Lehigh Xtreme bullets

Status
Not open for further replies.
I don't use the terms "wound cavity" and "wound channel" because they're misleading.

I use the terms "wound track", "permanant cavity", and "temporary cavity".

I use the term "permanent disruption" when the temporary cavity and/or bullet fragmentation increases the size of the permanent cavity beyond tissues that are directly contacted and crushed by the penetrating bullet.
 
That makes zero sense, and it belies the laws of physics.

Lol. But but "with modern advancements in bullet design, 32 will outpenetrate 30-30" what does physics have to do with it.

And if that were the case, why stop at a 220 in 44 mag. Just make it a 90 gr bullet. Since it won't over penetrate.......


Ordnance gelatin actually does a poor job of depicting the alleged wounding effects of the Xtreme Defender bullet design.

Why?

Because the cracks in ordnance gelatin, produced by the Xtreme Defender bullet, represent the temporary cavity produced, not tissue that is allegedly cut and torn open.

The only way to verify and validate the claims behind the Xtreme Defender's wounding effects is to shoot live animals with it, and then have a competent and reputable person interpret and describe the wounding effects.

Fine, I'll play. I ordered 50 of the 44 mag penetration bullets. I'll kill a couple doe, and likely headshot a beef or two. A dollar a round is pretty steep for just bullets


I don't get caught up in all of the technicalities of this. I just want to know if it will cleanly kill deer and black bear from a 45 Colt or 357 magnum.

I'm sure it will work. Either of those rounds is decent enough even with linotype non expanding. The debate/ magic is extra penetration or the super duper expansion from the no.3 Phillips head tip
 
My conclusion is that jacketed hollowpoints don't offer as much as I've allowed myself to believe.

If I cast out all the zaney, absurd wounding theories that have accompanied various explanations of how Lehigh Xtreme Defense bullets work, I notice a couple things:

  • They appear to consistently exhibit an appropriate amount of penetration under most all circumstances. Unlike jacketed hollowpoints that exhibit appropriate penetration only under ideal circumstances.
  • They do not exhibit extremely poor tissue disruption like lead round nose or FMJ. I think everyone could agree that they at least behave more similarly to a semi-wadcutter but with more controlled penetration.

Do we need to also believe hyper/extreme wounding capability to find the above two points alone a compelling case for these bullets? I think the answer lies in what you actually believe about the hyper/extreme wounding of JHP.
a couple of things:

first, bullet manufacturers will say most anything (right or wrong) to sell bullets.

second, i fully agree with both your conclusions about lehigh defense bullets. i would add a third observation that the bullets are 99.99 percent barrier blind.

third, i believe your hyper/extreme wounding question will be definitively answered by a couple of crazy (as in do things no one else in their right mind would do) posters that will take these bullets afield and test them on live game. one can only hope, i suppose.

thanks for the great thread,

murf
 
Another amateur video....

To conclude anything, one would need to see much more scientific testing.
 
I would caution against gettin hung-up on the wounding aspect of handgun bullets. They all perform poorly. Some more poorly than others, but there is no evidence that any of them are spectacular.

The FBI (and Fackler) established the current standards based primarily on penetration. It was a lack of penetration that up-ended the practices of 1986. I would even assert that it is penetration goals more than anything else that drive the current standard's demand for expansion. Nothing about the current standard specifies anything about wounding. The standard has an explicit, objective criteria for penetration.

Do jacketed hollowpoints consistently meet our own penetration goals? I think that increasingly we have to consider threats in busy and crowded environments. In the past, we were much more likely to encounter the need for the use of lethal force in isolated circumstances of opportunistic violence with few witnesses, anonymity and ample opportunities for escape. More and more, people are facing suicidal, homicidal threats presented to gain attention and notoriety by targeting many people in high-visibility situations.

The FBI previously dismissed concerns about overpenetration, stating that beause of the low hit-rate, it wasn't rational to be concerned with the trajectory of bullets exiting the target when there were a lot of other bullets that were missing and not having any chance of being slowed or stopped. Previous attempts to address the issue of overpenetration like the Glaser Safety Slugs proved ineffective and the concern was mostly dismissed. At present, jacketed hollowpoints are held to the standard of 18 inches of penetration through gel. Using a bullet that is known to consistently penetrate more than 18" could be considered negligent.

Do Xtreme Defense bullets consistently prevent overpenetration under more conditions than jacketed hollowpoints?
 
For your viewing pleasure. HERE is a 7 year old article on the Inceptor ARX round... one of the pioneers of the solid non expanding injection moulded rounds and a little history of its origins. Somewhere, I have a one on one interview that was done with it's creator.
 
