Lead Poisoning....this is not good news

[Minion82]

Was this treatment done by a doctor? Not to jump to conclusions but it just sounds a bit....quackish.

I admit, a lot of the holistic stuff can sound quackish (especially when poorly described by someone without a full understanding, like me)

But I think that's just because such methods are not common. I mean really, the idea of bombarding you with radiation in the hopes that it will kill the cancer cells before it kills you sounds far more quackish to me. I'm fairly convinced that future generations will look back on that practice in the same way that we look back on the medical practices of medieval europe.

But back to the topic at hand.

J Miller, my Dad had chronic exhaustion due to high levels of mercury and nickel, it's not a stretch to assume similar effects could occur due to another heavy metal, like lead. However, lots of things have been known to cause chronic exhaustion... some people develop sensitivity to certain chemicals, others get lyme disease or Epstein-Barr and don't know it. From what I've heard, chronic exhaustion one of the hardest things to treat (by any branch of medicine) because there is no single cause.

Although I wouldn't worry too much about the lead paint unless you are eating it.

 

[esheato]

While there are some similarities between different websites listing the symptoms, the best prevention is to get tested regularly if you know you're around the substance. I wouldn't worry so much if I was loading jacketed or plated ammo. My problem is the casting and loading of plain lead ammo.

Ed

Source

Symptoms:

BODY AS A WHOLE
tremor
twitching
convulsions
muscle soreness
fatigue
weakness
joint pain
incoordination

EYES, EARS, NOSE AND THROAT
visual abnormalities

GASTROINTESTINAL
loss of appetite
weight loss
constipation
nausea and vomiting
abdominal pain

HEART AND BLOOD VESSELS
high blood pressure

NERVOUS SYSTEM
agitation
coma
hallucinations
lack of desire to do anything
irritable
uncooperative
headache
sleeping difficulty
confusion

WebMD

General physical symptoms in children and adults (usually seen when lead poisoning levels are severe)

Stomachaches, cramping, constipation, or diarrhea
Nausea, vomiting
Persistent, unexplained fatigue
Headache
Muscle weakness
Higher rates of tooth decay

Behavioral symptoms in adults

Unexplained changes in mood or personality
Changes in sleep patterns
Inability to concentrate
Decreased sex drive
Memory loss
Irritability

 

[EvilOmega]

So how do you get checked for lead?

 

[halvey]

3. DON'T SWEEP with a broom on an indoor range. The floor is COVERED in lead salts, and brooming puts them back in the air.

This one hit me. I used to sweep up the brass at an indoor range a lot.

I know a guy who's a gunsmith and small commercial cast loader. He also loads thousands of lead rounds a year. He does not wear a mask, casts in his heated shed and just uses a ventillation system that just sits over the casting equipment. It didn't look like it'd do the job at all.

He has never had a problem with lead and gets tested at least yearly. He said the biggest problem comes from shooting at indoor ranges. He said he will no longer shoot indoors. The last time he shot indoors he said he could taste the lead for days. I've only been at the place once, but the range was clean and seemed well ventillated.

 

[AZ Jeff]

Those of you who cast your own bullets have EXTRA considerations to take into account, since you are exposed to molten lead VAPORS, which are more easily ingested. If I were casting, I would do so using a fume and vapor hood like that which is employed in chemistry labs, making sure that the vapors are always being drawn away from me as the one doing the casting.

For those of you who did not read my first post, please note:

Handling metallic lead (solid bullets) is NOT a significant source of lead ingestion, provided you WASH YOUR HANDS prior to eating, drinking, smoking, etc., after doing so. Thus,wearing latex gloves while (re)loading ammo won't significantly cut down your lead exposure, provided you wash your hands as stated above. This is because solid metallic lead is NOT READILY ABSORBED through the skin. It's only when it gets in to the digestive or respiratory systems that it gets absorbed easily.

Likewise, wearing latex gloves while cleaning your guns will not do much to reduce lead exposure, again provided you WASH YOUR HANDS after cleaning.

For those of you who want more knowledge on how to avoid exposure to lead in MEANINGFUL ways that elevate your lead levels, contact ASLET, as I mentioned in my previous post.

 

[mete]

One test for lead is ZPP[zinc protoporphyrin]. Lead is measured in microgams /liter....The NRA will give you info on designing an indoor range with ventilation to minimize lead problems.

