Let's talk bullets...

[Nolo]

I'm sure we've all seen countless "6.8 SPC vs. 6.5 Grendel" threads, so I'm not going to start one of those (God willing).
Instead, I wanted to know which bullet is more effective, the 115-grain Hornady OTM or the 123-grain Lapua Scenar? By more effective, I mean is quicker to incapacitate a deer at 100 yards.
I've heard that the 115 .277 bullet will "drop hogs like an ax", and I've seen very impressive results from Lapua Scenar in other calibers (.308, I think).
So I was wondering, which is better?

 

[CBS220]

Would you rather be hit by a truck, or an SUV?

Because that's what this boils down to.

It's shot placement and preference.

 

[MHBushmaster]

As stated above, shot placement is king whether it be 6.5, 6.8, 7.62x51, or .22lr.
All the choices you listed will perform if you put the bullet where it needs to go

That being said, the 6.5 has an advantage at longer ranges due to its better Ballistic Coefficient as compared to the 6.8...but at 100 yards, this is a moot point.

 

[Nolo]

Well, okay, let me pose a different question then:
Do the two bullets have an approximately equal increase in effectiveness over the 5.56? And how do they compare to the 123-grain .311 and 147-grain .308 caliber bullets?

 

[browningguy]

The 123 gr. Lapua has a higher sectional density that the AK/SKS round, and I believe higher than the 147 gr. .308. All other things being equal that means they should penetrate better.

 

[Zangetsu]

Don't forget that the 123gr Lapua is also a longer bullet, which promotes yawing and all that fun stuff. However, that's not nearly as important as shot placement

 

[iamkris]

Anyone who make definitive statements of "stopping power" (like "it always drops them like a hammer") in a hunting situation has either never actually fired a bullet into living tissue or has very limited hunting experience.

I've shot a small buck at 35 yards with a 1 oz 12 ga lead slug...it took out both lungs and the top of the heart...and the buck still ran for 100 yards.

I've shot a doe at 75 yards with a large caliber rifle and it only hit 1 lung...and she dropped like a rock and kicked a few times.

Does that mean slugs aren't effective? Hardly.

The only gel testing I found is shown below...not apples to apples because they are different impact distances (e.g., 3 meters is crazy...OF COURSE the bullet it going to blow up) In general, I like the higher SD a bit better (then again, I tend to fault towards penetration for hunting) and the long bullet does have a reputation for yawing...but frankly both are an improvement over 5.56 for hunting...and both are good performance in general. And again, don't let anyone make absolutes when it comes to bullet performance.


Here's ballistic gelatin testing of the 6.5 mm 123 gr SMK...not the Scenar but fairly close.

123 Sierra MatchKing

The 123 SMK penetrated 2.25" before yawing and fragmenting. The Alexander Arms Tactical 14.5 carbine was used in the photos shown here. Range: 50 yards. Impact velocity: 2385 fps. (Velocity from 24" test barrel was 2650 fps @ 49,500 psi.)

Here's the 6.8mm 115 OTM compared to 5.56

 

[Nolo]

Out of curiosity, why do the 6.8 tests say "fired out of loaded AK 47 mag"?

 

[iamkris]

...no idea...weird wording. Assuming it was a converted AKM or possibly one of those modular ARs?

 

[Nolo]

Okay, I was just guessing you knew.

 

[iamkris]

EDIT, EDIT -- I actually think they were doing penetration tests through a chest rig with loaded AK mags in it...no wonder the 5.56 rounds blew up so fast.

Here's a "clean" gel test pic...penetration was still around 12"

 

[Nolo]

Oh, okay.
That made me wonder...
What range is that at? The SMK test says 50 yds.

 

[iamkris]

Wish I knew...the 6.5 mm Grendel testing was very scientific with all the test parameters noted. The 6.8 SPC stuff I found just threw up a bunch of pictures without any boundary conditions.

Maybe someone else has some better data than this...all I could come up with on short notice.

