Lehigh Xtreme bullets

[Kleanbore]

The bullets have generally proven it tears tissues similarly to a JHP.

If you say so.

The advertising is over the top but that doesn't diminish what the bullet does.

Nor does it substantiate the claims.

I wouldn't want that advertising read out in court, either. Best try really hard not to shoot anyone.

But if you have to, a mainstream, widely used round that does noot bring with it inflammatory advertising claims would be preferred.

 

[dweis]

I carry the Underwood 68 gr Defense bullet in .380 "+p" and 9x19 +p. I need to look into .32 magnum and .327 magnum, too.

The bullets have generally proven it tears tissues similarly to a JHP.

The advertising is over the top but that doesn't diminish what the bullet does.

I wouldn't want that advertising read out in court, either. Best try really hard not to shoot anyone.

The bullet does damage similar to a JHP. But it does not have to expand to do that. So it is good for 380. I use it for that caliber. For 9mm I use HST 124mgr JHP.

 

[tactikel]

A projectile @ 1000 fps in a 1:16 barrel rotates at 45000 rpm. A 9mm @1400 fps = 63000 rpm. This will impart a great deal of energy to tear tissue.
They are barrier blind being monolithic, flat nosed, and copper. Penetration exceeds FBI standards.
Gel tests indicate wound channels are significant, but even if they fail for some reason they perform no worse than FMJ. I carry Lehigh 68 gr in my .380 , 90 gr in my 9mm.

 

[StrykerByte.45]

I call them magic bullets. I think the benefits vary by caliber.

I replaced my 255gr 45super with 200gr Underwood Xtreme penetrators in 45super. My Glock 30S needs a 4.5" barrel to stabilize the 255s better but the XP do fine from the factory barrel and have low recoil. 13 round mags I dont trust using the 255gr, but the 200gr are no problem.

Later I tried the 135gr Xtreme Defenders 45super after they replaced the 120gr versions, I was never tempted to try the 120 grainers. Doing 1450fps from my G30S, thats 357mag power in the 3.77" bbl with less recoil than 185gr +P. That round itself is adequate for black bear, cougar, and human.

I bought 100gr Xtreme Defenders in 38 special to give my daughter a low recoil option with the snub nose. I don't think they have much of a ballistic advantage over other 38 special, but they do recoil alot less and my daughter likes them. We normally shoot 125gr at the range and those XD have alot less recoil.

I also got the 135gr 45acp doing 1200fps. Just like I thought, the recoil is so little, my daughter shoots them easy and that's the gun I leave at home for my daughters HD.
The S&W Shield Plus weighs exactly the same as my G30S. We have rented the Shield Plus 3 times and is the gun my daughter has convinced herself will be her first gun when she turns 21 in a few weeks. 9mm offers 65gr XD in 9mm, we haven't tried them. I imagine they recoil less than range ammo, but 65gr is really low in weight. Like the 120gr in 45auto, I'm not tempted to try them for SD and I advise my daughter the same. The G30S with XD has less felt recoil than the Shield Plus(135gr vs 115gr) Both guns have the same round capacity (10 and 13 rounds), same size, and weight. The projectile velocity is virtually identical.
My daughter has tried the micro 9s and didn't like them much more than the snub nose 38 special. Between the Shield and G30S, i think she likes the bigger bullets better, which is why now I find myself carrying the snub daily.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Gel tests indicate wound channels are significant, but even if they fail for some reason they perform no worse than FMJ. I carry Lehigh 68 gr in my .380 , 90 gr in my 9mm.

Type 250A ordnance gelatin tests results are underwhelming. Temporary cavity diameter is no greater than well designed JHPs in the same calibers.

The only Xtreme Defense load I recommend is the .380 ACP +P load, simply because it reliably penetrates more than 12".

I handload Xtreme Penetrator 9mm 115gr for bear defense with my G19 for when I'm mountain biking. All other times I use 147gr HST.

