Let's try this again: employing a NAA .22 Mag Mini Revolver for Self-Defense.

[B yond]

There were a few applicable answers given in the last thread. There was also a whole lot of off-topic bickering about irrelevant issues. That nonsense got my thread locked before my thirst for knowledge was satisfied, so I've started this one to spark the meaningful conversation I was trying to get out of the last one. That, and I'm trying to restore my faith in THR as a constructive place to share ideas and learn from the experience of others.

I'm hearing (reading) a lot of good points. While I agree that it's not best to target a specific organ instead of aiming center of mass, the lower abdomen (everything between the bottom of the ribcage and the pelvis) seems like a pretty darn good point of aim for a .22 mag. There are plenty of soft organs there that would hurt like hell to get shot in (at the very least). The size of the target area seems to make it a good choice for engagement at a distance (by distance I mean 7-15 yards) with a NAA. I think that statement would be true from front or rear, however I'm not so sure it would work from the side, where the pelvis and ribs are closer together and arms may be in the way.

I'm wondering if the head/face/eyes are a good target for up-close engagement. I'm sure they'd be great targets with a larger caliber, but I'm wondering if a .22mag would have enough energy behind it to pierce the skull when fired from such a short barrel. I'm sure it would hurt either way, but I don't know if the pain of a .22 bouncing off a skull would be worse than the pain of a .22 piercing a kidney, the stomach, intestines, or liver. I'm not saying it wouldn't, I just don't know (thankfully). I wonder if the impact of the bullet against the skull or the muzzle blast of a very close shot could cause unconsciousness...

The neck seems like a good target for up-close engagement. My logic here is that piercing the carotid arteries would cause a rapid loss of blood pressure and instantly decrease blood flow to the brain, which I would expect to cause unconsciousness. Carotids being major arteries under pressure, I think even a .22 caliber hole would have a hard time clotting/closing due to the volume of blood passing through it.

Also, does anyone have any references, besides the ones already mentioned, where someone used a NAA in self defense? I'd be interested whether it was a successful attempt at SD or not.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

B yond, do 50 jumping jacks and see how quickly you can draw, fire, and hit a specific target on a silhouette at 5 yards with your NAA mini .22 mag. I think that you will find that without a goodly amount of practice (which the little revolvers are not great for because of the hassle of reloading), hitting anything smaller than a basket ball-sized area with any sort of consistency and speed can be very difficult.

The jumping jacks are just to get your heart pumping.

Sure, a lot of us can consistently hit a 5" circle at 5 yards, slow firing, getting a good grip, sighting however we like, but that isn't anything like trying to whip out your Mini from a pocket, cock the hammer, aim and hit quickly.

Inside of 1 yard, you should be able to hit about anything you want to hit and do so without actually aiming as it is just point shooting at that distance. Retention shooting can be a little weird because the small grip makes for difficult alignment. The difficulty in proper hold and aiming is why a lot of folks suggest this gun for contact or near contact shooting.

Who knows? Maybe you will be one of the folks really good at it. I am not and I do practice with mine on a regular basis (monthly) and have 1800-2000 rounds through mine. It is carried as a backpocket gun in its own pocket holster. I practice drawing from there and doing my normal shooting drills as best as can be done with a single action revolver including shooting on the move and weakhand shooting. If I have to shoot weakhand, it really needs to be a contact shot or within 1 yard.

And don't even think about fanning the NAA mini for rapid fire!

I find it odd about this notion of shooting a person where it hurts. I can assure you that being shot anywhere can hurt, but not everyone will feel pain. As for shooting them in the pelvis, I am not sure what you expect to get from that. I certainly would not count on a lower velocity round (~700-1000 fps) doing much in the way of structural damage unless you get really lucky and hit the femoral neck, ball, or acetabulum and even then the damage may not be substantial or debilitating.

 

[David E]

I'm wondering if a .22mag would have enough energy behind it to pierce the skull when fired from such a short barrel.

I never said anything about penetrating the skull. I said "Face and neck shots," identifying the eyes and nose aresa specifically.

