Leaded or unleaded?

[TacticalJanitor]

I've recently loaded and fired my first 250 rounds of .38 Special (thanks to the helpful people in this subforum). Everything went well. Before reloading I was shooting purchased 148g WC at 800 fps (not proven, that's just what was on the label). Lately, I've only been shooting J frames with a little bit of .44 mag.

Revolver are a 2023 thing for me. I grew up with them, but didn't really shoot any for 30 years. 2023 taught me that revolvers are dirty. Greasy. Black hands and scrubbing lead off of everything! Gotta clean them or your cylinders will stop spinning. So much work!

But maybe not. I used "plated" 158g RN for my first 250 loads, and I am AMAZED at how much cleaner the pistol is. No lead to scrub out of the barrel. No black hands after range time. No smoke when shooting. I might be done with lead boolits.

I'm getting the 158g RN for $0.15 locally. My understanding is that I could buy lead boolits (pretty much any type) for $0.11 if I want to be particularly frugal.

It is known that wadcutters are very accurate with light loads, but I'm a combat drill shooter. Probably couldn't shoot a tight group if I ever tried to. The difference in cost is negligible to me.

Why would a reloader choose to shoot lead? I'm not trying to stir things up...I really don't understand. I don't think that saving $0.04 per round is worth all the cleaning and mess that lead requires.

However, I have the feeling that I'm missing something here. To date, I've only been exposed to the WC described above and assorted LSWC and LRN that were available on local shelves. They were all filthy. Could just be bad luck. Maybe it's the powder that's causing the mess? My reloads are Titegroup (3.2g). Pretty light.

How does everyone feel about lead vs coated vs plated?

 

[kalielkslayer]

I’m the last guy to listen to. I have a few 1,000 lead projectiles in my reloading room, “Extreme bullets.”

I only bought them in 2020 because they were the only thing available.

I’ve only loaded plated and jacketed.
But I have 600 lbs of lead, and a couple of molds.

I want to learn this science! For every “how do I get the lead out” post, there is a guy saying the most accurate load in his particular gun is a lead bullet.

Hardness, swaging, coating is all something that intrigues me.

But if all you want it carefree bullets, I would say to stay away from lead if you don’t want to take the time to learn the science.

That said, I don’t know the “science” but I want to learn, that’s why I read this post!

 

[lordpaxman]

How does everyone feel about lead vs coated vs plated?

I don’t cast so keep that in mind. Uncoated lead + lube + very-hot-burning-powder-Titegroup = smoke and all those byproducts. You’ll get smoke with slower/cooler powders as well.
I use a combinations of coated and jacketed. Not so much plated anymore, just because the cost between plated and jacketed has narrowed over the years. Actually the cost of any projectile has narrowed, but there’s still a difference and given the volumes we shoot coated is a bit more economical.
There’s also a school of thought that for pistol competition games jacketed bullets can increase precision. I do load jacketed for some of those, but it hasn’t really changed my outcomes.

 

[DukeConnor]

Sounds like you got some crappy ammo. I shoot lead bullets from my revolvers and I have never experienced what you are describing. I cast and powder coat my own bullets so that is probably a factor.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I've recently loaded and fired my first 250 rounds of .38 Special (thanks to the helpful people in this subforum). Everything went well. Before reloading I was shooting purchased 148g WC at 800 fps (not proven, that's just what was on the label). Lately, I've only been shooting J frames with a little bit of .44 mag.

Revolver are a 2023 thing for me. I grew up with them, but didn't really shoot any for 30 years. 2023 taught me that revolvers are dirty. Greasy. Black hands and scrubbing lead off of everything! Gotta clean them or your cylinders will stop spinning. So much work!

But maybe not. I used "plated" 158g RN for my first 250 loads, and I am AMAZED at how much cleaner the pistol is. No lead to scrub out of the barrel. No black hands after range time. No smoke when shooting. I might be done with lead boolits.

I'm getting the 158g RN for $0.15 locally. My understanding is that I could buy lead boolits (pretty much any type) for $0.11 if I want to be particularly frugal.

It is known that wadcutters are very accurate with light loads, but I'm a combat drill shooter. Probably couldn't shoot a tight group if I ever tried to. The difference in cost is negligible to me.

