Legality of stopping a 'perceived' dog attack

[Cosmoline]

However, we never crossed the line into believing that they had more worth than a human being. They are pets. To feel justified in killing another human being because he felt threatened by your dog, whether or your property or not, is just plain insane.

If he was in the wrong, sue him and make him replace your dog with another one, but I'll be damned if I am going to acquit a homeowner for wrongful death if I am on a jury and a case like Cosmoline's comes up...

A man is chasing my dogs around on my land with a blade? What do you want me to do with him? Come up and discuss the matter with a CRIMINAL who is trying to kill a dog that's trying to protect me? No, I'm going to blow his criminal rear end away.

Now if MY dog is on HIS land chasing HIM or his family? Of course he can kill it. I'll help him. It's not about the dog. It's about a madman slashing at my dog on my land. There's no way on Earth that can be considered self defense. And the question on my mind is what is this bloody loon going to attack next? I have to assume it's ME. Why else put himself at risk by coming onto my land with a deadly weapon and use it on my guard dog?

 

[Travis Lee]

My neighbor spent a fortune to install an "invisible fence".

The dog kept escaping and he eventually cranked it up to maximum zap.

It made no difference the dog kept running off on adventures.

I would never trust my life against a vicious dog, and an "invisible fence".

--Travis--

 

[tetchaje1]

Go ahead and shoot see how long you spend a free man. Maybe while you are at it the kids should be shot to incase they are coming for you next too

LOL! I hadn't thought of that one. "Your honor, members of the jury, I had no choice but to take down the little girl after I plugged 'er daddy 'cause the only logical explanation is that she was COMING AFTER ME NEXT!!!"

Maybe things work out a bit differently up in Alaska...
...

How about this: "I kilt that summabitch to teach 'is little girl a thing or two 'bout my property rights."

 

[Omni04]

you mentioned 2 large dogs, any idea what kind of breed/mix they were? Also that is really good you learned how quick you could deploy your weapon. How bad do you think it would of been if there wasn't a fence? Also (sorry if you mentioned it already) how long did it take for them to make it to the edge of their yard? I wouldn't imagine more then 3-5 seconds unless it was a big yard.

 

[tetchaje1]

A man is chasing my dogs around on my land with a blade? What do you want me to do with him? Come up and discuss the matter with a CRIMINAL who is trying to kill a dog that's trying to protect me? No, I'm going to blow his criminal rear end away.

Now if MY dog is on HIS land chasing HIM or his family? Of course he can kill it. I'll help him. It's not about the dog. It's about a madman slashing at my dog on my land. There's no way on Earth that can be considered self defense. And the question on my mind is what is this bloody loon going to attack next? I have to assume it's ME. Why else put himself at risk by coming onto my land with a deadly weapon and use it on my guard dog?

I'm sorry, Cosmoline, perhaps I am being disrespectful and for that I apologize, but you and I just don't see eye to eye on this one. If your dog is growling and chasing around some guy and his little girl on your property you'd feel justified in killing him because he is a "criminal"?

Maybe he's just some guy out on a walk with his kid who felt threatened by your dog. You think? Oh wait, that doesn't happen in America anymore. He's a spy...that's it...a spy for Al Qaida (sp?)...and his daughter...she must be a closet suicide bomber with that skeery teddy bear of hers.

Maybe you can do the logical thing and call off your dogs first to see what the heck is going on. I don't know about you, but I'm not a perfect person. Maybe, just maybe, it's my fault and I should be apologizing profusely for my dogs attacking him and his little girl.

Hell no!!! I'm comin' out a-guns a-blazin'!!!