The eyes are easily penetrable, as is the nose/nasal cavity.

Small targets? Absolutely, but that's why you practice.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

So you have a practice dummy you practice shoving the NAA mini into its eyes? Well-practiced guys have trouble hitting the T zone on a moving head with full-sized guns, good sights, and a 2 handed grip. I really don't see the T zone as a practical aimpoint for a NAA mini, not unless you are okay with missing it because short of contact shots, most people aren't going to hit the eyes or nose on a fighting, moving, combative target with such a little gun that has such crappy sights, grip, and trigger.

 

[TimM]

I'm just thinking that I sure wouldn't enjoy being shot in the groin with that little gun.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

IMHO the best POA (point of aim) for any .22 rimfire in a defensive role is the triangle formed by the corners of the eyes and the nose.

Which puts you at a serious disadvantage facing an opponent who only needs a torso hit to put you out of the game.

In my experience, most disasters happen because people plan to have a disaster -- by doing things like choosing to carry a .22 for self-defense when they could just as easily carry a .38 Special, 9mm or .45 ACP.

 

[Cosmoline]

On two occasions when in the company of others, I have used a NAA on varmints of a scaly/toothy nature which presented threats, and both times the reaction was, "I thought you shot it with your finger.

I would have said "I did."

 

[bigfatdave]

OK ... I just had to go out and buy one. I've been wanting one for a while as a toy, and this thread (and some others like it) put me over the edge. My LGS had a mag/LR model with the folding grip/holster for a good price, so I gave it a home, picked up some .22mag ammo, and headed off to the range. A rudimentary cleaning later and I was ready to fire the little popgun. (it took a bit to hold it steady in my sasquatch hands, I kept laughing). I suppose I am now a revolver owner, was the NAA a good choice for first revolver? Everyone says to start with a twenty-two, so I done good, right?

For those who are knocking the NAA, it is a real gun, and with a tiny 1.625" barrel, it will keep shots on a small silhouette at 15 yards just fine once you get used to it. I ended up at the 15 yard line for a while, because MrsBFD was shooting her Ruger 22, and I was able to do surprisingly well with the little thing. I shot .22 CB shorts, HV shorts, CB LR, SV LR, and some mini-mags just fine, all to about the same POA with the primitive sights. I had a few failures with the cheapo Remington .22mag ammo I picked up, but I'm not about to blame the gun, that stuff looked like it had been on the shelf for a LONG time, and it all fired with a second hammer drop (on the same spot, no less ... generally I have to rotate rimfire rounds to re-attempt firing).
Precision with offhand shooting was about what you'd expect, the little gun shoots patterns, not groups. Shooting out an assailant's navel isn't going to happen, but head shots at 5 yards aren't impossible under range conditions. Under stress I wouldn't go for anything fancier than "center mass or a bit low".
Sadly, I didn't have time to try out the little thing on any water jugs or other reactive targets, I'll have to remember to bring the outdoor range kit next time.

My impressions after actually firing the thing:

• It really would let you follow Rule#1 (bring a gun) all the time. You may need to fire before anyone realizes you really are armed though.
• Even in MrsBFD's relatively petite hands, the gun is barely noticeable. Zero intimidation value until fired.
• I wouldn't make it a primary carry very often. On the other hand, I'm not a BUG guy, one reliable pistol and a reload are generally plenty.
• I certainly wouldn't want to get into a gunfight with it, this thing is for a fighting retreat or to be used as a "get off me!" gun.
• It is ridiculously concealable, although I think a pocket holster and the rubberized grip from the Pug model would be better than the folding holster/grip gadget. I may attempt some modification of the holster grip once I have a spare handy. I do not like the lack of a trigger guard, so I may try to work something on there somehow.
• .22mag is LOUD! Feeling a concussion from such a tiny gun makes it hard to keep it on target ... too much laughing!
• The NAA cycled smoothly right out of the box, and functioned quite well. Besides the ammo-related issues the only problem was with getting spent cases out of the cylinder - some were in there pretty tight and almost needed more than the cylinder pin to pop out. I may keep a small brass punch in the NAA box for that purpose in the future.

