Leading

[evan price]

Just wanted to point out that I have been shooting a Lee 150-gr SWC, cast from 10BHN range scrap, water quenched, and sized to .358" in my 38s and 357s, tumble lubed with White Label XLOX diluted with Mineral spirits.

Recently shot 500 of them in a S&W 66 and a S&W 28 with 5.0 grains of Titegroup, 357 range brass, Wolf SPP, with a good roll crimp.

Same bullet with 3.5 of Titegroup in 38 Special range brass with a good roll crimp and wolf SPP in a Colt Army Special, Colt Police Positive Mk V, and S&W Model 10. We went through about 500 of these too.

The "only" lead I found after shooting was a couple specks just past the forcing cone, the bore was clean and shiny. Not just one, but ALL the revolvers.

I am loading the same lead with a Lee 240-gr SWC tumble lube unsized, with 8.0 gr of Red Dot in 44 Magnum and it left the bore cleaner than it was before I started. NO leading.

Same lead, Lee 228-1R bullet, same lube, sized to .452, loaded over 4.7gr of Titegroup in 45 Auto. Shot 300 of them in my Sig 220 and other than black carbon there was nothing in the bore.

Lee 105-SWC bullet, same lead and lube, loaded in 9mm after sizing to .357" AND 4.8GR of Red Dot. Clean and no leading in all my 9mms.

Same lead and lube, Lee 93gr-1R bullet. Unsized. Loaded in 32 Long with 2.5 of Titegroup. No leading in various Colt and S&W revolvers.

What am I doing wrong that I am not getting leading where so many others do?

 

[243winxb]

10 BHN range scrap, thats been water quenched, is now very hard. But dropping from mold to water does not produce top accuracy in my testing on target, when compared to air cooled hard cast.

 

[TimSr]

It like looking at online reviews of products and services. Few people will go out of their way to make an effort to let the world know that everything went fine, but disatisfied people sure do like to make a lot of noise!

My own unsubtsantiated theory is that 90% of people using lead can buy it off the shelf, and use recipes from the book, and experence little or no issues. The other 10% hang out on forums and scare people into paying for jacketed ammo.

 

[stubbicatt]

In my experience, properly sized bullets, lubed with adequate lube, will shoot well at typical pistol velocities. I have also seen where hardness is not as important when it comes to leaving lead in the barrel, as these other two factors.

I have shot 30-1 bullets in a 20 inch 357 rifle barrel with no lead deposits at all, and accuracy seems just fine. But these bullets are sized over bore diameter, have a fat grease groove, with an Emmerts type home made lubricant.

I have not had the same results with commercially cast offerings, which come with some sort of hard wax in a small grease groove.

Same with commercially cast bullets in 45 ACP. My home made stuff just works well. I suspect, as others have mentioned, that the "hard cast" stuff with hard lube, is more important from a shipping standpoint than it is to a shooting stand point. The way commercial casters package their offerings in bulk in a box, of necessity requires a harder alloy and a high temperature lube, in order to survive shipping and arrive not all dented up, with the lube in a puddle on the bottom of the box.

 

[CraigC]

The other 10% hang out on forums and scare people into paying for jacketed ammo.

Bingo!

I had no idea when I started handloading that I needed to be afraid of cast bullets.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I'm with you evan.

I've bought bullets from Missouri Bullets for .45 Colt. I got the 18 BHN because I wanted to shoot some pretty hot loads, but they delivered excellent results with everything from powder puff Trail Boss loads to Ruger Only wrist breakers. Very minimal lead in the bore. For the most part, mirror shiny.

Then I started casting my own. Everything from straight clip on WWs to a 50/50 mix of clip on to pure lead has shot wonderfully with little to no leading.

Then I decided to start taking a bucket to the range and if I was by myself, mine the berms. I scraped together 15-20 pounds of lead out of that and it too worked just fine.

The only problem I've ever had was when trying to load lead for 9mm, but that's an entirely different animal and I did eventually figure it out. I am kind of jealous that I experienced issues with that one and you didn't.

