Lee Factory Crimp Question 9mm

[baddad06]

I started reloading pistol a little over a year ago. Thanks to all of you it has been a fantastic hobby and allows me to shoot more often.
I de-cap and size in a separate step but I do every thing else on my LnL AP. Based on input from the forum my last step is to crimp using the Lee Factory Crimp Die.

I do like crimping as a separate step but do I need to use the Lee Factory or will any single purpose crimp die work. The Lee is a pain to set on the progressive due to its short length.

If I already sized on the first step why do I need to resize using the Lee in the crimp step?

As always thanks for your input!

 

[newfalguy101]

The name Factory CRIMP dies, is a bit of a misnomer for most auto-pistol cartridges as most are NOT actually crimped, but, rather the entire case mouth is squeezed down to help ensure enough neck tension.

More to the point, NO, you do NOT *need* the FCD IF your seating/crimping die is set correctly.

The fist time you re-size, is squeezing down the case to the correct size, and as stated above, IF your seating die is correct, then you do NOT need to use the FCD

 

[Reloadron]

Personally I was never a fan of the Lee FCD. I experimented with it pretty extensively when it was first marketed and saw it more as a solution to a problem that didn't exist.

When loading handgun semi auto rounds like 45 ACP I have always just used a taper crimp and for revolver like 44 Mag, 45 Colt and 357 Magnum I use a a good roll crimp.

You may want to give this a read.

Just my take....
Ron

 

[PO2Hammer]

the entire case mouth is squeezed down to help ensure enough neck tension

Squeezing the case mouth after bullet seating doesn't increase neck tension, it can only reduce it. Brass springs back after squeezing, bullets don't.

The Lee is designed to crush everything down after seating so that it will chamber. Kind of like training wheels on a bike.

I like a plain taper crimp die.

 

[jcwit]

Are you "the OP" referring to jacketed or cast lead bullets?

For cast lead bullets I have found that slightly oversize bullets .358, seated and "crimped?" as in taking the flare out by using a 38 spec die works best for me and I have virtually eliminated leading. By using the 38 spec die I have no worries of post sizing the lead bullet.

 

[LiveLife]

+1. This applies only to semi-auto caliber FCD as FCD for revolver is a completely different animal - www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=469815

FCD is a taper crimp die with a carbide sizer ring at the mouth of the die.

When using .355" diameter jacketed/plated bullets, use of FCD is not necessary after full-length resizing the case, seating and taper crimping the bullet with regular set of dies.

Of course, bullets can be out-of-spec and/or out of round (reason why many plated bullet manufacturers "double strike" after plating to ensure roundness within specs). The carbide sizer ring of the FCD will "fix" the outer dimensions of finished rounds so they will reliably fully chamber in SAAMI max spec barrels whether factory or aftermarket which was the primary purpose of the FCD.

But if you are using larger than .356" diameter bullets, especially .357"+ lead bullets, the carbide sizer ring can post-size the bullet diameter and depending on the condition of the brass, neck tension can decrease as resized lead bullet will remain while work hardened brass will spring back away from the bullet. You will notice this post-sizing by the resistance you feel when using the FCD die.

So if you are using .355" diameter bullets, feel free to use the FCD as "finishing die" to taper crimp and fix out-of-spec/round bullets but if you are using .356" and larger diameter bullets that are post-sized, I would not use the FCD (some knock out the carbide ring and use the FCD just as a taper crimp die to seat and crimp in separate steps).

 

[mdi]

Squeezing the case mouth after bullet seating doesn't increase neck tension, it can only reduce it. Brass springs back after squeezing, bullets don't.

The Lee is designed to crush everything down after seating so that it will chamber. Kind of like training wheels on a bike.

I like a plain taper crimp die.

I agree! I recommend a new reloader learn how to adjust the dies correctly, then there is no need to "cover up" a mistake...

 

[baddad06]

Thanks for the sound advice.

 

[LiveLife]

Yes, reloaders have been making quality reloads without FCD for decades.