Why would a reloader choose to shoot lead? I'm not trying to stir things up...I really don't understand. I don't think that saving $0.04 per round is worth all the cleaning and mess that lead requires.

However, I have the feeling that I'm missing something here. To date, I've only been exposed to the WC described above and assorted LSWC and LRN that were available on local shelves. They were all filthy. Could just be bad luck. Maybe it's the powder that's causing the mess? My reloads are Titegroup (3.2g). Pretty light.

How does everyone feel about lead vs coated vs plated?

This is a pretty common question and the answers come down to personal taste and objective. That is: what you want the load to do and how you plan to do it.
First understand that plated and coated are still lead. The coating and plating are both very thin and underneath is a lead bullet. Jacketed are also lead but jackets are much harder and thicker than either electroplating or electroless copper plating. The various coatings have different properties but are generally just a very high temperature lubricant.
When you say “lead” I’m guessing that means traditionally lubricated swaged or cast. That’s what most people mean, anyway.
The benefits of lubed lead are in the fit and and the cost. Leaving cost aside - because then we have to consider value and that’s subjective - fit has several elements but size and obturation are what most folks consider. Size refers to as-cast or swaged. When a cast bullet drops from the mold, that’s as-cast. When the cast bullet is pushed through a die, or a soft alloy of lead is pressed into shape, that’s swaging - a.k.a. Sizing when talking cast. The size determines how well the bullet seals to the bore and blocks hot gas from escaping in front and around the bullet. The better the fit, the better the accuracy and the less problems with gas cutting, which leads to leading of the bore. A very hard lead alloy has to be sized to fit the bore very tightly. Softer alloys will obturate, expand under pressure, and fit themselves tightly to the bore.
There’s lots of factors to consider - base shape, alloy, lubricants, gas checks - but the thing is, copper solids and most copper jackets are too hard to obturate and don’t fit the bore as tightly - typically - as soft lead.
Terminal impact performance is a whole other subject and while relative, there’s just too much personal preference involved for an objective discussion. At least as far as I’ve observed.
Hope this helps.

 

[Walkalong]

Coated is the old plated these days as far as bang for your buck if you don’t want to shoot bare lubed lead.

Get some coated 148 WCs or coated 158 Gr SWCs and have fun.

 

[N555]

I run silencers. So I use plated or jacketed bullets and single base powder when possible.
Plated, coated lead and jacketed are way cleaner and give you like 1/10th the lead exposure of firing cast lead bullets.

 

[TacticalJanitor]

This is a pretty common question and the answers come down to personal taste and objective. That is: what you want the load to do and how you plan to do it.
First understand that plated and coated are still lead. The coating and plating are both very thin and underneath is a lead bullet. Jacketed are also lead but jackets are much harder and thicker than either electroplating or electroless copper plating. The various coatings have different properties but are generally just a very high temperature lubricant.
When you say “lead” I’m guessing that means traditionally lubricated swaged or cast. That’s what most people mean, anyway.
The benefits of lubed lead are in the fit and and the cost. Leaving cost aside - because then we have to consider value and that’s subjective - fit has several elements but size and obturation are what most folks consider. Size refers to as-cast or swaged. When a cast bullet drops from the mold, that’s as-cast. When the cast bullet is pushed through a die, or a soft alloy of lead is pressed into shape, that’s swaging - a.k.a. Sizing when talking cast. The size determines how well the bullet seals to the bore and blocks hot gas from escaping in front and around the bullet. The better the fit, the better the accuracy and the less problems with gas cutting, which leads to leading of the bore. A very hard lead alloy has to be sized to fit the bore very tightly. Softer alloys will obturate, expand under pressure, and fit themselves tightly to the bore.
There’s lots of factors to consider - base shape, alloy, lubricants, gas checks - but the thing is, copper solids and most copper jackets are too hard to obturate and don’t fit the bore as tightly - typically - as soft lead.
Terminal impact performance is a whole other subject and while relative, there’s just too much personal preference involved for an objective discussion. At least as far as I’ve observed.
Hope this helps.

This is a wealth of info for newbies that are about a "month-in" with this hobby. Thank you for taking the time to write it up and share.

The majority or the dirty and/or fouling bullets I've been shooting are hard cast and coated with HiTek. Perhaps they are undersized (for my pistols), and maybe the HiTek lube is causing more smoke, fouling, etc. than normal. All just a guess on my part.