 

[S Roper]

"I admit, a lot of the holistic stuff can sound quackish (especially when poorly described by someone without a full understanding, like me)"

It almost certainly IS quackery. Please show me a scientific journal that where a test of the efficacy of this procedure was demonstrated. Since metal concentration is something we can measure it should be relatively easy to show whether this method is actually effective or not. Anecdotal evidence and the testimony of some quack means nothing.

The water became cloudy? Think about the concentration required to change the color of the water. Obviously it was something other than mercury or nickel that turned the water that color. I suspect it was an elaborate fraud much like the "toxins" that are visible from ear candling. Burning an ear candling candle always produces the same visual effect whether it is burned in someone's ear or not.

"But I think that's just because such methods are not common. I mean really, the idea of bombarding you with radiation in the hopes that it will kill the cancer cells before it kills you sounds far more quackish to me. I'm fairly convinced that future generations will look back on that practice in the same way that we look back on the medical practices of medieval europe."

Radiation does damage to cells. This has been proven over and over again in scientific studies. Is it the best possible treatment? Probably not, but it does have proven efficacy and will continue to be used until something else can be proven to work better and safer.

 

[Darkmind]

Wow, reading all this makes me kind of wonder about our brothers in the military and thouse of use who are no longer in the military. I can remember going for a week or two at a time without being able to shower or even wash my hands in the field. And most of our time spent in the field was doing day long shoots or even week long shoots.


Maybe i sould look into getting tested.

 

[Joe Demko]

Quackwatch.

 

[another48hrs]

Minion82, I have seen the water soaking technique and I've done it once. They stick your feet into a large copper bowl and send a mild magnetic current through it. At the end of the session you can see the water change colors, I guess cause of all the impurities. In the end the water turned a disgusting color and at the bottom they found little bits of metal flakes that weren't there to begin with. I think it may have worked, but without testing who knows for sure.

 

[Minion82]

Please show me a scientific journal that where a test of the efficacy of this procedure was demonstrated. Since metal concentration is something we can measure it should be relatively easy to show whether this method is actually effective or not. Anecdotal evidence and the testimony of some quack means nothing.

I wish I could. I would love to see some scientific journal testing of this method and many others, because it seems to me that holistic practices suffer from a mentality of "they say it works so let's not bother to do any research". And like you said, this procedure would be particularly easy to test. I will ask around and see if anyone can point me in the right direction.

I'm not defending all of holistic medicine (especially some of it's stranger practices, e.g. ear candling), just relating that this procedure helped my dad, and that's all that matters to me.

 

[Cosmoline]

It's my understanding that adults can cope with quite a load of lead in them. It's most dangerous for children. The methodology here sounds deeply suspect, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

", it must be the right kind of sauna with the right kind of heating elements, otherwise you can do just as much harm as good"

According to whom?? If the "Doctor" is telling you this, all your radar should be up! This is the classic pitch of the quack. Yes, it's easy and non-invasive. BUT DON'T TRY IT AT HOME! You've got to use this special sauna, and there will of course be a small charge...

 

[cracked butt]

I wouldn't worry too much about casting- so long as its done outside. There is a huge difference in temperature between the melting point of lead allows and the vaporization point of lead.
What I do when casting is wear a long sleeve shirt, pants and hat, that I only wear when casting bullets. I take these clothes off in my garage and hang them up there- they do not come into my house. I immediately shower after dasting or handling lead.

Get into a habit of washing hands as if you were an obsessive/compulsive handwasher.
If you must eat at the range, bring a bunch of wet wipes along and thoroughly clean your hands and face first before eating, drinking, or smoking.

I'm really afraid of shooting indoors as well. I shot at an indoor range for an hour earlier this year and it was really smoky with a few other shooters on the line, I had a nasty taste in my mouth afterwards. near the end of the shooting session, the owners of the range turned on the ventilation system- noneone in the shooting range knew that the vent was turned off while we were shooting:banghead:


I wonder how much exposure a person could get from cleaning guns? If people are using solvents to clean the fouling out of the barrels, I woul dbet that the stuff easily absorbs through the skin if one isn't wearing protective gloves.

 

[Minion82]

Cosmoline- Sorry, I should have been more specific. You need a sauna that uses near-infrared heating elements, with a temp in the range of 120-140 (I think). Standard steam saunas don't work as well because the humidity of the air prevents your sweat from evaporating, so you don't sweat as much.