But the bullets can be out-of-spec/round and case walls are now thicker with inconsistent thickness that vary from .010" to .013"+. So an out-of-round bullet with the thicker case wall can "stack" the tolerances to be an oval instead of a circle and prevent full chambering, even in a factory barrel.

With my Sig 1911 barrel, even lead bullets sized .452" will fully chamber using .471"-.472" taper crimp (SAAMI max chamber at case mouth is .474"). But out-of-round .451" diameter bullets will not fully chamber, especially with inconsistent case wall thickness brass. So the FCD comes to the rescue to fix these out-of-spec finished rounds. Lousy case walls! Do we need to start turning case neck of pistol cases too! :banghead:

With my Lone Wolf 40S&W barrel, even lead bullets sized .401" will fully chamber using .421"-.422" taper crimp (SAAMI max chamber at case mouth is .424") but not a hair more. Even with "round" .401" sized lead bullet measured several times around the bullet, if the case walls are not consistently even in thickness, it won't fully chamber.

So, measure your case wall thickness and don't be surprised if they vary. If you have tighter chamber factory/aftermarket barrel, get yourself a FCD as cheap $10 insurance or you will be saying some choice four letter words at the range when your pistol locks up tight and can't fire the partially chambered round with slide not in full battery nor be able to loosen the slide to extract the jammed up round (ask me how I know ).

 

[rcmodel]

Try to adjust your seat & crimp die to give you a finished case mouth measurement of:

9mm = .376".
.40 S&W = .421".
.45 ACP = .471".

That will match most factory taper-crimp I have measured.

rc

 

[Blue68f100]

I'm not a fan of the LFCD and do not own any. It's best to learn how to setup your dies so your not use another die to fix what is not set right.

For the 9mm all you need is the std TC die. All your doing is removing the flare used to help insert the bullet. I run the TC die in station 5 on my LNL-AP.

 

[Otto]

I started reloading pistol a little over a year ago....
do I need to use the Lee Factory Crimp Die?

Nope, next question.....

 

[LiveLife]

Some reloaders like loose chambers ... but that's for another thread discussion.

Yes, FCD is not needed if you are using round bullets and case walls that are within specs in looser chambers.

Try to adjust your seat & crimp die to give you a finished case mouth measurement of:

9mm = .376".
.40 S&W = .421".
.45 ACP = .471".

That will match most factory taper-crimp I have measured.

rcmodel gave you good advise as always. Sometimes I will use slightly less taper crimp to reduce gas leakage at the case mouth and to squeeze out a bit more accuracy but that's me. For general purpose "works in any pistol", what rcmodel recommended will work well.

 

[Walkalong]

do I need to use the Lee Factory or will any single purpose crimp die work.

Any crimp only die or seater with a taper crimp built in with the seater stem taken out will work.


Lee

RCBS

Redding

Hornady - On Sale

Lyman

 

[ArchAngelCD]

If I already sized on the first step why do I need to resize using the Lee in the crimp step?

I think you are a little confused on that point. The LFCD isn't a sizing die, the paperwork says it post-sizes. What they mean is, if something is out of spec after you do all the steps the FCD will fix it before you try to shoot the ammo.

You may or may not think that's a good thing and many reloaders especially don't like the post-sizing feature with lead bullets in a revolver.

I'm really not a fan of the Lee FCD for revolver ammo either but I do like it for rifle ammo meant for a levergun. Of course the handgun and rifle FCD's are completely different from each other.

 

[gonoles_1980]

I found I've made less mistakes with the crimping using the FCD. I just use the one die for seat depth and again with the FCD to finish it up. Only takes me a little longer than it would to get the seating and crimp die to crimp it correctly. I know a lot of folks don't like it, but I find it useful.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I found I've made less mistakes with the crimping using the FCD. I just use the one die for seat depth and again with the FCD to finish it up. Only takes me a little longer than it would to get the seating and crimp die to crimp it correctly. I know a lot of folks don't like it, but I find it useful.