I have the parts on hand that are needed to slug the J frames. Maybe it's time to monkey around with that. I don't think it would hurt anything. While collecting components, I ordered a couple of boxes of 148 WC. I'll double-check today to see if they are swaged. I think they might be. If so, I'll load some up and see how they do.

 

[TacticalJanitor]

I run silencers. So I use plated or jacketed bullets and single base powder when possible.
Plated, coated lead and jacketed are way cleaner and give you like 1/10th the lead exposure of firing cast lead bullets.

This is a good point too. I'm not a health nut, but it's been in the back of my mind (lead all over everything I touch, every day).

 

[Targa]

When I first started casting bullets I traditionally lubed them and yes, there was was a lot of smoke and dirty hands. This didn’t bother me, I kind of enjoyed it but I certainly wasn’t doing fellow shooters any favors at the indoor range so I would use copper plated bullets for the indoor stuff. Fast forward a few years, I took up powder coating and my cast bullets are no longer an issue at the indoor range. Long story short, traditionally lubed bullets are a bit “dirty”.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

The majority or the dirty and/or fouling bullets I've been shooting are hard cast and coated with HiTek.

I would say this is very unusual but you’re at least the third person I’ve seen reporting dirty/leading Hi-Tek bullets recently. I’m not in a position to do any research right now but if you look through recent posts you might find the others quickly. I think y’all might compare notes and see if there’s a connection.

 

[mdi]

Just my experience; I loaded and shot lead bullets exclusively for 15+ years and I still have some revolvers that haven't seen a jacketed or plated bullet since they've been in my possession. A properly fitted bullet with a decent lube leaves very little, if any, lead in the barrel. Good lubes don't smoke much. Some powders, especially when loaded light, smoke a lot and the smoke is often blamed on lubed cast bullet.. I have fired 150 or so rounds, in one session, of my cast 240gr. SWC with a home made lube through a Ruger SBH 44 Magnum, and my cast 158 gr SWC with my lube in a Taurus 4" 357 Magnum, and while I has some residue on my hands I just wiped them with a rag, and definitely not "greasy, black hands".

Casting your own bullets adds greatly to the fun and satisfaction of handloading, and usually adds to the knowledge of your guns. It often turns into a hobby in itself and can be as simple or as complicated/involved as the caster wants. From basic casting, sizing, lubing, to alloying and bullet design experiences are just a huge addition to our reloading hobby often making one a better firearm owner/shooter.

A few years ago I started PCing, which, for me, just takes the place of lube. I have purchased some Hi-Tek Coated 45 cal. 230 gr. RN, from Precision, and they shot cleanly through my 1911, Ruger P90 and mt High Point 45 ACP carbine. No fouling, but I've heard some complaints of home applied Hi-Tek.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Just my experience; I loaded and shot lead bullets exclusively for 15 years and I still have some revolvers that haven't seen a jacketed or plated bullet since they've been in my possession. A properly fitted bullet with a decent lube leaves very little, if any, lead in the barrel. Good lubes don't smoke much. Some powders, especially when loaded light, smoke a lot and the smoke is often blamed on lubed cast bullet.. I have fired 150 or so rounds, in one session, of my cast 240gr. SWC with a home made lube through a Ruger SBH 44 Magnum, and my cast 158 gr SWC with my lube in a Taurus 4" 357 Magnum, and while I has some residue on my hands I just wiped them with a rag, and definitely not "greasy, black hands".

Casting your own bullets adds greatly to the fun and satisfaction of handloading, and usually adds to the knowledge of your guns. It often turns into a hobby in itself and can be as simple or as complicated/involved as the caster wants. From basic casting, lubing, to alloying and bullet design experiences are just a huge addition to our reloading hobby often making one a better firearm owner/shooter.

A few years ago I started PCing, which, for me, just takes the place of lube. I have purchased some Hi-Tek Coated 45 cal. 230 gr. RN, from Precision, and they shot cleanly through my 1911, Ruger P90 and mt High Point 45 ACP carbine. No fouling, but I've heard some complaints of home applied Hi-Tek.