 

[Cosmoline]

Yes, things are different up here. A lot of folks don't put up no trespassing signs, they just post a target with their group on it

Let's set all the legal issues aside for a moment--it's crazy to try to defend against a genuine dog attack with a blade at least when dealing with a guard dog breed. The dogs I've worked with don't even feel cuts when their blood is up. If anything it makes them madder. The males in particular have so much hair and protective tissue around their necks it's nearly impossible to make any headway with anything less than an axe or a sword. You'd be better off with a long stick to keep them at bay. Going in on the offensive with a knife is just macho idiocy. Yes, most dogs will proabably run away but in that case there was no real danger anyway. If you're dealing with real guard dogs you're going to regret it very quickly. The best defense is to back slowly away while yelling at them and if you have no firearm using a heavy walking stick to stun them if they persist.

 

[Cosmoline]

and his little girl on your property you'd feel justified in killing him because he is a "criminal"?

No, not if there's a little girl there. But I'd wonder why the devil he's bringing an innocent little girl onto private property protected by guard dogs. I'd secure him at gunpoint and call the cops. He probably has no business with kids.

 

[Travis Lee]

If your dog chews up somebody inside your house, I'm with you. If your dog mauls a child on your property, two feet from the sidewalk, I'll give her daddy your house, if I'm on the jury.

You defend your property appropriately, and that means putting up a REAL fence, to keep your dog from presenting an imminent danger to people on the sidewalk.


--Travis--

 

[Lupinus]

So in order to "protect your kids" you would trespass and attack dogs with a knife because they scare you

No I wouldn't care about a property line in order to protect my kid from growling snarling dog that looks like its about to tear my daughters face off. Yes, if a dog looks like its about to jump on my kid and tear her face off I might be a tad on the scared side. I'd also be a tad on the scared side if I walked into my living room in the middle of the night to some burgler leveling a gun on me. Maybe I shouldn't protect myself and my kids either cause I am scared? What in the hell does it have to do with the dog scaring me? It has to do with the dog looking like its about to tear my kids face off. You have a dog like that it deserves whats coming to it.

It's not just illegal, it's nutty from a tactical point of view.

It's illegal now to stab a dog about to rip my kids face off? Its nutty to put yourself between your kids and a dangerous animal to protect them? Guess I didn't get that memo

the dogs are really serious about an attack, you're going to get mauled and a blade won't do diddly.

No? How many dog fights you been in or seen a dog attack someone? Bit? Sure. But that dog is going down and damn sure not mauling my kids.

If they're not serious they'll run off and you'll be chasing dogs around with a blade on another man's lawn. Think about it for a second.

If they arn't serious and they run off when I go on the defensive thats fine and well. I will go on my merry way back home and call animal control to report your dangerous animals that just charged at my kids and myself snarling like they were about to attack. Who said anything about chasing them all over the property?

A man is chasing my dogs around on my land with a blade? What do you want me to do with him? Come up and discuss the matter with a CRIMINAL who is trying to kill a dog that's trying to protect me? No, I'm going to blow his criminal rear end away.

How bout you just not have mangey mutts that like to charge kids? If dogs are charging me your damn right I am going between them and my kid with a knife of better yet a gun. I never said chase them I said put myself between them and my kids and I don't give a rats behind if that invloves taking a step or two onto your property. Maybe you should ask WHY someone had to pull a knife and shield their kids from your mutts.

Now if MY dog is on HIS land chasing HIM or his family? Of course he can kill it. I'll help him. It's not about the dog. It's about a madman slashing at my dog on my land

No its about using a public side walk and being charged by dangerous animals. Sorry when my and my kids lives re in danger I could care less about a property line.

There's no way on Earth that can be considered self defense

So if Im walking down a sidewalk boarding your property Im fair game if im charged and defending myself requires a step or two onto your property? Remember your mangey mutts are charging me not the other way around.

And the question on my mind is what is this bloody loon going to attack next? I have to assume it's ME. Why else put himself at risk by coming onto my land with a deadly weapon and use it on my guard dog?

Uh maybe your dangerous animals the fact there are two kids with me and a sidewalk might give you a clue? Better yet maybe just god given common sense might give you a clue that maybe, just maybe your dogs attacked me and Im the one defending myself and my kids? If you got a gun and im two feet on your propety your protected just fine till you can process it through your brain. You can do that right?