Gotta say...I like the way that 123 gr SMK performed...great long range accuracy, decent barrier penetration, early yaw cycle, great overall penetration.

 

[iamkris]

Just found the source of the 6.5 Grendel testing...brassfetcher.com (I think one the forum members)

Unfortunately he doesn't test the 6.8 mm 115 OTM.

Neither the 7.62x51mm nor the 7.62x39mm used the FMJ loads...too bad.

 

[Nolo]

Does the Boxo'Truth have anything on this?

 

[35 Whelen]

I'm sure we've all seen countless "6.8 SPC vs. 6.5 Grendel" threads, so I'm not going to start one of those (God willing).
Instead, I wanted to know which bullet is more effective, the 115-grain Hornady OTM or the 123-grain Lapua Scenar? By more effective, I mean is quicker to incapacitate a deer at 100 yards.
I've heard that the 115 .277 bullet will "drop hogs like an ax", and I've seen very impressive results from Lapua Scenar in other calibers (.308, I think).
So I was wondering, which is better?

I say neither. If I'm not mistaken, both bullets in question are hollow point target bullets. They're not designed or built with hunting in mind. And since neither cartridge was designed from a hunting standpoint, hunting ammuntion may be hard to find. I did notice though that Remington loads in the 6.8 SPC a 115 gr. Premier Core-Lokt Ultra. I bet it'd just peachy for deer.
The gelatin tests are pretty and quite relative....if you're hunting blocks of gelatin. But what happens when one of those sleek little hollow points hits wet hide, a rib, a shoulder bone, a combination of these, or in the case of a hog, all of the above, plus tough, thick hide and gristle?
For a fraction of the cost of one those expensive plastic black guns, you can buy a bolt rifle chambered for a .270, 308, 30-06 et al, that is infinitely more capable of taking any animal in the continental U.S., and ammunition that is loaded for hunting and readily available.
Just my 2¢....

 

[R.W.Dale]

For a fraction of the cost of one those expensive plastic black guns, you can buy a bolt rifle chambered for a .270, 308, 30-06 et al, that is infinitely more capable of taking any animal in the continental U.S., and ammunition that is loaded for hunting and readily available.
Just my 2¢....

What a boring world it would be if all trucks had 6cyl engines, all beer was Bush, all women were a B cup and all huntin guns were a remchester 30-06

No thank you!

 

[Nolo]

I was pretty much only using a deer as a medium, I suppose I shouldn't have.
I am looking mostly at effectiveness against human targets, from military-style rifles. i.e., full autos.
Not that I am privileged to own such a beast, but I can dream, and I can design.

 

[shadowalker]

Against humans it is an improvement, it fires a wider and heavier bullet and develops more momentum to greater terminal effect. You might google for terminal ballistics, that will yield several calculations that will help you compare theoretical performance of calibers / loads.

The 6.8 SPC is a lightweight 270, it fires the same diameter bullet but the 6.8 has a much lower velocity and is limited in bullet weight. It is intended to have slightly better ballistics than 7.62x39.

As an example, Hodgdon shows the 6.8 SPC can achieve around 2500 FPS with a 115 grain projectile, that yields 1595 ft/lb of energy and a momentum of: 41

.223 63 grain at 3050 fps yields 1301 ft/lb of energy and a momentum of 27.45.

.308 150 grain bullet at 2750 fps yields 2518 ft/lb of energy and a momentum of 58. This assumes a regular length barrel of 22-24 inches. Even with a 16 inch barrel such as on the AP4 velocity should be around 2600 fps yielding 2251 ft/lb of energy and a momentum of 55.71.

Energy isn't significantly different between the 223 and 6.8 SPC but momentum shows the 6.8 SPC would probably have significantly better penetration due to increased bullet weight.

I was considering a 6.8 SPC because I wanted increased ballistic performance but also long range performance. In my case I went with a DPMS LR-308 because it has a wider bullet selection (110 to ~ 180 grains) and also better long range performance than the 6.8 SPC. I might have to get more than one, I have the standard LR-308 but the AP4 is very tempting as well.