This mirrors my experience, too - however! It’s not about what we’ve done or experienced as much (IMO) as what these other shooters are seeing. It seems to me they’re all seeing Hi-Tek coated bullets not acting like they should and I think I may have been wrong to blame the gun in @barnfrog ‘s case, at least.

 

[barnfrog]

This mirrors my experience, too - however! It’s not about what we’ve done or experienced as much (IMO) as what these other shooters are seeing. It seems to me they’re all seeing Hi-Tek coated bullets not acting like they should and I think I may have been wrong to blame the gun in @barnfrog ‘s case, at least.

I think another thing to take into account is the experience of the OP. In my case, I am fairly new to reloading, even newer to centerfire handguns and newer still to using cast lead instead of jacketed. What I described as lead fouling probably was just that, but nobody with any significant experience or expertise had my gun in their hands to inspect and confirm what I thought I was seeing. It's a learning experience for me and I appreciate every bit of help folks have given me, but having these discussions on the internet without being able to hand my gun to someone and say "Take a look at this, will you?" has its limitations.

 

[denton]

Locally, we have a guy who has a machine in his garage that takes lead alloy in one end, and spits bullets out the other. I can buy very good cast bullets from him for $.05 each. Once I met him, I put my casting equipment away.

During one of the past bullet shortages, I converted as much of my shooting as I could to cast bullets, and was happy with the results.

With the right alloy, neither too hard nor too soft, reasonable velocities, the right lube, and with a good gun, you generally won't get much leading. But my daughter's 5 shot 38 Taurus has tool chatter marks on the forcing cone, and it leads like crazy.

A lot of the gunk you have to clean up with cast bullets comes from the lube.

Plated bullets leave less lead in the barrel. Sometimes you can get plated bullets from Xtreme and similar places for as little as $.07. That's what I mostly shoot in my handguns at the moment.

The downside of plated or powder coated bullets is that they are made of a soft material, lead. Push them too hard, and the twist of the rifling will strip them down to bore diameter, and accuracy will be poor. My Marlin lever 357 shoots cast bullets accurately as long as I keep MV below about 1250 FPS. Copper is harder and can handle more angular acceleration. So jacketed bullets are the ticket for real maximum velocity loads.

Light loads tend to produce more soot. And cast bullet loads tend to be on the lighter side.

Hope some of that helps. Have fun!

 

[Thomasss]

Long story short, traditionally lubed bullets are a bit “dirty”.

I wonder what I am doing right. 148-150 WC or 158 SWC that I cast or Speer HBWC. And I don't have any leading or smokey loads.
But to answer the original question: Jacketed bullets are more precise(accurate). Great for competition, but expensive, .25 each or more. Plated bullets are a little cheaper, but are limited to the mfr. recommended velocity. I cast most of my reloads. Although I do use liquid Alox, I prefer to size and use Alox 50/50 lube most bullets. Powder coat like from MBC are great, but cost 14 cents each at 2,000 per/purchase. I cast and lube for around 10 cents each. Problem is starting from scratch now and your cost is going to be closer to MBC pricing. I'm always watching for deals on lead, powder and equipment. I started off casting for muzzleloading and then traded up on quipment as my interests changed.
I have heard of WC with light loads, but at the same time I also heard to be careful of blowing the skirts off of HBWC. How can one blow the skirt off with a light load. I'm found out loading just at or just over 800fps everything improved substantially. I am using my cast Lee solid 148 WC or Lee's 158 LSWC , so a skirt won't be a problem and neither is leading.
Titegroup at 3.2 is a minimum load for 158 grain cast bullet. If it were me, I would slowly increase that load to 3.4 or 3.5. I would also check the seating depth which could also be a "smokey" issue. Cast bullets do allow for a lot more leeway in what a gun likes to shoot.

 

[TacticalJanitor]

I think another thing to take into account is the experience of the OP. In my case, I am fairly new to reloading, even newer to centerfire handguns and newer still to using cast lead instead of jacketed. What I described as lead fouling probably was just that, but nobody with any significant experience or expertise had my gun in their hands to inspect and confirm what I thought I was seeing. It's a learning experience for me and I appreciate every bit of help folks have given me, but having these discussions on the internet without being able to hand my gun to someone and say "Take a look at this, will you?" has its limitations.

That's a good point. I don't know that it was lead. It could have been residual lube. Whatever it was, it takes 15 minutes of scrubbing to get it out.