 

[ljnowell]

I'm with you evan.



I've bought bullets from Missouri Bullets for .45 Colt. I got the 18 BHN because I wanted to shoot some pretty hot loads, but they delivered excellent results with everything from powder puff Trail Boss loads to Ruger Only wrist breakers. Very minimal lead in the bore. For the most part, mirror shiny.



Then I started casting my own. Everything from straight clip on WWs to a 50/50 mix of clip on to pure lead has shot wonderfully with little to no leading.



Then I decided to start taking a bucket to the range and if I was by myself, mine the berms. I scraped together 15-20 pounds of lead out of that and it too worked just fine.



The only problem I've ever had was when trying to load lead for 9mm, but that's an entirely different animal and I did eventually figure it out. I am kind of jealous that I experienced issues with that one and you didn't.

I've loaded the Missouri Cowboy #9 to levels that would make many people move two lanes away from me if they knew it. No leading at all.

 

[Sunray]

5.0 grains of Titegroup is a max load for a cast 158.
3.5 of Titegroup in 38 Special is a mid range load.
32 Long with 2.5 of Titegroup is over max for a 98 grain cast bullet. No 93 grain bullet given. Not excessively fast though. Which why you're not getting leading.
The Red Dot 240 cast is WAAAAY over max.

 

[evan price]

Sunray: the 32 mold is the lee 311-93-1R, mine drops 314.
The 8.0 red dot under the 240 swc for 44mag, I worked up from 5 grains up to 6.5 max, then found more accuracy and 1000 fps in a super redhawk.

 

[mdi]

Well, this is the second recent thread about shooting lead bullets and leading. Some folks can't shoot lead cleanly and others (me for one) can shoot hundreds of home cast bullets and get very little, marginal, leading. I've found bullet diameter is the single most important aspect of shooting lead bullets cleanly...

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I've loaded the Missouri Cowboy #9 to levels that would make many people move two lanes away from me if they knew it. No leading at all.

Yeah since I've been casting my own I've shot just straight wheel weights with nothing added with 26 grains of H110 and no leading to speak of. That's a big boy load, let me tell you!

I don't have a tester, but they can't be over 10-11 BHN.

 

[ReloaderFred]

Arkansas Paul,

All the straight wheelweight bullets I've cast and tested were right at 12 Bhn, which I consider about perfect for most of my handgun bullets. I don't bother water quenching my bullets, either.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Thank you sir. That does help.

They have certainly done the job splendidly for all of my needs.
I've even cut it 50/50 with pure lead for low velocity .38 Spcl stuff and never an issue.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

Most all of you including Even Price are shooting home cast bullets of one kind or another and have learned how to made them work for you.

Mouser69's complaint was with store bought bevel based bullets which Tim Sr. is the only that has responded to that.

I couldn't shoot store bought bevel based bullets either without "what I considered a lot of leading" compared to what I get now. But when I started casting my own my problems with lead bullets went away.

I don't think the comparisons here are apples to apples in referencing the mentioned past posts with store bought cast bullets.

Tim Sr is the only one so far that has spoken to the context of the former posts that Evan referenced. He seems to have achieved something I never could with my guns.

Just wanted to point out that I have been shooting a Lee 150-gr SWC, cast from 10BHN range scrap

Some folks can't shoot lead cleanly and others (me for one) can shoot hundreds of home cast

Yeah since I've been casting my own I've

All the straight wheelweight bullets I've cast and tested were right at 12 Bhn

But:

I have not had the same results with commercially cast offerings, which come with some sort of hard wax in a small grease groove.

Stubby cat, In speaking to Mouser69's rant, that statement truly references the past posts the Evan is speaking towards

Just wanted to point that out.

 

[Walkalong]

Where he, and the thread, got in trouble, was saying all cast bullets leaded, even if the rest of us didn't seem to be able to tell.

If it had been approached as a question, and a teaching opportunity for someone having trouble with leading, it would have gone much better.