Sauna's are good at removing chemical toxins (pesticide, carpet and wood chemicals, etc), as well as mercury and nickel; however, no mention is made of lead in the sources I looked at, so I guess it doesn't work well for that. The reason I said "a specific kind of sauna" is because if you are trying to remove something like formaldehyde from your body, you don't want to be sitting in a sauna made of plywood (which is treated with formaldehyde).

Note that, unlike the "through the feet" thing, there is actual research with blood tests to back up the effectiveness of saunas.

 

[Cosmoline]

Saunas make you sweat. So do very hot baths. Either will certainly pull toxins off your skin and clean our your pores. But out of your BLOOD?! Unless you open up a wrist in the sauna, I doubt that very much.

 

[Brad Johnson]

IIRC one of the treatments for high mercury levels is an old fashioned sweatbox.

Brad

 

[Jayman]

I tested out at 34 mcg/dl back in February. I was shooting a lot on a poorly ventilated indoor range. Right after that I picked up a respirator and started using it. (3M 6000 series with P100/MGMV filters.) Fast forward to June, lead levels dropped to 19. I'm gonna hit up the doc again come Feb and get re-tested to see where I'm at. Every time I shoot at said indoor range, I shoot with a respirator. I'd go elsewhere, but that range is really close and convenient to me. (Offsets the price and hassle of the respirator.)

So my issue was 100% shooting at a crappily ventilated indoor range.

A good friend of mine tested out at 42 mcg/dl back at the end of last year. He wasn't shooting a lot, but he was reloading a lot. The thought was the tumbling in an enclosed space. (Breathing the dust from that is apparently bad.)

 

[Andrew Rothman]

Eek! That settles it -- I'm getting tested!

 

[Sisco]

I have an Uncle who has been casting bullets for forty years or more and he casts a lot. I asked him once if he was ever tested for lead levels, he said he got tested everytime he had a physical, levels are normal.
He does his casting either outdoors on in the garage with the door and windows open, no exhaust fans or fancy stuff like that.

 

[K-Romulus]

lead poisoning is no joke

that's why I am "that guy" who wears a respirator mask at the indoor range,

along with some coveralls I take off as soon as I'm done with the firing line,

and some "range shoes" that also come off when I'm done.


It may look weird, but it's my doctor bills (and my wife/kid's)

 

[cracked butt]

Another thing I thought of:
I read about some new primers called "green primers" or something like that made by PMC (I think) that are either lead free or have reduced lead levels. IIRC they cost about 3x as much as standard primers, but as primers are cheap anyhow, they might be worth looking into if you have to shoot at an indoor range.

 

[Drewcat]

Esheato,

I haven't heard this mentioned yet, so I thougth I'd throw it out. A friend of mine (fellow IPSC shooter and re-loader) turned up with very high blood lead levels during a physical. The doctor wanted to start chelation (sp?) therapy, but my friend was worried about the side effects. He asked about blood donation on the theory that giving blood on a regular basis would remove lead contaminated blood that the body would replace with "new" blood. The doctor gave him the OK to try it (the blood bank was not concerned about the high lead levels in the blood because any person recieving the blood would only be getting a small amount of that blood).

Anyway.....after getting on a regular blood donation schedule and changing nothing else about his personal habits, his blood lead levels dropped dramaticaly. Call it an "oil change" for the blood I guess. Anyway, he's a true believer, it worked for him, no side effects and he's doing a good thing by regularly donating blood.

 

[Poodleshooter]

I stay away from indoor ranges at all costs,even during winter. I've tasted that sweet lead taste too many times. When I cast, it's with leather gloves. I usually leave the lead pot unattended while it melts (I cast on a bed of crushed gravel so there's no danger of spills). My lead levels were tested last year. I ended up with low to medium levels,which suprised me as a caster and reloader.

 

[Joe Demko]

I've tasted that sweet lead taste too many times.

Yep, lead oxides are sweet. Really, really old chemistry books even refer to "sugar of lead." This is also, for those of you who ever wondered, why kids used to eat lead paint chips. one kid I knew who did it said that they tasted like "sweet potato chips."

 

[Coronach]

Don't eat the wall candy, kids.

Also, Sugar of Lead was, apparently, quite popular with the Romans.

Concur with the precautions:

1. If you shoot indoors, make sure it is at a properly ventilated range.

2. Wash your hands.

3. Shower and change your clothes when you get home.

I think that following those three guidelines will pretty much reduce most people's lead risk.

Mike