The AK and the AR/My conclusion taking history into account.

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SeNNebogen

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:scrutiny:

In the beginning...there was a big long rifle with a giant bullet. But it was a manual operated, and it was slow to fire. Then came the machine gun but it was not very mobile and required more then one person to operate it. Then they came up with the light machine gun (which was good)and the submachine gun but the SMG had very limited range and was not suited for all practical ranges. Next was the semi auto rifle with a full power cartridge, now this WAS a good idea because they wanted to give every rifleman the fire power of a light machine gun but with a full power cartridge it could not be practically controled when fired fully automatic. Then came the Sturmgewehr with an intermidiate or short cartridge, which is where we are today.

You see, the Germans had found that it was actually better to have one rifle(they loved the M1carbine though it was lacking), that could be controled during rapid fire like an SMG yet still have the effective RANGE and POWER to engage the enemy well within PRACTICAL combat distances. There was also another feature and that was WEIGHT, because now your basic infantry man could carry more ammo.

Now I think range, power and weight speak for themselves. But let me elaborate on the word "practical" in the contex of "practical combat distances". It was quickly realized that most battles were not fought at extreme distances but in realitve close range. Most battles were not fought at hundreds upon hundreds of meters in open fields or from trenches at extreme distances like in WWI. War had evolved more for the most part from static to manoeuvre. And alot of the battles for strateigic points were fought in villages ,towns and cities wich are very bloody and very close.

After the last great war the lessons the Germans learned through blood were for the most part forgotten. Except maybe for the Russians who had it beaten into them so well. With the advent of nuclear weapons, small arms seemed to take a back seat(politics?). NATO wanted a standardized round the 7.62x51 a slighty smaller yet high pressure round as compared to the new enemy, the 7.62x54 Russian. The Russians in the mean time were tooling up for the SKS with the new 7.62x39 round much simular to the the German 7.92x33 Kurz of WW2.

Red flags go up! Its now the Korean war and the silly North Koreans and Chinease (volunteers:) ) are swarming by the millions in mass waves towards the line. The M1 Garand is somewhat lacking in fire power and the carbine is bounceing off their heavy quilted coats. So its eventually decieded to put a detachable magazine on the M1 Garand and call it an M14. But still the Kurz concept doesn't catch on.

Now its Vietnam, and it seems like were not gonna use nukes(politics?). and what is this? An AK-47! We have some catching up to do:eek: So we finally settle on a new light infantry rifle with the Kurz concept, the M16. It works well after we work out the bugs we ran into with the powder change. Its accurate so we can keep the old doctrine of the rifleman/marksman not like those silly commies running around spraying everything! And the guy who came up with the design is a friend of a friend(politics?) we all saw what it can do to watermelons! The only thing is it has to be cleaned but we will train our troops on proper maintenace.

So now the Russians see this and their jelous!(politics) They have a very good rifle(for their doctrine anyway) but they feel they now need to catch up, as with everything during the Cold War they develop something new to combat the evil capitalists. They come up with the AK-74. If you read all this crap so far and think your eyes are going dislexic, don't worry your OK. It goes from 47 to74, weird huh?

So now its the first Afgan war. The Soviets vs. the Hajis. The AK-74 vs. the AK-47 plus some other stuff like Enfields and Stinger missels. The AK-74 does well. It even gets the nick name the "poison bullet". This is because of its kooky ballistics. It has an air pocket in the nose to throw it off balance and make it yaw when it hits something(as compared to the 5.56 wich fragments). And it also has a hell of alot better accuracy the the older AK-47 7.62 round. Which allows the Russians to engage the enemy weapons supply caravans at greater distances when they catch them in the mountains. But still its lacking something......

Now comes Chechneya. And that something that the AK-74 is lacking becomes more apparent. The Russians are involved in brutal urban warfare with Muslim seperatists. And the problem is..... the AK-74 sux if you gotta shoot through a wall or a door or even burnt out vehicle. In fact, any kind of medium cover. A small light bullet will lose alot of energy, likely too much to be effective and it may even just bounce off. And the same holds true for the 5.56 AR-15.

So now we have these new pet projects like the Grendal, 6.8 this 6.5 that and even the Chinease have their own little thing they are working on. Take into account modern body armour with ceramic plates and everything seems to be lacking, though some more so then others. I say this because if think future conflicts will most likely revolve around an urban area.

So it seems that small arms development has once again taken a back seat. I think much more money has been spent on high technology weapons development. You can compensate to an extent for what your small arms are lacking if you can drop a special bomb right where you want it or even just call in an attack helicopter. And after you develop these special weapons you can sell them to your allies(politics), even the allies who don't have any need for your small arms.
 