IMHO of course.

rant

Those rarely go well.

 

[ReloaderFred]

I use the "hard wax" lubes, since I buy it directly from Magma. Almost all my handgun bullets use that lube, applied in either one of my Star machines or my Magma Size Master commercial machine. There are some bullets that I will use a softer lube on, which will be either 50-50 Alox or SPG, but the majority are done with Magma lube. I have some lube-sizers set aside for the softer lubes, but they rarely get used these days.

My wife and I shoot thousands of these bullets in matches each year, and to tell you the truth, I only clean the barrels about once a year, since I hate cleaning guns. I get negligible leading, and I'm talking about 8 revolvers and 4 rifles in .38/.357, but we're talking about mid-range loads, too. The other caliber firearms are the same, maybe just a smear of gray on the first patch or two. It wouldn't be accurate to claim there is no leading at all, just like it wouldn't be accurate to say there isn't any copper fouling from shooting jacketed bullets.

My .32 bullets are sized .313", .38 bullets are sized .358", .44 bullets are sized .430" (except for .44-40, which are sized either .427" or .428", depending on the firearm) .45 bullets are sized .452" and 9mm bullets are sized .3565". I size 10mm bullets to .401" and .41 bullets to .411", while .45-70 and .45-120 bullets are sized .459".

The hard lubes will work just fine for most shooting, as long as the diameter of the bullet is correct for the bore (and cylinder throats) they're going to be travelling through and the alloy isn't too hard. If a cast bullet can't obturate, it doesn't matter what kind of lube is being used, it's going to lead. I tend to use the softer alloys for most of my casting, and I went through over 2,000 pounds of alloy just this past year alone.

I didn't read the previous thread you mentioned, other than the original post, since I knew it was going to get contentious and I didn't care to become involved. All I can relate is my experience in shooting cast bullets for 52 years, and still doing it, a lot.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[kcofohio]

I think reloading is an experiment and learning experience. One has to learn what works and what doesn't.

But I almost swore off lead bullets. Until I realized that not all of the fouling was lead. And when leading occurred, it was either the wrong charge for the bullet, or the powder charge wasn't consistent. I'm sure leading will happen down the road, as I'm still learning.

I followed most of the prior thread. For those having troubles with lead, keep trying, and keep copper Chore Boy nearby.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

Where he, and the thread, got in trouble, was saying all cast bullets leaded, even if the rest of us didn't seem to be able to tell.

If it had been approached as a question, and a teaching opportunity for someone having trouble with leading, it would have gone much better.

IMHO of course.


Quote:
rant

Those rarely go well

I agree with every word.

 

[ljnowell]

Most all of you including Even Price are shooting home cast bullets of one kind or another and have learned how to made them work for you.



Mouser69's complaint was with store bought bevel based bullets which Tim Sr. is the only that has responded to that.



I couldn't shoot store bought bevel based bullets either without "what I considered a lot of leading" compared to what I get now. But when I started casting my own my problems with lead bullets went away.



I don't think the comparisons here are apples to apples in referencing the mentioned past posts with store bought cast bullets.



Tim Sr is the only one so far that has spoken to the context of the former posts that Evan referenced. He seems to have achieved something I never could with my guns.



















But:







Stubby cat, In speaking to Mouser69's rant, that statement truly references the past posts the Evan is speaking towards



Just wanted to point that out.

I do not cast anything. Nothing. I shoot lead bullets in everything I shoot and reload for. That's 380, 9mm, 40 S&W, 45 acp, 45 colt, 38/357, etc.

I shoot either Missouri Bullets(in everything) or zero swaged HBWC in 38 special. I do not have leading issues in any of the pistols with any of those bullets. None. At all.

Also, to point out, my bullseye guns will typically go several thousand rounds without a bore brush touching them.

 

[stubbicatt]

Most all of you including Even Price are shooting home cast bullets of one kind or another and have learned how to made them work for you.

Mouser69's complaint was with store bought bevel based bullets which Tim Sr. is the only that has responded to that.

