Let's discuss the marksman rifle doctrine.

[Medusa]

4. To demoralize the enemy.
Nothing much more demoralizing than the guy next to you having his head explode all over you, and you can't even locate the guy doing it...

Umm. Yeah, if the guy with exploding head is currently sitting in the designated outhouse site, pants down and the guy trying to drag him out also gets it, thus making everybody lower than grass and making their dumps right into their foxholes, the idea of being somewhere else, far away, comes very appealing.

Otherwise the SDM has a primary role of extending the range of aimed fire of typical squad. Not precise fire, but aimed fire. Also he/she's the closest ranged fire support if you get the attention of enemy marksman.

 

[336A]

you are also incorrect, there is a purpose built designated marksmens rifle. the DMR as its known in the corps is a slightly modified m14. the corps also has the SAM-R which is a highly modified m16a4. just because you didnt see it in the army doesnt mean its not out there doing good.

Negative ghost rider the landing patteren is not clear. The Marine Corps and the Army share different views on certain areas here are some examples.

The Marine corps has their own armourers that build those weapons for your Marines to include the M40 series sniper system. The Army does not do this and we do NOT have a specialy built DMR. There was a much heated argument over this with folks from aberdeen proving grounds at the small arms convention I mentioned earlier. This area is where the Marine Corps has their priorities in order compared to the Army. The Amy M24 can not even be worked on at any depot level for repairs. It must be sent back to Remington for repairs again different from the Marine Corps.
The Marine Corps also issues the ACOG optic now for the M16, the Army does not. Yes we have them but guess who buys them?.... It is a local unit purchase on the IMPAC card that is where we get them from. The only optic that is issued is the Aim Point reflexive sight, which sucks because it relies on batteries. The Army needs to wake up and get rid of the M68 (Aim Point) and do like the Marines and issue the ACOG.
Here is another difference Marines use a M240G the Army M240B. Yes overall the same but they are not or there would not be a B and G version of the same platform. Also about those weapons I am not saying that they are not out there. I am saying that the Army is not buying/using a highly modified anything for a DMR, not regulaar units anyway. Not only have I not seen it but neither have my peers in other batallions that just came home from Afghanastan.
The Marine Corps has a great battle dress uniform too, look at what the Army went to. A uniform which is way less durable than our old BDUs' and sticks out like a sore thumb when in the woodline. While alike in many ways the Army and Marines are not the same or operate the same. And the above quote is indeed incorrect when cocerning the regular Army.

 

[SnakeEater]

Here is another difference Marines use a M240G the Army M240B. Yes overall the same but they are not or there would not be a B and G version of the same platform

Yep, they're different. The 240B is the optimized ground combat model. +1 for the Army.

The Marine corps has their own armourers that build those weapons for your Marines to include the M40 series sniper system. The Army does not do this and we do NOT have a specialy built DMR.

Wrong and wrong. Ever hear of the USAMU? They are the guys who are building the SDM-R's.

The Army needs to wake up and get rid of the M68 (Aim Point) and do like the Marines and issue the ACOG

. The Aimpoint is a fine optic, probably better suited for normal combat range than the ACOG is.

 

[336A]

Wrong and wrong. Ever hear of the USAMU? They are the guys who are building the SDM-R's

Sorry sir but that statement is wrong. There is only one active duty unit to use the AMU built rifles and that was 3rd brigade 3ID (and that was only1 deployment). Seeing as how I was at the small arms conference and this was brought to bear is how I know 100% for sure. The reason is is because that a DM will eventually have to enter a room and clear a building. That is why no one else is currently using them, who wants to take a nice highly modified rifle and bang it around while trying to enter a room via a window? This is also why that brigade no longer uses those rifles. Believe me or don't I don't give a tinkers damn, If I am wrong prove me wrong with current and relivent documentation.

 

[DMK]

Here's the question: Which is more important, the doctrine of intelligence gathering or the weapons' performance?

There's a big difference between a sniper and a designated marksman. There's also a big difference between the mission of a SF DM and a regular unit DM.

If the unit's job is recon then intelligence gathering is a priority and "avoid contact" is the phrase of the day. In that situation, an SF DM might have a mission more like a dedicated sniper. It may be to provide "high cover" or to put a target designator on a priority target and call in a smart munition. In the case of an SF unit, stealth is usually the key (small unit, operation behind lines, get in quietly, cause damage, get out quick). Seals use accurized 16" carbines with optics or they also have an 18" SPR. Army SF uses an 18" SPR. Some units may use 7.62 guns like M14s/M21s or the Knights AR platform. I believe they have a lot of latitude to choose a preferred weapon for the mission.

A dedicated sniper's mission might be similar (target ID and designation), or it may be to go in and take out a key individual. Two man team, stealth is necessary for survival. Mostly bolt action guns here. Dedicated snipers really are Special Forces, even if they aren't technically considered as such.