I don't see the 6.8 SPC offering anything the .308 doesn't, for lower recoil you can use 110 grain loads such as Hornady's TAP, not give up the ability for longer range shooting and have far greater ammunition availability both now and in the future.

 

[wcb]

I'm assuming you're talking personal protection bullets....

I'm sold, hands down on Speer Gold Dots. If you surf the web, you'll find article after article on how effective the Gold Dot is. I found an article once where Speer challenged any police department in the Country to bring their bullets to Speer and Speer wold provide Gold Dots to compare their usual with; every police department went home with Gold Dots instead of their usual.

There's a fine line between bullet expansion and penetration and God Dots are recognized as the best balance out there. Hornady came out with their XTP's, which sure look mean, to go up against the Gold Dots but too often they over penetrate.

Here's a site that has a ton of good reading on ballistic results and some very surprising information on hand gun bullets and how hard it is to kill with them (it's an FBI report).

http://firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm the site.

http://firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/ammodata.htm performance data

http://firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm the FBI report

 

[Nolo]

You do realize we're talking about rifles here, right?

 

[35 Whelen]

What a boring world it would be if all trucks had 6cyl engines, all beer was Bush, all women were a B cup and all huntin guns were a remchester 30-06

Find some other way to humor yourself besides hunting with cartridges/bullets of questionable effectiveness.

What a boring world it would be if all the benches at the range were filled with guys wearing their caps backwards, dark shades, black cargo pants, going BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM with their ARK-4715 mounted with a 6-24X scope,(you need one of those on the 50 yard range, ya know) a bayonet, a flash hider, a flash light, a grenade launcher, an infrared laser sighting device, spare 75 round drum magazines, and leaving heaps of steel casings on the ground around the shooting bench...oh wait....that already happens.....

 

[rangerruck]

.... " A REMCHESTER 30.06..." that's too funny!!

 

[Nolo]

Okay guys, if you're not going to try and answer the question, then you really don't have business posting. And if you're going to try and just get me to settle on .30000 Winchester Ultra Super Short Mega Magnum Max Exxxtreme, then you're not going to get anywhere, and it may also be in your best interests to refrain from posting.
Otherwise, you're just cluttering the server.
I love .30-06, I think it's one of the best cartridges in the world, and I've based several of my designs off of the proportions of it and it's midget offspring, the 7.62x51.
Which is exactly why I'm not discussing it here. I've already found out it's a great cartridge, and the Garand one of the best guns ever made.
But I'm not talking about the '06 or the Garand. So if your comment is not related to the 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel, and/or their relationship to other standard assault rifle/carbine cartridges in use today, then please refrain.

 

[Deer Hunter]

Whelen,

"questionable effectiveness"?

then, as if slapping "shot placement" in the face and kinda hurting the following argument....

What a boring world it would be if all the benches at the range were filled with guys wearing their caps backwards, dark shades, black cargo pants, going BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM with their ARK-4715 mounted with a 6-24X scope,(you need one of those on the 50 yard range, ya know) a bayonet, a flash hider, a flash light, a grenade launcher, an infrared laser sighting device, spare 75 round drum magazines, and leaving heaps of steel casings on the ground around the shooting bench...oh wait....that already happens.....

Shooters today are not what they were fifty years ago, get over it. Besides, it's where you place the bullet. "questionable effectiveness" means what, exactly? A .50 BMG to the foot would really hurt your basketball game, but a .22 LR to the head will put you on that great bench in the sky in a heartbeat.

And Nolo,

The 6.5 has better bullet selections as well as better long-range ballistics, but then again so does the 7.62x51 if we're comparing them against the .223. Most of these quests to find a replacement to the .223 would go away if we simply kept the barrel length of the .223 caliber rifles at a minimum of 16 inches. But I will agree, both the 6.8 and the 6.5 look nice. I just can't see a dicernable difference if we placed them in service en masse than if we stuck with our .223 rifles.