 

[westernrover]

I've begun to believe that these Phillips screwdriver things actually work. I don't believe the hoopla or the hype, but I do see the evidence that they behave differently than FMJ or SWC and that the 'Defender' version limits penetration similar to a functioning hollowpoint apparently without the need for the particular circumstances a hollowpoint needs to open effectively, such as a particular velocity for the bullet design.

So how does velocity affect these things? Suppose I load the 120 gr. Xtreme Defense bullets up in 357 Magnum. With light loads, a short snub barrel, it should be similar to 380. Somewhere in-between it could be similar to 9x19. With a long enough barrel and slow powder, it could go over 1500 fps.

What does that do for terminal performance? Does increasing the velocity result in more penetration? Does a lower velocity result in "penciling" through? I see their website lists a minimum impact velocity of 750 fps. What speed is optimal for the bullet and why?

 

[StrykerByte.45]

They performed the same across the board and velocity. The only difference would be how wide the wound channel is. The faster the projectile goes the harder the flutes work to slow it down, thus giving the same penetration. Whether it's loaded slow or fast, The only limit would be the hardness of its construction to the point where it breaks apart or deforms.

 

[Kleanbore]

The faster the projectile goes the harder the flutes work to slow it down, thus giving the same penetration.

That makes zero sense, and it belies the laws of physics.

 

[westernrover]

We know that if a hollowpoint is overdriven, it can expand more, losing sectional density and penetrate less. At some high enough velocity, it can come apart and the fragments can have poor penetration.
The all-copper monolithic hollowpoints stay together at high impact velocities. There is a limit to their expansion because the copper petals fold back against the bullet shank and expansion stops. At that point, the more velocity, the deeper the penetration. This would also be true for other hollowpoints that have controlled expansion like A-frames and maybe XTP.

So what does happen when the Xtreme Defense bullet impacts at lower or higher velocities? How does that affect the wounding/damage and the penetration? This would be vital information because there is no point in suffering extra recoil if it is doing nothing productive or causing excess penetration.

 

[StrykerByte.45]

Magic Bullets

 

[murf]

Does increasing the velocity result in more penetration?

no, the varying velocities result in the same penetration as demonstrated by this video (the variety of barriers reduce the velocity of the bullet but does not affect the penetration):

jhp bullets through barriers are a "crap shoot" when it comes to expansion and penetration.

murf

 

[BreechFace]

I didn't watch the video but...

If increased velocity doesn't show up in an increase in penetration, that has to prove the point that the flutes are in fact imparting increased energy into the target as velocity increased if the test media is giving consistent performance on each varying shot.

But those are two big ifs....

If the bullet is non-expanding, the extra energy from increased velocity has to go somewhere.

Law of Conservation of Energy

 

[Kleanbore]

no, the varying velocities result in the same penetration as demonstrated by this video (the variety of barriers reduce the velocity of the bullet but does not affect the penetration):

Incorrect interpretat.ion

 

[Shawn Dodson]

The video is disappointing.

First, the gelatin is too warm and it wasn't calibrated. It should've been put in the refrigerator for a couple of days to get it to the proper temperature, and then calibrate it before shooting it so the penetration results would more closely mirror typical soft tissues.

Second, the guy performing the test apparently doesn't know how to interpret the wounding effects depicted in the gelatin. He's impressed by the "wound cavity" produced by the Xtreme Defender bullet. Problem is, the bullet simply created a slightly larger temporary cavity than the Hornady Critical Duty and Federal HST bullets.

The temporary cavity is exactly what the name states it is - temporary. It is soft tissues that are pushed aside by the penetrating bullet which then rebound back to where they were. It's entirely analgous to the the splash when a rock is thrown into water. Think of it as "tissue splash".

Handgun bullets do not produce a large enough temporary cavity to be relied upon to permanently damage soft tissues. Soft tissues just stretch and rebound, and usually suffer damage no greater than being bruised.

Whereas in Type 250A gelatin the temporary cavity causes cracks in gelatin that unqualifed bullet testers call a "wound cavity", which misinforms people that watch the video.