A regular unit DM's job is to provide extended range or precision cover for troops advancing or retreating. It may be to knock out a semi-concealed enemy pinning down troops or to pinpoint same for heavy munitions called in. These guys aren't going to rely on stealth much. They want to keep the enemy pinned down so the good guys can maneuver. Regular unit DMs mostly use M16A4 type guns, some purpose built accurized guns are coming online now. The occasional M14 was pressed into service out of necessity, but I don't believe it's an officially sanctioned weapon for this role.

They have different weapons, different roles.

 

[Jeremy2171]

Quote:Here is another difference Marines use a M240G the Army M240B. Yes overall the same but they are not or there would not be a B and G version of the same platform

Yep, they're different. The 240B is the optimized ground combat model. +1 for the Army.

The only difference between the two is:

240G has mechanical buffer/B has hydraulic.
240G has 3 port gas plug/B has single port (used w/hyd buffer)
240G has an ejection port dust cover
240G has a handguard and heatshield.

For 50 years no other nation has "needed" the 240B mods but the Army has gone ahead and made the mods and the Marines have now converted to the 240B so the issue of 240G vs 240B is no longer a big deal.

 

[Picknlittle]

I'm confused,...what the heck was the question?

I thought the initial issue was dealing with long range accuracy necessary for sniping or whatever. That being said, isn't the king of long range accuracy "bullet weight"?

I have learned that many 1000 meter shooters rely on 195 to 225 gr .308 cal bullets at longer distances. They hold the line better as well as retain more energy. Of course SD and BC are important too, but weight has more to do with repeatable accuracy.

True?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

From what I've learned so far is that the goal is to bridge the gap between organic riflemen and inorganic sniper units by creating a role to extended the squads effective range. The designated marksman is given a rifle to engage enemies double the range of what ordinary assault rifles are capable of. However they also can gather information about the enemy from the telescopic sight which is then used to direct heavy weapons towards.

Here's the question: Which is more important, the doctrine of intelligence gathering or the weapons' performance?

You can answer that question by asking more basic questions:

Given the designated marksman is part of a unit, what does he profit by not firing when everyone else is firing?

What communications does he have to report the information he gathers, and to whom does he report it?

What is it about a telescopic sight that makes it superior to the binoculars which most leaders carry?

 

[HorseSoldier]

The designated marksman is there for precision engagement of targets at longer ranges or in those situations where his additional training and specialized equipment (such as it may be) is applicable to closer range engagements. His function as a RSTA asset is minimal and not really what he is there with -- in that respect he does nothing that a pair of binoculars or any other troop armed with an ACOG equipped weapon can do.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

funfaler quoted:

It matters very little what caliber or weapons system that someone "buys", it matters wheather they can actually shoot the rifle.

That is a general statement but I can back you up 100% on the shooter actually shooting what he's got. He has to know what he has and he has to know it very,very well.

To hit out to 500 yards, takes a good bit of quality practice and some developed skill of the shooter, but is a skill level that is obtainable by most rifle owners. The skill to push lead out past 600 yards, is quite fine, and is outside the practical application of most rifle owners (the required knowledge and practice is something that most rifle owners will not do to reach this level of skill).

I certainly agree. Wind and distance. Lots of dedicated time to do it. I wish I had the undevoted time to pursue long distance shooting, very demanding.
300 yards is fine for most small arms but after that the differences really play out between the cartridges and calibers. I am not talking about 22s.

So with the above thoughts, it really means little what rifle a Rifleman finds in his hands, when he needs to make a shot, he will be better than the average non-Rifleman. I would put a Rifleman, with a Mosin-Nagant, against the average American rifle owner with an AR-15 or M1a, any day.

I like your straight talk. Well said and to the point.

 

[Blackfork]

Camp Perry, NRA Long Distance, Service Rifle

I understand someone won it this year with a Garand.

I have a friend who taught with me in the SDM schools at Ft Hood who has sent several thousand Sierra 77 Matchking/25gr Varget in an LC case to Iraq. He has some adopted Marine Reserve units he worked with at Ft Wolters that he supplies. Turns out you can just send them US post office, in their standard mailing box, straight to Iraq.

The SDM schools we taught for the Army used M14s and all variants of the M16. We had every kind of sight and optic except iron match sights. Leatherwood even came out once and showed us how his scope was suppossed to work.

There isn't much in the army field manual about SDM. (Squad Designated Marksman) We felt like we were just dispensing basic shooting skills which would be taught to the other guys in the units.

We had a Known Distance range re-commissioned- 44 North Delta at North Ft Hood. When you have pits and the troops can see where their bullets are hitting the targets, via the shot spotters placed in the targets, it's a big help. Feedback works.

The AMU SDM schools, supported by the CMP trained volunteers, (next ones are scheduled in Sept at Ft Benning) even pass out the USMC booklet on marksmanship.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

Feedback is key Garanteed. You can make the adjustment you need right on the spot and learn again right on the spot. Far too many units do not think to use proper feedback when using range facilities. I know the word (units) is very broad when it comes to the Army so take it easy on me. Some units come to mind when all they do is a quick class and head out to the range for the mandatory qualification. Always the wrong answer in my book. That's a reactive, time crunched, shove it down the chain's throat and lack of planning without forethought. Always produces average results at best.