 

[B yond]

>sigh<

This thread is about how to get the most out of the NAA mini for SD purposes. It is NOT about whether or not it is a good choice for a SD gun. It is NOT about whether or not you can conceal a better choice just as easily.

If you just want to rant about what a bad choice for SD the NAA is and/or how you could just as easily conceal a better choice, David E has been kind enough to start a separate thread for that purpose here.

If you don't have something constructive and on-topic to add to the conversation, kindly don't post.

Please don't derail my thread.

-----------------------------------------------

bigfatdave, did your NAA come with the bird's head grip too, or was it just the holster grip? I'm wondering if the holster grip has the same grip angle as the bird's head. Also, what did you think about the pocket clip on it? I've only seen the holster grip in pictures and wondered if that clip would break off easily. Does it seem sturdy and do you think it would stand up to regular use? Is the grip any wider than the cylinder?

Does anyone have any data on how much force is necessary to penetrate the average human skull?

 

[TheProf]

In keeping with the OP's question....

One way to make this gun (.22 NAA) more effective is to carry two of them...one in each front pocket.

Second, choose the .22mag model instead of .22lr.

Third, choose the shorter barrel model. (I don't know how, but I actually bent my longer barrel .22mag NAA. The bent on the barrel is hardly noticeable, but it started to interfere with the hammer/cylinder mechanism.)

In terms of tactics, practice blocking with left hand (or pushing away with left hand) and drawing & firing with your right hand (assuming that you are right handed). Your body should be bladed at a 45 degree angle...left hand lead.

Do the above drill, but this time practice moving to right (that is glide stepping to your right) and then drawing & firing the weapon.

The key is to coordinate blocking(or shoving) hand, evasive footwork, and weapon access.

And it goes without saying...you can't do the above drills in your average shooting range. Practice with weapon unloaded. (By the way, you can dry fire your .22mag NAA safely by removing the cylinder.)

P.S. I used back pocket carry... And the barrel is slightly bent to the right. it is almost imperceptible (so..pictures wont do justice to it). But when I half-cock the pistol...from that half cock position, I can no longer pull the hammer back. I have to disassemble it to get it back to normal hammer down position. Now, mind you...that there is no really any reason to half-cock the pistol. I was just toying with its mechanism...and to my surprise, i realized that it gets stuck in the half-cock position. and on closer inspection..realized that the barrel was bent. So in terms of tactics, use front pocket carry.

 

[B yond]

(I don't know how, but I actually bent my longer barrel .22mag NAA. The bent on the barrel is hardly noticeable, but it started to interfere with the hammer/cylinder mechanism.)

Do you have any pics? Was the bend to one side or up/down? Did you carry it in your back pocket and sit on it perhaps?

Knowing how easily the barrel can be bent could affect the ways this little gun is carried.

 

[bigfatdave]

bigfatdave, did your NAA come with the bird's head grip too, or was it just the holster grip?1
I'm wondering if the holster grip has the same grip angle as the bird's head.2
Also, what did you think about the pocket clip on it? I've only seen the holster grip in pictures and wondered if that clip would break off easily. Does it seem sturdy and do you think it would stand up to regular use?3
Is the grip any wider than the cylinder?4

1Just the folder grip, I was a little bummed that it didn't include a basic grip. All that was in the case was the gun, a LR cylinder, a manual, an adorable little padlock, and the catalog/NRA/order form.
2I'm not sure about the angle, I can take a picture of the new one on a common background if you like, to compare to yours.
3The clip seems a bit flimsy, but is probably as good as polymer clips on knives I've used and abused in the past. I'd probably drop the whole thing into a pocket anyway. The clip on mine is set up for a left-hand pocket, which is good (BUG position), but I have big enough pockets to open it up inside the pocket and it would appear that I'm looking for keys.
4The grip is slightly thinner than the cylinder except at the clip.