Gelatin cracks to relieve the strain from being stretched beyond its ability to tolerate stretching. Vital soft tissues do not crack like gelatin does. The radial cracks produced in gelatin record the diameter of the temporary cavity. It does not depict permanent tissue disruption, therefore the term "wound cavity" is incorrect and misleading.

If you encounter anybody using the term "wound cavity" to describe the cracks produced in gelatin caused by the temporary cavity of a handgun bullet, then you shouldn't put much faith in anything else that person tells you about wounding effects.

 

[Kleanbore]

Second, the guy performing the test apparently doesn't know how to interpret the wounding effects depicted in the gelatin.

There is lot of that going around.

 

[StrykerByte.45]

no, the varying velocities result in the same penetration as demonstrated by this video (the variety of barriers reduce the velocity of the bullet but does not affect the penetration):

jhp bullets through barriers are a "crap shoot" when it comes to expansion and penetration.

murf

The benefits of barrier penetration is also something to consider.
I don't know if they would create bigger wound channels, gel test results that they cause similar cavitation. Caliber choice with these bullets might be more important than using hollow points, but these rounds seem to perform well in all calibers, even putting .380 on par with 9mm.
I'm impressed by hard barrier penetration tests.

 

[murf]

Incorrect interpretat.ion

opinions are not "incorrect" as you opinion here is neither correct, or incorrect. it is just your opinion.

murf

 

[Kleanbore]

opinions are not "incorrect" as you opinion here is neither correct, or incorrect. it is just your opinion.

The bullets that went through the heavier barriers did not penetrate as far as the others, though the difference was slight.. One can see that in the imagery. The presenter also says as much, but his ability to interpret gel test results is questionable.

 

[murf]

the bullet simply created a slightly larger temporary cavity than the Hornady Critical Duty and Federal HST bullets.

it is larger. and in this scenario, larger is better.

Handgun bullets do not produce a large enough temporary cavity to be relied upon to permanently damage soft tissues. Soft tissues just stretch and rebound, and usually suffer damage no greater than being bruised.

maybe you should watch the paul harrell video and take note of the permanent wound channel of the pork ribs both front and back. regardless, the xtreme defender bullet makes as big, or bigger, permanent wound cavity in the ribs than the hollow point bullets.

murf

 

[murf]

The bullets that went through the heavier barriers did not penetrate as far as the others, though the difference was slight.. One can see that in the imagery. The presenter also says as much, but his ability to interpret gel test results is questionable.

as ability to interpret should be questioned for every person.

murf

 

[Kleanbore]

it is larger. and in this scenario, larger is better.

It is meaningless.

as ability to interpret should be questioned for every person.

But this fellow described the temporary cavity in gel, as indicated by miniscule cracks in the non-fibrous testing medium, as a "wound cavity". He has not been alone in that, but it is factually incorrect within the performance envelop at hand.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

it is larger. and in this scenario, larger is better.

The temporary cavity is like 2" in diameter - it will only bruise tissues with no physical disruption.

maybe you should watch the paul harrell video and take note of the permanent wound channel of the pork ribs both front and back. regardless, the xtreme defender bullet makes as big, or bigger, permanent wound cavity in the ribs than the hollow point bullets.

I've seen it. The pork ribs are aged meat and do not represent living resilient soft tissues.

Ribs also do not represent vital soft tissues.

 

[westernrover]

How did Fackler develop his wound profile drawings?


Were these drawings interpreted from the calibrated standard 10% gel he developed the spec for? How did he distinguish the temporary from the permanent wound cavity?

 

[Kleanbore]

It would be interesting to see the resaults of a controlled jury simulation experiment in which jurors are shown the advertising for different bullets and some loaded ammunition for these rounds and for some main-stream premium defensive ammunition. With enough ambiguity in the evidence , it should be possible to measure whether the ammunition choice might indicate mens rea.

 

[Kleanbore]

How did Fackler develop his wound profile drawings?

The one shown is from a high velocity rifle round that fragmented.