do it for the Styer S40-A1, I'm realizing that each will require a little different set of considerations due to the Taurus having conventional rifling, and the Styer having polygonal rifling.

And, according to your explanation of the Glock's rifling, it not being typical polygonal geometry, and the leade varieties, it seems I will also need to further investigate just exactly what the true configuration of the Steyr polygonal rifling is, and factor that in to my proper selection of lead cast bullets.

Knowing that you have experience with the Taurus PT145, what type of lead bullet might you recommend for my Taurus PT140 with respect bullet size and hardness were I to acquire it from Missouri Bullet Company? My interest lies primarily in Missouri Bullet Company's IDP#2 or IDP#9. Are those suitable for the PT140, 40S&W?
 
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Quizcat said:
Knowing that you have experience with the Taurus PT145, what type of lead bullet might you recommend for my Taurus PT140 with respect bullet size and hardness were I to acquire it from Missouri Bullet Company?
As many would suggest, I recommend you slug your barrel first to determine the groove diameter of the barrel - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR_WiL8Dkgw

If your groove diameter is greater than .400"-.401"+, instead of harder 20-24 BHN bullets, I would definitely try the softer 18 BHN bullets from Missouri Bullet Company (otherwise, you'll need to use oversized bullets, but I found they bulge the case more and cause chambering issues in tighter chambers). For my M&P40 and Glocks with Lone Wolf barrels, 18 BHN bullets do not lead and produce accurate target loads using mid-to-high range lead load data and W231/HP-38 (Many will suggest Unique and slower powders but my experience has been slower powders need to be used at high-to-near max load data to produce optimal accuracy).

As to bullet weight, I would start out with 180 gr TCFP (IDP #5) bullet first as I find the heavier bullet easier to work with than lighter bullets.

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I referenced 1999 Winchester load data and Lyman #49 to develop my loads - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=8153227#post8153227 These OALs work well for me, but conduct your own barrel drop test to determine the Max OAL and feed from the magazine to determine the Ideal OAL.

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Perfect! I will delve into this and arrive at the true barrel groove diameter, and go from there. Thanks for the links...that made it so much clearer with respect to what I need to do to move forward.

Missouri Bullet is the one supplier I am aware of. Does anyone recommend I also try others? If so, whom?
 
My first recomendation is always Missouri Bullet, because of the awesome customer service and order turnaround time. I just ordered 5k from them this morning, actually. v Its also good to mention that THR members get a discount from Missouri Bullet.

If you are looking for other vendors to try I would suggest Dardas, they make some good bullets and the owner likes to frequent forums and help customers. There used to be a gent down south that ran Stonewall bullets, they made some really good bullets also. The folks at Lasercast also deserve a nod, they make some really fine bullets too.

There are a whole myriad of casters, some better, some worse. Many are not as good as the ones I mentioned above.
 
Bullet fit is the most important factor in cast bullet shooting. The bullet must fit the groove diameter to seal the bore (obturate). If this is not achieved, you will have leading.
 
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