I couldn't shoot store bought bevel based bullets either without "what I considered a lot of leading" compared to what I get now. But when I started casting my own my problems with lead bullets went away.

I don't think the comparisons here are apples to apples in referencing the mentioned past posts with store bought cast bullets.

Tim Sr is the only one so far that has spoken to the context of the former posts that Evan referenced. He seems to have achieved something I never could with my guns.









But:



Stubby cat, In speaking to Mouser69's rant, that statement truly references the past posts the Evan is speaking towards

Just wanted to point that out.

There's always that one guy who comes along, appoints himself the finder of flaws, but offers nothing himself...

 

[evan price]

I've recovered shot bullets of mine and when I water drop them it leaves a thin crust of harder lead exterior and the interior is softer. Its odd. But it works.

 

[mdi]

FWIW; and related to the OP, I have rarely, very rarely gotten leading free shooting with any commercial casters' bullets with one exception; Beartooth Bullets, which I was able to purchase with a diameter that fit my gun (.432" and .225")...

 

[41 Mag]

I think reloading is an experiment and learning experience. One has to learn what works and what doesn't.

But I almost swore off lead bullets. Until I realized that not all of the fouling was lead. And when leading occurred, it was either the wrong charge for the bullet, or the powder charge wasn't consistent. I'm sure leading will happen down the road, as I'm still learning.

I followed most of the prior thread. For those having troubles with lead, keep trying, and keep copper Chore Boy nearby.

I completely agree with this.



I have shot several brands of commercial cast bullets. Some with awesome results, and some with dismal results. Most times however, if not all, I can relate the failure to the load and not the bullets. I began to pour my own after about a year of solid reading and research in getting things right and proper. It might sound excessive, but my initial introduction to cast went horribly and the leading which I incurred took almost a full week of scraping and scrubbing to remove, and this was from only 5 rounds.

I can say this hasn't been the only time I have leaded up a barrel, but when I did it recently I knew what to expect going in but still had to test the alloy and load. The results after only 4 shots were this,

While not nearly as bad as the first time I loaded it up, at least it came out with only a quick cleaning. As mentioned the fit it the biggest thing in most cases with the lube coming in second. The hardness is relative but can be worked around by working on the pressures by using this or that powder. It is all a big balancing act to come to the end result.

I wanted loads which would equal the hunting loads I had using jacketed bullets. So I purchased molds which would pour HP cast. That is when the fun began for me. Now that I could pour them, I had to blend up the alloy so they would work properly. I tried plenty of recipes, but due to having limited supplies of pure lead and clip on wheel weights I had to go another route. My main alloy is roughly a 1/3/96. This is a perfect alloy for up to magnum velocity and loaded solid bullets like WFN and SWC type bullets. It however isn't so great if you want to get any sort of controlled expansion. That said however, if you add in a little pure tin, and a little pure lead to bring the tin and antimony to equal parts, you can get an alloy which is somewhat harder but still malleable and in which the HP bullets will expand without fracturing and blowing the noses off. The issue is however now you have a softer alloy in which you now have to adjust the pressure curve to fit or like in the picture above you end up with a leaded up bore. Even with this balancing of alloy to pressure however you still have issues if you try to drive a softer alloy to a higher velocity since your pressure will have to be higher to get there. More adjusting of the alloy and more testing of different powders.

End results are satisfying however in getting results like these in a 1300+fps full magnum load, from an alloy that runs around a 12 BHN,

Then pouring up a WFN design and getting similar results from it as well at full magnum velocities,

but still being able to get full expansion at standard loads as well,

 

[Dudedog]

When I started loading 9mm the first bullet I used were MBC 124 lubed lead cones. I hadn't read back then how hard it is to load lead and you should start with jacketed bullets. I never had any serious leading issues. Maybe a bit after 200 or 300 rounds but not bad.

I suppose it is possible that there are some guns that just don't like lead no matter what.

I am lucky none of mine are that way. (so far)