Probably I'll be ordering a grip similar to the one on the Pug, I didn't like the holster grip's front surface and contour much for actual shooting. The pebbled medium-sized pug grip and a pocket holster of some kind should do a much better job.
Does yours have a rear sight? Mine just has the front sight, so I lined up the barrel's top so it is in line with my eye and the target. I was keeping it on the silhouette at 15 yards, and in the center-mass scoring rings at 10, after I figured out what to sight with.

 

[B yond]

bigfatdave,

A photo will not be necessary, there are plenty on the web for me to compare. Thanks anyway.

I think the raised rear of the top strap, where the hammer rests, is supposed to be the rear sight. I've hear fo people filing down the front sight until they're on target using that and the rear "sights" and having good results. That's my someday plan.

I'm a little cautious of the oversized grips, as I don't think my fingers would line up with the finger grooves. I've read that the groove on the rubber black widow grip is easily removed though.

As is with the bird's head I can only get one finger around the grip. Luckily my middle finger is strong evil so I can still maintain a decent hold on it. Plus, I've found that the bird's head grip lines up perfectly with the last joint in my middle finger so the weapon indexes perfectly. I'm able to get the exact same grip on it each time I hold it.

 

[bigfatdave]

Why is the concept of "what would YOU do if this was the only tool you had when you needed a pistol" so difficult to understand?
If we really cared about having the right gun all the time, we'd be toting a .50AE Desert Eagle, or a .454 Casull revolver everywhere we go. Or we'd always have a 12 gauge loaded up with incendiary rounds hidden in a gym bag.
But we don't ... we compromise as needed. Some of us are hampered by asinine gun laws/restrictions and are working with what is legal to purchase. Apparently CA limits a CC permit to 3 handguns, and .45/.380/.22mag isn't too bad of a selection to cover all occasions. Everyone who bothered to actually read the thread should know that the NAA isn't everyday primary weapon, and that the OP has more potent pistols available.

B yond, there is an in-between grip size that the Pug has on it.
This page has the various grips to fit the NAA magnum models - I really liked the one on the Pug in the shop, it is described on that page as "Bird's Head Style, Pebbled"
I seem to be doing OK with sighting along the top of the frame/barrel, so I'll pass on filing for now. I might upgrade to a model with sights sometime in the future, the thing grew on me fast, I may need a copy of "the Earl" to be a companion to my Henry .22 levergun.

I just figured out that the holster grip clip can change sides, if that matters to you, B yond

 

[B yond]

That's a nice looking grip. Did it seem secure on the model you saw at your LGS (I only ask because it's a slip-on)?

As much as I like the grip I have, it isn't the most comfortable after more than a couple of shots. That rubber might help, and so it may very well be my next firearms-related purchase.

 

[bigfatdave]

It seemed very secure on there, I actually tried to get it off to see what was underneath, and couldn't do it discreetly.
Now I can't get the folding grip off either, I'll have to pick up the proper size allen keys in the morning, as I seem to have about a dozen keys one sizer too small or large.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

*Sigh*

Do I REALLY need to explain why some posts are missing?

Really?

Really, really?

Geez, guys!

 

[Fred Fuller]

Lay off the thread derailment attempts, folks. Either answer the original question as stated by the OP in a constructive manner (if you have anything to offer), or else don't post. This thread WILL stay on topic and on track. If this is too complicated for you to follow, then S&T is NOT the place for you.

lpl

 

[Fred Fuller]

Reference my earlier comment on the best (IMHO) aiming point for a .22 rimfire handgun in self defense:

If a 22 is to be used for defensive purposes, precise shooting is absolutely essential, since the only successful target is the eye socket of the attacker. - http://myweb.cebridge.net/mkeithr/Jeff/jeff5_2.html

That's not the only place Cooper suggested such a thing, but it's the first one I could find. Anyone in the least familiar with human anatomy knows how thin the skull is at the orbits of the eyes, the nasal passages and the sinus cavities surrounding the nose. These areas are defined by the inverted triangle formed by the brow ridge (at the top) and the bottom of the nose at the upper lip. These areas can be penetrated with relative ease by a .22 rimfire, even when launched from such a short barrel.