I picked up some ChoreBoy and it cut down cleaning time a bit. I did manage to get a picture of the fouling at one point. Let's see if it is clear enough for anyone to diagnose.









It has always been heavier near the forcing cone. Dirty! I don't get any fouling at all when shooting the plated boolits.

 

[TacticalJanitor]

Locally, we have a guy who has a machine in his garage that takes lead alloy in one end, and spits bullets out the other. I can buy very good cast bullets from him for $.05 each. Once I met him, I put my casting equipment away.

During one of the past bullet shortages, I converted as much of my shooting as I could to cast bullets, and was happy with the results.

With the right alloy, neither too hard nor too soft, reasonable velocities, the right lube, and with a good gun, you generally won't get much leading. But my daughter's 5 shot 38 Taurus has tool chatter marks on the forcing cone, and it leads like crazy.

A lot of the gunk you have to clean up with cast bullets comes from the lube.

Plated bullets leave less lead in the barrel. Sometimes you can get plated bullets from Xtreme and similar places for as little as $.07. That's what I mostly shoot in my handguns at the moment.

The downside of plated or powder coated bullets is that they are made of a soft material, lead. Push them too hard, and the twist of the rifling will strip them down to bore diameter, and accuracy will be poor. My Marlin lever 357 shoots cast bullets accurately as long as I keep MV below about 1250 FPS. Copper is harder and can handle more angular acceleration. So jacketed bullets are the ticket for real maximum velocity loads.

Light loads tend to produce more soot. And cast bullet loads tend to be on the lighter side.

Hope some of that helps. Have fun!

Thanks for the tip. $0.07 is 1/2 of what I'm paying. For that much savings, I might be willing to experiment with lubes and charge levels to get a clean-shooting system.

 

[AJC1]

Lube and low pressure is where your dirty guns come from. A coated bullet with a hot enough charge for proper combustion is what you seek. 3.8 grains of tg and a powdercoated 150 class bullet and your off and running. Ramshot competition seems clean as well to me. Vhit seems to make powders acceptable to the most demanding of clean freaks.

 

[TacticalJanitor]

Lube and low pressure is where your dirty guns come from. A coated bullet with a hot enough charge for proper combustion is what you seek. 3.8 grains of tg and a powdercoated 150 class bullet and your off and running. Ramshot competition seems clean as well to me. Vhit seems to make powders acceptable to the most demanding of clean freaks.

3.8 of TG is the max load for 158g/.38 Sp (according to what I've found). That sounds like it would be a bit snappy in a J frame.

By 150 class, do you mean 150g?

 

[AJC1]

3.8 of TG is the max load for 158g/.38 Sp (according to what I've found). That sounds like it would be a bit snappy in a J frame.

By 150 class, do you mean 150g?

That load is the load right off the bottle, and my son loved it when he was 10. Now he is shooting 357. I've not shot it in anything but my colt trooper or my 16.5 carbine and it was mild to the point of boring for me. The only load I can really compair it to is 3.4 grains of red dot, and they seemed the same.
150 class is a weight range I use for cast because nothing ever weighs what it's supposed to. A 150 swc weighs 153 and my 154 noe weighs 156.

 

[TacticalJanitor]

That load is the load right off the bottle, and my son loved it when he was 10. Now he is shooting 357. I've not shot it in anything but my colt trooper or my 16.5 carbine and it was mild to the point of boring for me. The only load I can really compair it to is 3.4 grains of red dot, and they seemed the same.
150 class is a weight range I use for cast because nothing ever weighs what it's supposed to. A 150 swc weighs 153 and my 154 noe weighs 156.

Ah, I see. I want to stick with 148 or 158 for my scandium J frames. Anything lighter that I've tried hits too low to be useful outside of 5 yards. I'm a big fan of POA=POI.

I've put several boxes of .38 Sp +P through them. It's manageable. Full-house .357 isn't tolerable for me. The recoil is much worse than my steel 5-shot .44 Mag snubbie when shooting 240g@1190. I'm not tough enough for that.

Ultimately, I'd like to find a load for 158g that equals some yet-to-be-determined .38+P defense load so I can train on the cheap with the same recoil impulse that the factory ammo has.

