Let's talk .380 Auto again generally, and the Shield EZ specifically

[MrChicken]

I spent a lot of time at the gun counter and teaching on the range and saw the need for this pistol 10+ years ago. Plenty of people who can't rack the slide on a 9mm and either can't or won't develop that ability going forward. The usual thought was to try to get them to use a 38sp revolver. Two problems there were trigger pull weight and recoil. If you tried a light weight revolver, the recoil beat them up and heavier revolvers would sometimes just be too much weight or size for them. Most 380's were too small and light with harsh recoil and a slide that was too difficult to rack. Small pistols meant small controls as well. Being weak doesn't universally mean small, full grown adults through age, illness or injury can have reduced strength and dexterity.
In classes I spent a lot of time loading magazines for students, the EZ magazine solves most of that problem too.
I think our range would have sold the EZ easily (pun). It's big enough to get a good grip, light enough to handle easily yet heavy enough to tame recoil and very very easy to operate.

 

[Paul7]

Every round, and platform that uses it, is a compromise of some sort. For personal defense, we all seem to want the power of 44mag, but without over-penetration, the recoil of a .22 short, in a package concealable in a speedo. Oh, and at least a 10 round capacity....but physics won't deliver that, so we make a compromise. For many, myself included, .380 offers the least acceptable power, in the largest acceptable package for everyday carry. Recoil, shootability and capacity are functions of what seem to be the two biggest qualifiers for a concealed carry weapon, power and size. Is .380 enough? Yeah, I think for civilian self defense, the round has over a 100 year track record of being an effective round. Is it optimal? No, not in terms of terminal ballistics, but it comes in a package small enough to always be with me...which is a big deal. I can carry my TCP 100% of the time.
I carry Hornady's Critical Defense, and I practice with my carry gun. Really, any examination of the effectiveness of a carry round should include how well and quickly you can put those rounds on target, and how automatic that is. Two rounds of 380 in the center mass of an attacker is most likely leathal, and will stop the vast majority of people looking to do you harm.

Exactly, I've never heard of hits in the right place with a .380 not working. Remember this round is roughly equivalent to the .38 Special.

 

[WYO]

It's the rough equivalent of Wild Bill Hickok's .36 Navies, in a much more convenient package.

 

[DPris]

There are two problems with "the right place":
One is defining what the right place is.
The other is hitting the right place.
Denis

 

[DannyLandrum]

Thanks for all the input - such a tough call. I think I'll refrain for now - it's such a big hit that likely they will keep making them for years to come.

"let’s face it, absolutely no one is getting any younger and I figured I may as well get my old age pistol now before they suddenly decide to stop producing them."

Yes, +1 - that will be my thinking, at some point down the road in a few years, toward the end of their production cycle. Good point.

 

[DannyLandrum]

"I wonder why they chose that method to do that."

Women tend to like the idea of "the more safeties, the better" (thoughts of kids around and all). It's designed to sell to women. There you go.

Me, I like it for the same reason I like other grip safeties - what's not to like about a safety that always disengages without thinking; without any additional step?

 

[DannyLandrum]

One point of clarification / correction to my original post:

The scalloping of Gen 2s such as this EZ is NOT directly adjacent to the "ears" to help grab to cock it. Thus, they do not work in synergistic conjunction, but rather it's an either-or proposition, being about an inch apart. However, they are still two bullet points, because it simply gives you two places to grab, to suit your own particularly cocking style better - for example, I naturally put my thumb and finder where the scallops are, not back where the ears are. It would have been neat if they had been directly adjacent, giving you a full 3/16" or more, per side, of combined depth to dig in and rack (for the very very feeble).

 

[murf]

in regard to your ammo question:

there are a number of "paul harrell" videos on the 380 acp ammo for self defense question.

luck,

murf

 

[DannyLandrum]

Roger that. Little known fact: Chuck Norris talked back to Paul Harrell once...... ONCE!

 

[DPris]

The video I place the most credence in is actual news crew footage of a hostage incident many years ago that a couple of our guys were involved in at the end, along with several officers from other jurisdictions.

Never aired, somebody in the investigating team at our PD obtained a copy & showed it during the next quarterly training session.

Guy had kidnapped ex-girlfriend at church in a town about 50 miles north, hijacked a car, led a pursuit down the freeway till he rolled the vehicle on an off-ramp on our border.

