Lemon Squeezer
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Kaeto
Member
I'd love to own a 'Lemon Squeezer' but the sellers on gunbroker seem to think theirs are made of platinum and price them like they are.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Forget the Internet. Haunt the gun shops and shows. They are out there. I'm still kicking myself over the S&W 38 Safety Hammerless for $200 that I passed up last year.
The Safety Hammerless was one of Smith & Wesson's most popular lines. Production started in the late 1880's and the .32 version remained in production until 1937. The .38 even longer until 1940.
My point is they aren't rare or even scarce except in barrel lengths under 3 inches (look out for cut-offs) and longer then 4 inches.
So it's not unusual to find them in pawn shops and retailers - as well as smaller auctions where they show up in estate auctions. Cracked or chipped hard-rubber stocks are not uncommon and will bring the price down. Replacements run about $30. Those that have the "T" shaped barrel latch are usually safe to shoot with smokeless powder ammunition if they are in good condition, but .32 and .38 S&W cartridges are sometimes hard to find, especially today.
Incidentally, two U.S. presidents are known to have owned a .38 Safety Hammerless, and both were named Roosevelt - Theodore and Franklin D.; and the 6"/.38 version was considered by the Army to be a replacement for the .45 model 1873 SAA.
My point is they aren't rare or even scarce except in barrel lengths under 3 inches (look out for cut-offs) and longer then 4 inches.
So it's not unusual to find them in pawn shops and retailers - as well as smaller auctions where they show up in estate auctions. Cracked or chipped hard-rubber stocks are not uncommon and will bring the price down. Replacements run about $30. Those that have the "T" shaped barrel latch are usually safe to shoot with smokeless powder ammunition if they are in good condition, but .32 and .38 S&W cartridges are sometimes hard to find, especially today.
Incidentally, two U.S. presidents are known to have owned a .38 Safety Hammerless, and both were named Roosevelt - Theodore and Franklin D.; and the 6"/.38 version was considered by the Army to be a replacement for the .45 model 1873 SAA.
rswartsell
Member
Wouldn't the Army replacement candidate actually be the Model 3 in .44 S&W American?
Driftwood Johnson
Member
No.
I dunno anything about the Army buying Safety Hammerless models, but the Army purchased 1000 American models chambered for the 44 S&W American cartridge in 1870, before they purchased any Colt SAAs. The Colt had not been developed yet. In 1875 the Army purchased 3000 1st Model Schofields chambered for the 45 Schofield cartridge. This was after the Army had accepted delivery of the first batch of Colt Single Action Armys. In 1876 or 1877 the Army purchased a bit more than 5000 2nd Model Schofields, but they never replace the Colt.
Part of the problem here is referring to the large frame S&W Top Breaks as the "Model 3". The size of the frames was the #3, but that did not define specific models. There were five separate and distinct large frame Top Break models built on the #3 sized frame; the American Model, the Russian Model, the Schofield Model, the New Model Number Three (the only one that incorporated the frame size in the name), and the 44 Double Action.
No.
By 1890 the army had decided to drop the .45 hog-leg and replace it with a .38 double action revolver. This might seem ill advised to our cowboy fans, but that’s the way it was.
So they bought 100 Safety Hammerless .38’s with 6-inch barrels to trial and test because they liked the internal hammer/double-action and the grip safety. Around 1886 S&W had made a prototype in .44 Russian, but never put it into production. But it likely would have been available if the army was interested.
They liked the .38’s, but when they got to environmental testing the rust test destroyed the small parts and tiny springs in the lockwork.
In 1892 Colt won the contract when their New Model Army/Navy hand ejector was adopted.
rswartsell
Member
Like the man said, learn something new every day.
I personally would not be averse to using my Safety Hammerless today. Function is flawless with modern .38 S&W from S&B or Fiocci. The round is a little anemic but the design is spot on for carrying in an overcoat pocket at handshake distance.
I think the lock work including the break top cartridge ejection is as classy and elegant as it gets. JMHO
It seems that a slightly smoking .361 hole in your nice wool overcoat may be easier to repair than the aftermath of an armed robbery. I do not know the intent of Smith and Wesson regarding the safety in the presence of children theory, but the real users of the weapon including the two Roosevelts seemed to agree with my interpretation. Whether by design or not it became the era's preferred coat pocket belly gun.