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Good read. I also think we need to get our act to gether and invest in something revolutionary.
 
Not bad. Except for this:
the carbine is bounceing off their heavy quilted coats.
:scrutiny:

And this:
make it yaw when it hits something(as compared to the 5.56 wich fragments)
All rounds yaw when they hit something semi-solid (compared to the air they were previously traveling through). It just depends on how quickly they yaw. 5.56 yaws and then (sometimes) fragments due to it's light construction not up to the stresses at such high velocities.


Concerning small arms development, nothing is perfect. Everything is a compromise. The U.S. found the big bullets of the Krag to be very good manstoppers against the insanely aggressive moro tribesmen. Unfortunately, it was an awkward weapon and slow as a repeater. The Garand was a good stopper, but still too slow to deal with waves of attacking Chicoms. Increasing capacity and rate of fire (M14) made it uncontrollable at full tilt, though in semi-auto it was still a very effective weapon.

Going with a smaller, lighter round makes a rifle easier to fire rapidly with the tradeoff of less penetration in hard stuff, more deflection on cover and less effective range. Fragmentation and tumbling bullets was found out by accident, they were not design considerations (well except for the Russians with their '74s).

Those with air superiority and artillery support will always have the tactical advantage in open field. It's when you get in urban areas that the advantage fades. Especially with insurgents who like to grab your belt buckle and pull your into a knife fight in a phone booth. That's where the grunt is left to do what he can with his rifle, pistol, and grenades.

Then there's politics and strategic chess playing on the hearts and minds back at home. That's where the US always seems to get stuck and lose it's resolve. No weapon system will help solve that kind of problem.

In Vietnam, the US had the tactical advantage. It could beat the Cong and NVA in every environment. Unfortunately for the soldier, the problems were strategic. The GI won the battles, but the generals and politicians lost the war.

I suspect it's now deja vu all over again. We are now fighting a war where tactically, it went by the numbers, but strategic planning was blundered horribly.
 
After the last great war the lessons the Germans learned through blood were for the most part forgotten. Except maybe for the Russians who had it beaten into them so well. With the advent of nuclear weapons, small arms seemed to take a back seat(politics?). NATO wanted a standardized round the 7.62x51 a slighty smaller yet high pressure round as compared to the new enemy, the 7.62x54 Russian. The Russians in the mean time were tooling up for the SKS with the new 7.62x39 round much simular to the the German 7.92x33 Kurz of WW2.

And this.

NATO (at least Belgium, the UK, and Canada) wanted a true intermediate round to fire through a true assault rifle.

The only folks still tooting the full-power rifle cartridge horn were the idiots in the US Ordnance establishment who held their hands over their ears and hummed loudly anytime anyone mentioned the British .280 round or anything else that might infringe on the ability of the steely eyed rifleman (who didn't fire his weapon in combat 80% of the time in the recently concluded war) to pick off the enemy at 600 plus meters (where he could not acquire any target smaller than a Zulu impi charging at him).

Demonstrating that there is nothing new under the sun, the new and fancy rounds like 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 Rem SPC . . . look a whole lot, performance wise, like that mostly forgotten 280 British cartridge (and the Garand's original 276 Pedersen cartridge as well).

So it seems that small arms development has once again taken a back seat. I think much more money has been spent on high technology weapons development. You can compensate to an extent for what your small arms are lacking if you can drop a special bomb right where you want it or even just call in an attack helicopter. And after you develop these special weapons you can sell them to your allies(politics), even the allies who don't have any need for your small arms.

Quite the contrary. The basic bullet thrower has reached a point where there's no immediate breakthrough in technology or improvement, just shuffling around pluses and minuses. (The OICW was an attempt to end run around this stagnation, but so far it's not workable.)

But look at the $$$ being spent to develop other aspects of the weapon system. Specifically optics. Thirteen or fourteen years ago, when I got into the military, it was iron sights and pretty clunky night sights for engagement and surveillance, with just a few elite/special units having anything much better.

Now you can't swing a dead cat without hitting ten guys who've got red dots sights and ACOGs on their weapons, (even in some non-combat units). Night vision sights/goggles and IR pointers are also commonplace, with thermal weapons sights for individual rifles and carbines in the system as well.

There's plenty of money being spent, but its being spent where emerging technology gives an edge.
 
Roll, pitch and yaw are movements of an object (airplane, bullet, etc.) in three directions.