Immediately surrounded by multiple agencies, he held a stand-off with her as hostage, both standing outside the Bronco laying on its side.
He had a .380.

Negotiations ensued, but once he decided he was not going to walk away from this one, he fired one shot from less than 2 feet away, directly into the girl's chest.

The news footage showed all this very clearly, along with her standing there for a couple seconds before running around to the other side of the Bronco and sitting down against it.

Once there was a clear shot, there were many clear shots taken.
The girl easily survived her wound, the guy did not survive any of his.

I will never consider a .380 to be truly adequate, but I do have a pair of Smith Bodyguards that occasionally get pocket-carried when a "real" gun isn't feasible.

The problem with the penetration thing is that it's no magical guarantee, and the problem with "the right spot" is that it's either a cranial from the nose up, or a central nervous system (spine), and those are not as easy as you might think to hit in a dynamic stressful situation.

A parenthetical note re the public:
The end of the pursuit & the standoff that followed drew a crowd of spectators from nearby office buildings.
After it was all over & investigating officers were canvassing for witness statements, before they knew of the news footage, they were met with a slew of angry "Why did you guys have to shoot him? He wasn't shooting at you! You didn't even give him a CHANCE!"
Denis

 

[Walkalong]

Depends on where the bullet goes.

That said, more power is always better.

That said, I have carried a .22 Mag, a .32 ACP, a .380, a 9MM, and a .45 ACP. (Not all at the same time )

Having something is better than nothing, and lets hope situational awareness keeps us out of, or helps us manage, bad situations. If you get surprised, you are probably dead. And then shot placement, it's all about shot placement, just ask ER nurses/doctors.

 

[Kendahl]

Several years ago, ShootingTheBull410 tested many .380 ACP cartridges against the FBI specification of 12" to 18" penetration in ballistic gelatin. He liked anything that fired Hornady's XTP bullet with Federal Hydra-Shok as a second choice. Here is a link to the video with his conclusions:


Adequate, but not excessive, penetration is critical. Expansion is a nice bonus. 9 mm's advantage over .380 is that it has enough energy to do both.

Carry the biggest gun you can conceal in the most powerful caliber you can shoot well. Sometimes, that's a Ruger LCP, Keltec P-3AT or a Kahr P380.

 

[DPris]

No, it is NOT all about shot placement.
I've told you the story about the officer in the next jurisdiction shot through the heart at 3 feet with a .38 who chased his killer quite some distance before collapsing.
He was dead as soon as he was shot, but he didn't know it & kept on going.

You CANNOT COUNT ON SHOT PLACEMENT ENTIRELY TO SAVE THE DAY.
An effective bullet is a major component.
Effective is a combination of weight, momentum, and construction.

As I said previously, you can ONLY count on immediate cessation of aggression if you achieve a cranial impact or a central nervous system (spinal column) hit.
Those can be very difficult to strike in a dynamic stressful situation.

And I don't need to ask ER people.
I used to see shootings for myself.
Denis

 

[Walkalong]

CANNOT COUNT ON SHOT PLACEMENT ENTIRELY TO SAVE THE DAY.

No need to yell, and I did not say that. I said it whether it stops someone or not is all about shot placement. If that shot in the chest had entered her heart or hit the aorta, she dies. It obviously did not hit anything critical. People live sometimes after being shot with a.44 Mag and die sometimes when being hit by a .22. Depends on what it hits inside.

As I said previously, you can ONLY count on immediate cessation of aggression if you achieve a cranial impact or a central nervous system (spinal column) hit.
Those can be very difficult to strike in a dynamic stressful situation.

And I don't need to ask ER people.
I used to see shootings for myself.

I see we agree.

 

[DPris]

I AM NOT SHOUTING!!!!!!!!!
I AM BEING BOLDLY ASSERTIVE!!!!!!!!
Denis ( )

 

[Walkalong]

Ok.

 

[DPris]

Glad we got that worked out.

Denis

 

[murf]

Roger that. Little known fact: Chuck Norris talked back to Paul Harrell once...... ONCE!

i believe that!

don't fall for all this "gloom and doom" about the 380 auto. it is more than adequate for self defense.

micheal platt survived a "fatal" hit to his chest from a 9mm round before he killed two and wounded five fbi agents during the 1986 miami shootout. there are no totally effective rounds.

luck,

murf

 

[WYO]

Carry the biggest gun you can conceal in the most powerful caliber you can shoot well.