Yes, it is a small target. Yes, it is apt to be moving and thus very hard to hit. But if you are going to carry a tiny handgun in a small caliber, then YOU are going to have to make up for the shortcomings of the gun and cartridge. Period.

More from Cooper: "...defensive situations are short-range situations - arm's length, across the kitchen table, across the bedroom. At these distances, a cool hand can hit a ping pong ball with his first shot every time. If the defender confines his targets to the eye sockets, his 22 should certainly suffice to stop the fight." - http://www.dvc.org.uk/jeff/jeff10_14.html

I HAVE carried a .22 rimfire as a defensive pistol, when it was all I had available (a Beretta Jaguar). I have also carried a NAA as a backup. I thought about all this before ever trusting such a small caliber. I practiced a lot. I could generally hit what I shot at- though admittedly, the Beretta was much easier to hit with than the NAA.

As I said earlier, this is just my opinion. Yours may vary...

lpl

 

[David E]

If one is inclined to buy/carry a NAA for actual defense purposes, I highly recommend the .22 magnum version.

First, the grip is enough bigger to matter, so it's easier to hang onto while you manipulate the hammer with one hand or two.

Secondly, it's LOUD ! It sounds like a much larger gun/caliber than it is.

 

[bigfatdave]

I'm pretty sure the OP has a .22mag model, and you are right, the magnum models are a size up from the LR models, and dwarf the .22short model. I don't know about it being visibly larger to an assailant though.
The one I picked up was a .22mag with a LR cylinder as well, I agree, the magnum is a LOT louder.
CCI mini-mags*, which were the hottest .22LR I had were fairly loud indoors, but those cheapo Remington magnum rounds were so loud outdoors that I may be taking double hearing protection along next time. I sure wouldn't want to make a habit of shooting the magnum cylinder indoors! I'
I'll have to pick up some Stingers (or similar) to try out next time.

I wouldn't want to get into a gunfight with the NAA**, but it is enough gun to stop a mugging, and at contact ranges it makes an excellent "get off me!" gun. Of course employing it against an attacker holding you from behind would probably result in being deaf in one ear for a few days.


*(long rifle with a misleading name, for anyone who isn't familiar with them)
**(or anything! But particularly not the NAA)

 

[JMusic]

I have the mag model with the LR cylinder. Its on my hiking belt. I don't know if anyone has tried penetration tests with the shorty, I did and sold it the next day.


Jim

 

[batjka]

JMusic, by "shorty" do you mean .22 short or the one with 1-1/8" short barrel?
Can you share the results of your testing?

 

[B yond]

Does anyone know of any specialty .22mag ammo that's designed to maximize penetration?

There's a company in S. Africa that modified a 5.56 bullet design for a jacketed .22LR. It's nice and pointy. Something like that in .22mag might help penetration.

Lee, thanks for the info about being able to penetrate the skull at the orbits. I think that's an excellent target when close enough to hit it.

What do y'all think about profile shots? Where would be the best place to aim? I'm thinking the neck when close enough to hit it, but what about from farther away?

 

[David E]

I'm pretty sure the OP has a .22mag model,

I'm aware that the OP has a .22 magnum version, but many have suggested the .22 LR version. I have 3 NAA revolvers, the .22 Short, .22 LR and .22 Magnum, all with the short barrel. The magnum is by far the easiest to manipulate, but under stress, that is still expecting a lot.

What do y'all think about profile shots? Where would be the best place to aim? I'm thinking the neck when close enough to hit it, but what about from farther away?

MOST people would be out of luck, as the gun is a very "up close and personal" kind of thing. IE; screw it into the nostril or ear as deep as you can before pulling the trigger.

But SOME people are skilled enough to quickly point shoot and consistently hit a paper plate @ 15 yds with their NAA .22 magnum, so those people would be able to make the required hit on a profile shot.