I don't dislike all the FCD's, only for revolver. I do like them for semi-autos and for revolvers I use a separate crimp die. Since I load handgun ammo in a Lee 4 hole Turret Press it's an easy setup for me...

 

[grogetr]

I use a 4 hole LCT press if you don't use the LFC die do you leave the spot empty in the turret and short stroke it past that station to skip it

 

[mdm]

All your doing is removing the flare used to help insert the bullet.

This is the bottom line. All you need to do is remove the flare you previously put in the case mouth and you just need to remove enough of the flare to ensure proper chambering of the round.

 

[Potatohead]

I used to use the FCD, but after the fellas here (reloadron and others) taught me how to use the seater die I dont even know where my FCDs are. I think the seater makes a cleaner crimp than the FCD but it might be all in my mind.

 

[greyling22]

the thing that is confusing me is why on earth is the OP decapping and sizing as a separate step off press? I mean, I get it with a rifle case if you are trimming, but with a 9? I don't get it, what am I missing.

But as far as FCD, it's nice for jacketed (but not required) and counter productive for lead.

 

[LiveLife]

why on earth is the OP decapping and sizing as a separate step off press?

There are some reloaders like me and Walkalong who prefer to resize and deprime separately so we can inspect/clean primer pockets and/or hand prime cases. I did that for my match reloads as part of my OCD match load steps but I only resized/hand primed for match practice loads. Now, I no longer clean pistol primer pockets (even if I were to start match shooting again), just rifle primer pockets. For general purpose range use/plinking rounds, I resize/prime on the press.

I have found that using resized brass in progressive presses will reduce the shell plate tilt/deflection and provide more consistent bullet seating depth/OAL. If you use mixed range brass with sometimes overly expanded cases, using resized brass makes progressive reloading effortless as you are simply flaring the case mouth and seating/crimping. I have not been using resized cases for my recent load development/accuracy testing so I may do another comparison thread to see how much difference can be measured in OAL and shot group size (if at all).

Additionally, using resized/primed cases allows you to seat and crimp in separate steps for the 3-station Pro 1000 or use additional powder check die in 4-station Dillon 550 by doing flare/powder charge in station #1, powder check die in station #2, seat bullet in #3 and crimp in #4 (if you seat/crimp in station #4, you can use powder check die in station #3 without using resized/primed cases).

 

[greyling22]

well, that makes a certain amount of sense I suppose. Particularly the progressive press effort point. I started using case lube on my 9's because they took so much effort to resize on a progressive. But with an LNL he's got plenty of die holes, and I'm not sold on the potential accuracy claims, especially in handgun. Certainly not at the level I shoot at.

If the OP wants to do so that's fine, but it just seems like a whole lot of extra work for, at best, marginal improvement. There was a 2nd post here that was asking the same question, and I was mostly just wondering if I had been missing something all these years. But enough of that, sorry to hijack the thread. Back to the FCD!

 

[moxie]

Haven't had a problem with out of round bullets, so post-sizing is a non-issue for me. I try to buy round ones whenever I can.

Basically the FCD = anchor for a very small boat. But you can take out the post sizing ring and it then becomes a decent taper crimp die.

And, for 9mm, de-capping and sizing in separate steps is a waste of time, IMO.

Reloading for the 9mm is oh so simple. OCD not required. Just make sure that the case mouth OD is as RC says in post #10 and the rest sort of takes care of itself.

 

[vaalpens]

Try to adjust your seat & crimp die to give you a finished case mouth measurement of:

9mm = .376".
.40 S&W = .421".
.45 ACP = .471".

That will match most factory taper-crimp I have measured.

rc

Thanks for the information, but can you explain how you calculated the measurement or is it based on calculation and lots of experience.

The reason why I am asking is that you get a different number when subtracting the bullet diameter from the suggested measurement. I am not questioning the suggested measurement, just trying to understand the calculation:

9mm = .376". (.376 - .355 = .021)
.40 S&W = .421". (.421 - .400 = .021)
.45 ACP = .471". (.471 - .452 = .019)

Is the wall thickness for 45acp cartridge less than 9mm and 40 S&W?