And guard dog? So now it is a guard dog. That means you know it is a protective potentialy dangerous animal that just might perceave a threat when there is none. Part of self defense involves common sense.

Travis-
That isn't a first a lot of people with large dogs have no luck at all with those things. I have seen plenty run right through them and keep going.

 

[Lupinus]

Yes, things are different up here. A lot of folks don't put up no trespassing signs, they just post a target with their group on it

Yeah and they also TRAIN THIER ANIMALS. You animal is attacking me I can defend myself. YOU are attacking me I can defend myself and my children. Doesn't matter. How about the fact I was on a public sidealk when the attack began? How about the fact you have to use a thing called reasonable force?

Let's set all the legal issues aside for a moment--it's crazy to try to defend against a genuine dog attack with a blade at least when dealing with a guard dog breed.

So I should run and be chased down and mauled? Or maybe I should forget the knife and just use my hands? Give me a knife and send a guard dog at me see how long he lasts. He will get a few bites in but he damn sure wont be the dead one.

ou'd be better off with a long stick to keep them at bay. Going in on the offensive with a knife is just macho idiocy

Who went on the offensive? Me or your mutts? I was walking on a public sidewalk.

If you're dealing with real guard dogs you're going to regret it very quickly.

How bout this one? If they are real guard dogs what the hell are they doing out alone in your yard without the person to give them commands? And on top of that you jsut shot a father protecting his kids. See hwo well that goes over.

The best defense is to back slowly away while yelling at them and if you have no firearm using a heavy walking stick to stun them if they persist.

Walking away keeps an animal from begining an attack if it has noticed you and is thinking about it. Once it has begun the attack walking backwards does nothing but make you easier to catch. And yes, charging is the begining of the attack. Go find a mountian lion or any preditor and see if backign up slowly once its already began its charge helps you

But I'd wonder why the devil he's bringing an innocent little girl onto private property protected by guard dogs.

WHEN DID HE ENTER PRIVATE PROPERTY WITH HIS GIRLS?!? He is walking on a friggin sidewalk!

I'd secure him at gunpoint and call the cops.

Go ahead this way they can shoot the dogs for me. YOU have no buisness with dogs.

And Travis- On that I agree (reguarding in the house and sidewalk differences) with one thing added. So long as I was invited in your house and didn't provoke the dog. Aside from that addition agree completly.

 

[Cosmoline]

No? How many dog fights you been in or seen a dog attack someone? Bit? Sure. But that dog is going down and damn sure not mauling my kids.

I've not only seen many dog fights between guard dogs, I've had to break them up! I've been attacked many times--thankfully while wearing protective gear. But if I hadn't I guarantee even my best hunting knife would have given little protection. Males in particular have all that protection up front because they're designed to be able to chew on each other in fights. If you're really dealling with an out-of-control guard dog trying to stab it with your folder is unlikely to do anything to stop it.

The dog I have now once came back from the woods with a piece of jagged steel sticking through the side of his face from where he ran into something. And he wanted to play fetch! There was no reaction at all from this massive injury. I would not put any money down on the ability of a man with a small knife to be able to stop the attack. The first thing a trained dog would do would be to destroy your hand. You'd be better off with dog nail clippers, becuase I have seen guard dogs who are terrified of them

From a tactical point of view, a knife is the last thing you want to use against a guard dog. If you're really worried about dogs attacking your kids either get a PROPER FIREARM and PACK IT or just stop taking them for walks in that neighborhood. That way the whole issue becomes moot and you won't have to chase dogs around with a knife like an idiot.

Also, backing up slowly won't trigger a prey response. Running away is what you want to avoid, as some dogs will sucker bite on the legs.

WHEN DID HE ENTER PRIVATE PROPERTY WITH HIS GIRLS?!? He is walking on a friggin sidewalk!

If he's on the sidewalk, there's no problem. What I was talking about was the notion that he should trespass onto the yard and attack the dogs himself with the knife preemptively. Maybe we're talking about two different things.