For me it goes something like this: Carry the biggest gun you can properly conceal in the most powerful caliber you can shoot well under realistic time constraints involving a magazine dump against one target or when engaging multiple targets such as a plate rack or an El Presidente. That is where the analysis starts getting blurry for me in regards to caliber. I see a lot of shooters who can hit the target if they have all the time in the world, but they would lose in a real gunfight, especially if multiple assailants are involved. That means they either need to spend a lot more time at the range or they need to step down some in noise/blast/recoil. The oft-recited gun forum wisdom about choosing the 9mm gun because it is just about the same size as the .380 gun fails those people.

 

[Riomouse911]

The 380 ACP is excessively powerful based on the number of times James Bond saved the ENTIRE WORLD with a 32 Auto...

And yet he started saving it with a Beretta .25 with a “skeleton grip” carried in a chamois holster...

 

[TreeDoc]

380 would be fine by me, but 9mm is cheaper to practice with and I don't reload.

 

[greg_r]

My 2 cents

First, the why 380 when I can have a 9mm the same size crowd. They either get it, or the concept goes completely over their head. All things equal, the 380 is easier to operate and has lower recoil. This means a lot to people who might be sick or weak. My late father, who died of bone cancer could not rack the slide of the KAHRS or Shields preferred by myself and siblings, nor could he tolerate the recoil of the 40 S&W that we carry due to his weakened state and brittle bones. He could however operate the Walther PK380 and Sig Sauer 238. His favorites however were the Ruger SR22 and a older Taurus pre-lock Model 85 38 special. It should be noted that he had difficulties using the Taurus as a double action, but he could cock the hammer and shoot it well.

As to the 380 cartridge. I do like it and own several. I prefer something with a larger cross section, but I do not feel defenseless with a 380. As has been demonstrated earlier in this thread, it’s what the bullet hits that counts. Av22vshort in the right spot will likely have a better effect than a 44 Magnum in the wrong spot. And while I want penetration and expansion, penetration trumps expansion almost every time.

Now with that out of the way, to the subject st hand, the Shield 380 EZ.

IMHO the Shield and KAHR are the two best handguns available for social work. I carried a 40 Shield for a long time. An early model when they were available with a safety only chambered in 40 S&W. I liked it a lot with two caveats. First, I preferred the extended magazine simply because I have large hands and it felt better to me. Second, I am of the opinion that a safety has no place on a defensive handgun. I believe in Murphy’s law and a safety is just something else that Murphy can mess with. I choose to ignore the safety. In the case of my 40 Shield, the safety was its only detractor as I had it enengage itself several times while carrying. When the Shield became available sans the safety, I went to the LGS to trade mine for a safety less one. I did however leave with a KAHR and have been carrying it since.

The Shield 380 EZ is possibly the best of the larger 380’s. I like the hammer and hingeless trigger. The slide is very easy to rack. I like the single action trigger that in my opinion puts it heads and shoulders over its biggest competition, the DA/SA Walther PK380. The magazines are easy to load. I am lukewarm about the grip safety. And I like the larger easier to operate safety on the safety equipped model. I do believe that had the S&W Shield 380 EZ been available when Dad was alive, it very well may have been his favorite.

I spent a few hours with the Shield 380 EZ one Saturday at the range. I found it very easy to operate and accurate at 7 and 15 yards. I had no issues with the grip safety, although it is hinged differently than the 1911 and looks a bit wonky to me. It is engaged by the web of the hand, not the meat of the palm. There have been reports of a dead trigger due to the grip safety not being engaged. Not a problem I had, but I can see how it could happen.

One problem I did have. A couple of times I had a dead trigger due to my inadvertently engaging the safety while firing the 380 EZ. A downfall to the larger, easier to operate safety I guess. I have large hands and a high grip which caused the issue, it likely would not be a problem to other shooters. It is a moot point to me anyways, as if I were to buy a S&W 380 EZ, and I just might, it would be the safety-less version.

You could do a lot worse than the S&W 380 EZ, but I personally don’t think you could do much better.