My next loads will be 3.4g of TG. I'll keep climbing up to 3.8 and see what happens. Thanks.

 

[AJC1]

Ah, I see. I want to stick with 148 or 158 for my scandium J frames. Anything lighter that I've tried hits too low to be useful outside of 5 yards. I'm a big fan of POA=POI.

I've put several boxes of .38 Sp +P through them. It's manageable. Full-house .357 isn't tolerable for me. The recoil is much worse than my steel 5-shot .44 Mag snubbie when shooting 240g@1190. I'm not tough enough for that.

Ultimately, I'd like to find a load for 158g that equals some yet-to-be-determined .38+P defense load so I can train on the cheap with the same recoil impulse that the factory ammo has.

My next loads will be 3.4g of TG. I'll keep climbing up to 3.8 and see what happens. Thanks.

I never saw bad accuracy with tg down to 2.8 grains. The load range was more like pick the bullet speed you want, unlike red dot that came together at 3.4 and then fell back apart going higher into +p.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Greasy. Black hands and scrubbing lead off of everything! Gotta clean them or your cylinders will stop spinning. So much work!

There's something wrong with that ammo if it was indeed HiTek coated. Can we see a picture of a round?

I've been shooting HiTek cast bullets for a few years in Action Pistol competition and I've never had the fouling I'm seeing in your pictures. With the amount of fouling you're getting around the muzzle, I'm tempted to think they are loading with Titegroup and it is melting the base of the bullets...Titegroup is known the burn very hot and melt some coatings. I'm also tempted to consider that your bullets were undersized and you were getting "blowby" from the burning powder.

How does everyone feel about lead vs coated vs plated?

My 160gr-170gr HiTek coated bullets, I shoot in competition, burn as clean in my revolvers as the plated bullets I load for practice. I hardly ever clean my barrel. I only run a dry patch through to get out unburned powder before a match.

I only shoot Xtreme plated bullets in my revolver because I got a huge discount on three buckets a while back before they went into Chapter 11. They are easier to load as I don't have to worry as much about them shaving.

If RMR makes a jacketed bullet in any caliber that I reload, it is my preference over plated or coated

 

[35 Whelen]

I've recently loaded and fired my first 250 rounds of .38 Special (thanks to the helpful people in this subforum). Everything went well. Before reloading I was shooting purchased 148g WC at 800 fps (not proven, that's just what was on the label). Lately, I've only been shooting J frames with a little bit of .44 mag.

Revolver are a 2023 thing for me. I grew up with them, but didn't really shoot any for 30 years. 2023 taught me that revolvers are dirty. Greasy. Black hands and scrubbing lead off of everything! Gotta clean them or your cylinders will stop spinning. So much work!

But maybe not. I used "plated" 158g RN for my first 250 loads, and I am AMAZED at how much cleaner the pistol is. No lead to scrub out of the barrel. No black hands after range time. No smoke when shooting. I might be done with lead boolits.

I'm getting the 158g RN for $0.15 locally. My understanding is that I could buy lead boolits (pretty much any type) for $0.11 if I want to be particularly frugal.

It is known that wadcutters are very accurate with light loads, but I'm a combat drill shooter. Probably couldn't shoot a tight group if I ever tried to. The difference in cost is negligible to me.

Why would a reloader choose to shoot lead? I'm not trying to stir things up...I really don't understand. I don't think that saving $0.04 per round is worth all the cleaning and mess that lead requires.

However, I have the feeling that I'm missing something here. To date, I've only been exposed to the WC described above and assorted LSWC and LRN that were available on local shelves. They were all filthy. Could just be bad luck. Maybe it's the powder that's causing the mess? My reloads are Titegroup (3.2g). Pretty light.

How does everyone feel about lead vs coated vs plated?

Interesting question.

I shoot revolvers more than anything and have I guess a couple dozen of them. I also cast and lube my own bullets. I couldn't begin to count the hundreds of pounds of bullets I've cast, lubed and fired from handguns as well as rifles. I've never, EVER had "black" lead on anything, nor have I ever found cast bullets to be "dirty". To be fair, some of the lube I've used left a little greasy residue on my revolvers, but it just wiped right off with the carbon.

If you prefer coated bullets, then that's what you should shoot, I'm just not sure what all the drama is with "dirty" lead bullets.

35W