 

[tetchaje1]

Private property or not, though, I can understand a man attacking a dog with whatever he has on hand, even his bare hands if necessary, to protect his child. I know that I would do the same. Is it "tactical". No. Is it "the proper tool for the job". No. Is it being a loving parent? You bet.

I knew a girl who was mauled by a dog when she was a little girl. She still had HUGE scars on her face to prove it 20 years later. I'm sure that her daddy yearned to have been there to fight that dog off however he could have to have prevented that kind of disfigurement and pain that his daughter suffered.

I WILL get in between a dog that is charging my daughter regardless of where I may end up standing to do so, and I will fend off an attack to protect her even if it means losing my life. It is what a concerned loving and protective parent does for their child. I just hope I don't get plugged by some ornery homeowner because I might be a foot onto their property while my daughter is a foot behind me on public land...

I think that maybe I should step out of this thread since I don't want it to drift too much from the original intent, and since I don't want to get into a heated discussion with Cosmoline over this issue. He and I just don't see eye to eye, and I would hope that my 16 month old doesn't wander too close to the claymores on his property line...

 

[Lupinus]

Cos-
A knife will do just fine if you know where to stick it. You don't know where to stick it to kil lan attacking dog thats your buisness. We arn't talking slashing we are talking sticking where it could.

If you're really worried about dogs attacking your kids either get a PROPER FIREARM and PACK IT or just stop taking them for walks in that neighborhood.

And for people that isn't an option for? Oh right maybe I should hide in my house

Also, backing up slowly won't trigger a prey response. Running away is what you want to avoid, as some dogs will sucker bite on the legs.

If the dog is already charging it has begun its attack it doesn't matter how you walk run or otherwise. It will stop an attack from begining (maybe) once an animal is charging it has you pinned for a target no matter how you walk.

If he's on the sidewalk, there's no problem

Good then your mangey mutts shouldnt charge me and my kids. They do they initiated the attack not me and if you think im respecting your property line instead of keeping my kids from being mauled you are out of your mind.

 

[Cosmoline]

It's why they won't allow me in civilization anymore. Well that and some other issues

I think we're talking about two different things here, and maybe I misunderstood the scenario. Obviously a man can try to protect his daughters from a dog. All I'm saying is that trying to launch some bizarre counter attack with a folding kinfe by charging onto private property is ill advised and illegal. If afterwards the cops find all the blood, you and the dogs on private property and learn there's an invisible fence you're going to need a lawyer. If you're talking about the sidewalk or area RIGHT NEXT to the sidewalk where a dog has gone over the line and tried to attack you, of course you're justified. Though how a parent could expect to protect themselves let alone their kid in this world with no iron is beyond me.

If you're not able to carry a firearm, then bring a heavy Irish walking stick/club. I'm telling you unless you're a ninth level ninja master with the wall climbing boots you will GET YOUR HIND END KICKED in a fight against a real guard dog if you have only a small knife. You either don't have a clue what a real guard dog can do or we're talking about very different breeds of animals. "Knowing where to stab" isn't the issue. Your hand will never get there, at least not in one piece. The game will be over as soon as you stretch out your arm to attack. Put on a bite suit sometime and go through the paces with one of these beasts. It's a real eye-opener.

 

[Lupinus]

It's why they won't allow me in civilization anymore. Well that and some other issues

Really? Aparently the goverment can make good decisions on occasion.

All I'm saying is that trying to launch some bizarre counter attack with a folding kinfe by charging onto private property is ill advised and illegal

No one mentioned chasing your dogs like a mad man. What was mentioned was not giving a rats behind about propertly lines to protect your kids from a violent animal. If you have guard dogs and only an invisible fence no offence but you're an idiot.

If you're talking about the sidewalk or area RIGHT NEXT to the sidewalk where a dog has gone over the line and tried to attack you, of course you're justified.

When has something else been mentioned? I said a few steps not half the yard.