Roll is the motion that the rifling imparts to the bullet. Pitch is when the nose of the bullet moves up or down; Yaw is when the nose moves to the right or left.

Examples:

Roll = like a pencil rolling across a desk, or a ship rolling from side to side.

Pitch = The bow of a ship pitches up and down; same with the nose of an airplane.

Yaw = imagine placing a model airplane on a table with the landing gear retracted. If you spin it clockwise or counterclockwise, as seen from above, that's yaw.
 
The reason small arms have been largely neglected in development is because the benefit from future developments are seen (rightfully so) as marginal. There is no "making a better gun" using existing materials; at this point, it's just a trade-off. And it's probably a trade-off that wouldn't make a difference: training has been shown to be much more important than the actual small arms used. Look at our troops in urban combat using 'puny' 5.56 ammo vs. larger 7.62x39-shooting troops: we're still kicking ass.

And, I should note, even if there was a marginal advance capable from new advances, it wouldn't matter much on the grand scheme of things. Other technologies give a much broader advantage; hell, we're still using the M2 to greatly detrimental affect on our enemies. :evil: Things like targeting systems, armor, and other strategic technologies are of greater value at this time. (At any rate, it doesn't matter much when our enemy is primarily using IEDs and suicide bombers. A bigger bullet won't stop them sooner.)

It doesn't matter so much what tools you've got as how you use them. As an example, look at WWII: the Germans had better weapons than we did, in most cases. Their MGs were better, their tanks were better, their planes were better, and their large guns were better. We won by looking at where they were weak and taking advantage of that strategically by using paratroopers to get behind their lines, making bigger, better, and more ships (carriers vs. battleships), and using riflemen/precision fire vs. their machine gun nests.
 
Only thing left to do now is...

A stand alone, single man portable, 25mm box fed rifle(or would that be a rocket launcher?) that will take out hardened targets beyond the range and accuracy of 40mm ability, that can work in the role of a DM rifle, and give this guy an M4 to strap on his back while every man on the team carries an extra mag of 25mm for the big boomer;) .
 
As an example, look at WWII: the Germans had better weapons than we did, in most cases. Their MGs were better, their tanks were better, their planes were better, and their large guns were better. We won by looking at where they were weak and taking advantage of that strategically by using paratroopers to get behind their lines, making bigger, better, and more ships (carriers vs. battleships), and using riflemen/precision fire vs. their machine gun nests.
The Germans were just plain outnumbered and fighting on too many fronts. They could not hold all the ground they conquered against all their enemies inside and out. Same thing happened to the Romans.

We also beat them at the numbers game. For every airplane, ship, tank, man, etc they killed/destroyed, we could replace them with many more as well as replace those of our allies. They had excellent equipment and excellent tactics, but they could not keep it up in any long term. They could not make machines and replace men fast enough. The Japanese had the same problems.

Having the best weapons of any type matters very little in the big picture.
 
One rifle can't do it all

The problem is not with the rifle or the ammo.

The problem is the military thinking that one rifle/ammo combo can do it all. I’m sure this makes sense to the logistics guys but it ignores the fact that sometimes you need a big rifle, sometimes you need a pistol, and sometimes you need a SMG...

whatever,
LG Roy
 
In the end there was a big long rifle with a big bullet. Hez took out a dozen or more Isrealiar M1 tanks with 50 calibers with home made DU sabot rounds last summer.
 
Amateurs argue about strategy and tactics.

Professionals argue about logistics. Who gets where with the most first.

We won WWII because we had a lot more of practically everything. Men, Fuel, trucks, weapons, planes, trucks, ships, trucks, tanks, guns, trucks etc........

The American advantage is shear firepower from every dimension. That is why Urban combat puts a lot of strain on our troops. In the up close world of the present terrorist fight, we lose a lot of our fire power advantage.

That is often compounded by the rules of engagement that restrict weapons that our grunts can call on and or deploy. And further compounded by the weapon that snuffy must rely on MUCH MORE, his rifle with an anemic round for house to house combat.

The largest single critical need for Germany, Italy and Japan by the way was OIL!

Go figure.

Fred
 
+1 on the largest single need for the Axis war machine being oil. A good book on the subject of oil is The Prize by Daniel Yergin. At the end of WWII the Germans were hitching horses to trucks (so much for the horseless carriage) and the Japanese were trying to synthesize avgas from pine roots. They were totally crippled in terms of motorized warfare. In fact, the Germans produced more aircraft in 1944 than in 1939, despite "strategic" bombing. They just didn't have the fuel to properly train pilots or mount combat missions.
 
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