For your viewing pleasure. HERE is a 7 year old article on the Inceptor ARX round... one of the pioneers of the solid non expanding injection moulded rounds and a little history of its origins. Somewhere, I have a one on one interview that was done with it's creator.
Thats what got me into the Xtreme series. I really like the ARX, except that they have alot of flash, the most out of all ammo I ever tried on my .45auto. I prefer the 45auto because, like someone pointed out, I dont get hung up on wounding. I believe the only thing that matters is holes, big holes. I know, shot placement is key, but if that fails, blood loss is the next best fight stopper. Am I right? I mean, obviously, more pills are needed, but if for some reason they cant be delivered.
I prefer to make 2 .45cal holes(per shot), but you know, collateral damage. It seems to me the best round to use in good conscience is a projectile which will reliably stop within an attacker's center mass (and aim for center mass) The Xtreme Defenders are clothing blind, as we know, the hollow points for one reason or another can fail a good fraction of the time. For me, there really is no other reason for the use of hollow points other than the attempt to not over penetrate; the extra lethality of hollow points(if any) is undesired. Although, I do understand there can be some circumstances where the extra lethality is necessary, such as a low capacity firearm. Also, I'm only referring my thoughts on civilian self defense, assuming the incident takes place in at least a somewhat populated area.
Another plus for these rounds is the ability to cross hard barriers and still have (or has a much better chance of) the desired performance of not over penetrating. The ARX has the added benefit of fragmenting into dust if it impacts impenetrable barriers where other projectiles can ricochet and become strays, very desirable for highly populated areas.
I don't reload yet, but I also prefer to buy ammunition that uses Starline brass. I fire off carry ammo 2 or 3 times a year. I have hundreds of Starline once fired cases from Underwood in 45acp and 45super. I also buy 45acp range ammo from a local ammunition manufacturer that uses Starline brass. There's alot of pluses and minus to my choosing between ARX and Underwood Xtreme Defender ammo. It seems that now, the ARX is a close enough practice round for the Xtreme Defender because of the low cost, but definitely worthy as a self defense round.

Being that all handgun calibers "suck" The Xtreme Defenders or ARX in .45auto hit some important criteria:
1)Biggest entry hole(vs other calibers)
2)Clothing & Bone Blind/ No Over Penetration
3)Hard Barrier Penetration
4)Lead Free(why not)
5)Easier to carry/ more ammunition (vs 185/230 grains)
6)More Reliable Feeding (vs 185/230 grains)
7)Light Recoil (vs 185/230 grains and other calibers)
8)Flatter Trajectory (vs 185/230 grains)

200gr is the bare minimum projectile weight I would use for serious large animal defense, the 45auto XP meets that. 118gr ARX, I feel are a bit on the light side. I definitely feel more confident with the 135gr XD. There used to be ARX practice ammo that was 135gr ball. I honestly liked that ammo. Momentum is good.
 
@Gunfu_Blaster.45 I totally agree with your analogy. I've been carrying ARX in my 9MM and .38Spcl EDC's for years. Because of the pandemic I have been having trouble finding it in .380 for my pocket rocket.

To add to your analogy and expand on it somewhat and to give a little history of the ARX round development...it was originally designed to be loaded into a polymer case hence the polymer/copper matrix projectile. It was the only way feasible to get adherance to the case. The discovery they made was the lighter projectile offered increased velocity thus amplifying the hydraulic effect from the rotational force and they worked amazingly well with brass cases. The original quest was to develop a polymer cartridge for a one time use where the opposition (think Latin America drug cartel) could not pick up the spent brass and reload it to use against law enforcement. Because of the urban environment where this war on drugs was taking place the projectile design was born out of the need for it to penetrate different clothing barriers and expend all of its energy before turning over and applying the brakes so as to minimize collateral damage. The result is a projectile that doesn't clog and is not dependent upon expansion to develop its energy.
 
I believe the only thing that matters is holes, big holes. I know, shott placement is key, but if that fails, blood loss is the next best fight stopper.
Dp upu really believe that the rate of blood loss from a handgun wound would improve one's chances of effecting a timely physical stop? Think again.
The Xtreme Defenders are clothing blind, as we know, the hollow points for one reason or another can fail a good fraction of the time.
Premium defensive JHP rounds are tested against clothing, wall board, auto glass, and metal, and they meet the requirements.
The discovery they made was the lighter projectile offered increased velocity thus amplifying the hydraulic effect from the rotational force
A handgun bullet will rotate one time in ten inches. What leads you to beleive that there is a measurable "hydraulic effect from the rotational velocity" . particularly in in a non-fluidic medium, and if there were, what to you think it would do?
 
A handgun bullet will rotate one time in ten inches. What leads you to beleive that there is a measurable "hydraulic effect from the rotational velocity" . particularly in in a non-fluidic medium, and if there were, what to you think it would do?
I don't profess to be a bullet engineer, I don't play one on TV nor do I profess to have great knowledge in that field. What I do, do.. is leave that to people that do it for their livelihood. I put more credence in what they have to say than some argumentive self proclaimed expert on the internet. That being said here is an excerpt from Paul Lemke, the creator of the ARX round from an interview with FFL Unleashed magazine several years ago.