If afterwards the cops find all the blood, you and the dogs on private property and learn there's an invisible fence you're going to need a lawyer

And if you have guard dogs no real fence and they are outside alone you are gonna need a much better lawyer to keep your house from being my house.

 

[Cosmoline]

Maybe we're at cross purposes. I don't think Atticus did anything wrong. He was talking about using a knife IF the dog hadn't been stopped by the fence. Later on the comments seemed to suggest going onto the property with the knife to attack the dog preemptively. That's what I have a problem with.

As with many other issues the solution is clear--GET A FIREARM. A handgun would resolve the matter legally and tactically.

 

[Lupinus]

Im not a father yet

And I think the fumes from whatever your dogs have been dumping have been clouding your higher brain functions.

 

[Janitor]

Ok. I hate getting into it on dog threads because of the rampant ignorance that so often rolls through them. But there's an important point that seems to be getting missed by most in all the excitement.

My neighbor spent a fortune to install an "invisible fence".

The dog kept escaping and he eventually cranked it up to maximum zap.

It made no difference the dog kept running off on adventures.

I would never trust my life against a vicious dog, and an "invisible fence".

This is not a fine point. If it's a big strong dog, this is a potentially dangerous situation. A big/strong (Rot, Shepard, Chessie, Lab, Mastif, ...) that is motivated will not be stopped by an Invisible fence.

Not if they're as motivated as they would be in an attack they wouldn't. For a distance of something like 4'-5', they start to feel a tingle and with some collars, an audible. At about 2' the shock increases or pulses get closer together and the audible changes. At ground zero, all hell breaks loose for them.

But only for a moment. Think about it. A 125lb Rot running full steam for 100' before it gets to a tingle is only going to be there for a moment. If that dog is attacking somebody for any reason, I HIGHLY doubt the invisible fence will even slow the approach. He's coming out there.

And once they've gotten through the first time, fence is pretty much useless. At least it is when you can no longer turn it up. They, even Chessies ( ) learn how this stuff works pretty quickly. They know they need to stop when they hear the beep and feel the tingle. At least - they know it when they're not really pissed off.

Atticus - think about that next time you plan a walk with the kids.

Sorry about the interuption. As you were.

-

 

[SMMAssociates]

Twelve or thirteen years ago I attended a family gathering at a cousin's house - I'd never been there before.

As we have a large family, I ended up parking about three houses away from his drive.

While walking to his house, I noticed a rather large dog heading straight for me. He wasn't precisely threatening, but he was BIG enough to start thinking about this whole issue. My hand went to my PPK/S about the time I saw the "Invisible Fence" sign....

Point being that those fences don't always work. The kid across the street had to fence in his back yard because the invisible one in the front yard didn't do his dog any good at all. Not that the dog across the street was a danger, but I'm sure he wasn't the first who simply couldn't be trained to respond to one. Meantime, even a trained dog is going to break training once in a while if the conditions are right.

So, if I see the sign, and/or the dog, I get ready.... The property/dog owners have the responsibility to place the signs where they can be seen, and the fence some distance (say the magic 21'?) before the edge of the property.

Sometimes it's all common sense. The wife and I were leaving our house for some reason or other when a very large dog loped over from the neighbors property, growling and looking rather menacing. My wife grabbed my hand with "look out!" as I tried to grab my 1911.... Idiot.... Fortunately, the dog merely had a funny way of expressing interest - his owners were visiting the neighbors and called him off before I could toss my wife to the dog....

My vicious attack terrier (170# dog in a 17# body) would probably dig an invisible hole under the invisible fence. We don't try stuff like that. My daughter gave him to us. I wrote her out of my will. The dog won't leave....

(Children who give their parents Jack Russells should be charged with felonies....)

Regards,

 

[Atticus]

Hey Cosmo where's Wanda? (You probably have to have a kid to understand that one lol...but just kidding anyway)

A knife wouild not have been my first, or third choice for defense...but it is what I had. These dogs were not trained Shepards or such...they were mixed breed akita/husky/malimute types...mostly fur. FYI - My neighborhood is a very densely populated, 100% residential, suburban, upper middle class place. The yards are approximately a quarter acre in size. Sidewalks are throughout the neighborhood. I'd bet that 50 or more people would walk by this house on a nice night. That is why I wasn't really concerned with safety issues - but I was wrong. The last thing I desire is to shoot that fool's dogs. I was merely wondering about "what if's".