I personally would not be averse to using my Safety Hammerless today. Function is flawless with modern .38 S&W from S&B or Fiocci. The round is a little anemic but the design is spot on for carrying in an overcoat pocket at handshake distance.
I think the lock work including the break top cartridge ejection is as classy and elegant as it gets. JMHO
It seems that a slightly smoking .361 hole in your nice wool overcoat may be easier to repair than the aftermath of an armed robbery. I do not know the intent of Smith and Wesson regarding the safety in the presence of children theory, but the real users of the weapon including the two Roosevelts seemed to agree with my interpretation. Whether by design or not it became the era's preferred coat pocket belly gun.
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The adoption of the .38 Colt was pretty much in line with the general military handgun trend at the time, away from large (10-12 mm) caliber and to small (7-9mm). The same trend took place in rifles as well, and the U.S. was not significantly behind other nations in either respect. The reason was that lethality could be achieved either with a big, slow bullet, or a small, fast bullet. As powders improved, the small fast bullet became practical, and that was the trend. (The same argument still persists - the only difference is that the rifle calibers have changed from .45 and .30 to .30 and .22 or .17.)
The only nation retaining its .455 caliber revolver was Britain, which contended that the big bore was needed to deal with folks who weren't "civilized" enough to know when they were shot and just fall down. Most European countries kept the small caliber, but the U.S. went back to .45 when it encountered some "uncivilized" people.
Ironically, when the British did decide to do away with the .455 revolver, they went to a .38 caliber that was not any better than the .38 Long Colt that the U.S. had rejected 30 years earlier.
Jim
The only nation retaining its .455 caliber revolver was Britain, which contended that the big bore was needed to deal with folks who weren't "civilized" enough to know when they were shot and just fall down. Most European countries kept the small caliber, but the U.S. went back to .45 when it encountered some "uncivilized" people.
Ironically, when the British did decide to do away with the .455 revolver, they went to a .38 caliber that was not any better than the .38 Long Colt that the U.S. had rejected 30 years earlier.
Jim
picturerock
Member
Iggy, (post 13), that has to be the prettiest little pistol ever. I would in fact buy one should they ever make one again!
Kaeto
Member
*Flogs Skribs with a lemon peel*
Gun Master
Member
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy Again
Sorry fellas, that is incorrect. That is not a Bicycle Gun, at least not the way S&W collectors define them. As I tried to explain earlier in this thread, the Bicycle Guns were short barreled Safety Hammerless Top Breaks. Yes, Bicycle Guns are uncommon and yes they are sought after. They command a much higher price than a standard Safety Hammerless. Bicycle Guns usually had a 2" barrel. The 1 1/2" barreled versions are rare and very valuable. I have attended auctions where Bicycle Guns have gone for over $1000, the 2" barreled versions.
This is a 38 caliber Bicycle Gun. Notice there is no hammer.
This is a 32 caliber Bicycle Gun.
This is a contemporary advertisement explaining the concept of the Bicycle Gun. Notice it specifically says Safety Hammerless.
What we have here is a Perfected that has had its barrel shortened. Factory standard barrel lengths for he 38 Double Action Perfected Model were 3 1/4", 4", 5", and 6". Not two inches. Front sights on the Perfected Models were forged onto the barrel, they were not a separate piece pinned to the barrel. Notice this gun had a new front sight applied and pinned in place after the barrel was cut down.
Other companies also made short barreled guns they marketed as bicycle guns of one sort or another. Iver Johnson made one with a hammer. But as far as S&W was concerned the Bicycle Guns were short barreled Safety Hammerless guns.
Kernel
Member
Iver Johnson did more than just make bicycle guns, they made bicycles. This add is circa 1909. $50 would of been a tidy sum of money back then, accounting for inflation, that would be approx $1,250 in today's money.
JohnnyCremains
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Iggy that little snub perfected is cool. I have an 1896 snubbie
I also have this snubbie lemon squeezer
I also have this snubbie lemon squeezer
Kaeto
Member
I'd love to have that 'squeezer.
Kernel
Member
Even H&R got in on the bicycle craze of the 1890's: 2", 12 oz, 5 shot..... specs kinda sounds like a J-frame Airweight.
rswartsell
Member
Johnny the nickel is beautiful, but suffers from the same refinished blues as mine. Still love it though.
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