"Lemke and Gorman:
The ARX (Advanced Rotation eXtreme) is a highly effective non-expanding defense bullet. What I mean by that is the ARX is designed to be just as effective at transferring energy as a hollow-point (thus avoiding pass through and the potential for collateral damage), while eliminating failures sometimes associated with hollow-points due to failure to expand. The ARX does this by transferring energy in an entirely new way. The grooves on the ARX are engineered to forcefully displace fluids/soft-tissue laterally away from the bullet. This fluid dynamic energy transfer creates a massive wound channel, and results in a very efficient energy dump in soft-tissue targets. And all of this is from a bullet that passes through clothing with no risk of clogging or failures due to non-expansion. In this regard, the ARX is a much simpler tool than a hollow-point, since it does not have to undergo a mechanical transformation in order to do its job. All things being equal, most people will take the simpler, but equally effective tool in a life or death situation!"
 
Dp upu really believe that the rate of blood loss from a handgun wound would improve one's chances of effecting a timely physical stop? Think again.
you don't hunt much, do you. two holes bleed out faster than one.

Premium defensive JHP rounds are tested against clothing, wall board, auto glass, and metal, and they meet the requirements.
and fail miserably as shown in the posted videos.

A handgun bullet will rotate one time in ten inches. What leads you to beleive that there is a measurable "hydraulic effect from the rotational velocity" . particularly in in a non-fluidic medium, and if there were, what to you think it would do?
animals are 75 percent water (a fluid). do you understand the concept of a pump? the impeller forces the fluid laterally just like spinning bullets.

murf
 
The FBI (and Fackler) established the current standards based primarily on penetration. It was a lack of penetration that up-ended the practices of 1986. I would even assert that it is penetration goals more than anything else that drive the current standard's demand for expansion. Nothing about the current standard specifies anything about wounding. The standard has an explicit, objective criteria for penetration.

IIRC, the FBI selection criteria specifies a bullet that expands at least 1.5 times it's unexpanded diameter.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WYO
you don't hunt much, do you. two holes bleed out faster than one.
The poster spoke of a .45 ACP and said nothing about two holes.

Stopping a charging assailant timely is not the same as hunting, and a slightly higher rate of blood loss is immaterial.

and fail miserably as shown in the posted videos.
Bullets that "fail miserably" would not meet FBI specifications.

animals are 75 percent water (a fluid). do you understand the concept of a pump? the impeller forces the fluid laterally just like spinning bullets.
  • Cabbage is more than 90% water, but it cannot be used to drive a turbine, and it does not work well at all in pump.
  • What do you think that the supposed lateral movement of the fluid accomplishes?
  • One turn in ten inches inches of rapid forward movement would not have the effect of a stationary spinning impeller.
IRC, the FBI selection criteria specifies a bullet that expands at least 1.5 times it's unexpanded diameter.
That is listed as a desired result, for projectile diameters generally used in law enforcement.
 
"Lemke and Gorman: ...The ARX does this by transferring energy in an entirely new way. The grooves on the ARX are engineered to forcefully displace fluids/soft-tissue laterally away from the bullet. This fluid dynamic energy transfer creates a massive wound channel, and results in a very efficient energy dump in soft-tissue targets.

Were there any photos of actual wounds in tissue offered as proof of a "massive wound channel".

There's nothing "new" about the ARX design. I tested a similar bullet design 20 years ago.

The reverse ogive French THV bullet also predates ARX by decades:
24883443_856980201147567_5438803377930869599_o.jpg
 
Last edited:
A handgun bullet will rotate one time in ten inches. What leads you to beleive that there is a measurable "hydraulic effect from the rotational velocity" . particularly in in a non-fluidic medium, and if there were, what to you think it would do?

Actually, for an average velocity of those Lehigh rounds of 1,500fps, the bullet would be spinning ~1,800RPS or 108,000RPM

Glock 19 twist rate = 1:9.84 (for the sake of maths we’ll call it 1:10)
Barrel Length = 4”
Avg. Velocity of Lehigh Extreme Penetrators = 1,500fps

So to calculate RPM’s of the bullet it would be:

Velocity x 12”/twist rate = Revolutions/Second
1,500fps x (12/10) = 1,800 RPS

So while not extreme RPS/RPMs one sees in rifle rounds 1,800RPS or 108,000RPM is something when going through a medium with flutes that are supposed to impart the force into the target.

It’a the amount of force that RPS/RPM can transfer that is the question.
 
For how long? Think about it. The effect obviously depends on the answer.

Correct, I’m suspicious as well, it’s hard to break into the JHP market when there is so much evidence in them working well for what they are; a pistol round.

The Lehigh rounds do intrigue me though, but no way am I changing out my proven defensive rounds for them at this point until there are some significant trials performed by agencies that know how to measure effectiveness. Not some dubious YouTuber who knows how to pour gel blocks.

I like watching gel block tests but I see them for what they are, a very basic visual of force on a target, with a good showing of potential expansion.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top