 

[jpIII]

Orignal Question:

Afterward, I really began to wonder what I would have done if I had been armed with a pistol. I was convinced they were going to attack; I would have drawn if I had been carrying; and I would have likely fired when they got as close as they did. Would I have been justified in your opinon?

Cosmoline's opinion:

WRONG ANSWER! Think about it for a second. There was an invisible fence. If you had killed them it would have placed you on private property. You would have been killing a proper owner's dogs on his property. He'd have been in his rights to shoot you dead on the spot. I would have done it in a heartbeat. If some yahoo is slashing at my dogs on my property and the dogs are inside their invisible fence, it means the yahoo has ignored the property line and decided to come towards my house and start attacking my dogs. There's only one rational conclusion--he's coming after ME next. Otherwise he could have simply walked away.

I respectfully disagree with Cosmoline. From the facts presented, I think you would have been justified. You are on a public way area, the sidewalk. You have every right to be there. It is not private property. Don't forget, the question is could he have used the gun had he been armed, NOT can he go slashing them?

If the sidewalk is directly connected to private property with no obstacles in between, then there is nothing that would allow a reasonable person to infer that charging dogs would not continue their charge. Assuming you could not see their electronic collars, or other tell-tale signs, then you have no way of knowing you are NOT in immediate and life threatening danger.

I'm not saying that you could shoot when they are still on the porch, but if they are within feet and nearing contact distance, then it would be justified. If you are in a state that has a duty to retreat, your non-retreat is easily explained by your inability to safely retreat with your daughters while being chased by aggressive dogs.

The homeowner likely could not take legal force against you for this. He would most likely be considered the original aggressor in the event for letting the dogs loose. Although in a state like Tx, this poses an interesting problem as you can use deadly force to protect property if there is no alternative. (I may have to start a new thread on this idea)

Theoretically, you could have a course of civil action against the dog owner for negligent infliction of emotional distress.

But what do I know,.. i'm just a law student. This opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it.

 

[Cosmoline]

My post was not responding to the original hypo but to subsequent posts that suggested it would be OK to trespass and counter-attack the dogs. As I pointed out this is one case where property lines matter a lot.

If the sidewalk is directly connected to private property with no obstacles in between, then there is nothing that would allow a reasonable person to infer that charging dogs would not continue their charge. Assuming you could not see their electronic collars, or other tell-tale signs, then you have no way of knowing you are NOT in immediate and life threatening danger.

Which would justify shooting from the sidewalk, but not running up onto the yard with a knife.

 

[jpIII]

Cosm.

Must have missed that.
I guess we might agree after all.

 

[Cosmoline]

I think I was at cross purposes with the main thread.

 

[spacemanspiff]

You defend your property appropriately, and that means putting up a REAL fence, to keep your dog from presenting an imminent danger to people on the sidewalk.

may not be an option. homeowners association might bar fences from being erected. we have some neighborhoods around anchorage with such a rule. hedges are okay, fences not.
now the true variable here, is whether or not the person percieving an attack knows there is an 'invisible fence'. not that i pretend to be a lawyer, but would a reasonable person believe the dogs to be penned by an electronic barrier? if not, would they be in the right to shoot a dog that is not visibly restrained, charging towards them? i believe so. anchorage has 'leash laws' that go unenforced, save for the times when an armed citizen or LEO has to shoot the dog that is on the loose and acting aggressively. up here, if a dogowner tried to plead a case of 'but its electronically restrained', both law enforcement and a judge would laugh in their face.

local law enforcement has stated several times on local news interviews that it is completely lawful to destroy an aggressive dog, and they urge all dogowners to keep their pets properly restrained.