Leupold terminology questions

[tommer]

Hi, I have two questions about scope terminology and Leupolds in particular. I'm trying to decide whether to get a VX-I or a VX-II.

First, what's the difference between "friction dials" and click-type?

Second, what designates "target knobs?" I thought that it meant that the knobs had markings on them for MOA, yardage, or whatever, but that doesn't seem to be true all the time.

Thanks in advance.

 

[CB900F]

Tommer;

A click type reticle adjustment knob has a detent ball/spring affair that results in an easily felt "click" as the knob is moved. Depending on the manufacturer, each click will denote a specified change in impact point at 100 yards. Better scopes almost always show a superior repeatability in this area. A friction type adjustment is usually considered to be harder to achieve repeatability with.

A target knob allows the shooter to return to a specified "zero" after making adjustments for windage or elevation. These knobs are usually manufactured to tighter tolerances than the standard knobs. They can be handy, but are considered to be far more useful for target shooters than hunters.900F

 

[Wildfire]

Leupold Scope.

Hey There, You will not like the friction turrets. Go with the 1/4" clicks.
Target turrets usually mean tallers than normal and numbered.
And some of them are stiff enough that you don't need to keep that cap on the turret. I carry several guns that I do use or even know where the turret caps are anymore.
The older Leupold VX-II scopes had the friction turrets, the new ones have clicks. I'm sending a SS VX-II back to Leupold to put new turrets on that scope. $95.00 is what they told me on the phone.
Remember with any optics, you get what you pay for. By the way as far as I know all of the VX-I scopes are friction turrets.
And 900F is right the more $$$$ spent on that scope the more repeatable they are. And the closer to what they are supposed to do .
1/4" clicks will be closer to 1/4" then some thing else.

 

[tommer]

Friction adjustments do indeed sound like a bad idea.

I see that the VX-IIs feature click adjustments, but does this mean that they can be adjusted on the fly, or do I still have to remove cheesy screw-on caps and use a coin?

 

[rcmodel]

Believe me, you don't want to adjust your scope "on the fly" while hunting.

Forget all the Dial Twiddling & Focus Fiddling you see in the Sniper movies.

What you want on a hunting rifle is a scope you can zero once and forget about it ever changing again, unless you change loads and re-zero it.

The "cheesy scope caps" are excellent defense against fogging, leaks, dirt, mud & blood in the dials.
On a hunting scope, they are a very good thing!

If you sight it in and learn the trajectory of the ammo you are using, there is no valid reason to touch those dials again in the hunting fields.


rcmodel

 

[Outlaws]

Friction might be less desirable, but for a hunting scope I would hardly consider them a deal breaker. In fact, for a hunting scope I wouldn't even care.

 

[tommer]

rcmodel, I reluctantly concede that on-the-fly adjustment isn't so important in hunting.

It seems like clicks go along with on-the-fly adjustment. If you never re-zero in the field then how important is repeatability?

That said, is the VX-II worth the extra 50% over the VX-I?

 

[eliphalet]

Leupold terminology questions

Leupold's web site is very informative if you'll look a bit. There is also a good FAQ page.

 

[taliv]

recon it depends on WHAT you're hunting. if your quarry is deer @ 50 yrds, the no, i wouldn't expect a lot of clickity clackity right before the boom. if you're looking at groundhogs, crows, coyote, or p-dogs from 100-300+ those scope caps will get annoying in a hurry

 

[rcmodel]

If you never re-zero in the field then how important is repeatability?

It's not. What is important is if the 1/4" click, or "mark" on the adjustment is really 1/4" at 100 yards. It makes sighting in so much more enjoyable if the adjustments really do what they say they do.

But in all reality, friction dials can be just as repeatable as click dials if they move the reticule the same amount each mark.

With that said, I prefer click adjustments, because I can feel them without having to even pay much attention to the blurry image through my fogged up bifocals.

if you're looking at groundhogs, crows, coyote, or p-dogs from 100-300+

As for that, I have done quite well on three of those four species for about 50 years now.

And I've never owned a target knob scope in my life, except for air rifle scopes.
Longest Coyote shot = 527 yards with a 3-9 Redfield on a 22-250.
Longest crow shot = 400+ with a K-6 on a 30-06.
Longest Prairie Dog shot = 450+ yards (several) with a K-10 Weaver on a 22-250.

All three scopes had caps on the dials & I never "Twiddle & Diddle" with them except when sighting in a new load.


rcmodel

 

[tommer]

All of my scope experience is with cheap rimfire scopes and low-end Bushnells and the like. If a scope needs 20 clicks worth of adjustment to move 2" @100yds when it says right on it that it's 1/4" per click then I'm not confident in the repeatability of those adjustments.

Can I assume that all Leupolds feature repeatable adjustments? I really like the idea of being able to move from 100yds up to 300yds and knowing that I'm shooting true as long as I didn't miscount.

 

[rcmodel]

But if you are shooting something like a .223, or 30-06, or any other halfway decent centerfire you just zero at 200 yards.

If the coyote / deer / whatever is at 100, you are going to hit less then 2" high.
So, hold under 2", or not.
You are still going to hit it.

If the target is at 300, you are going to hit 8" low.
So, hold over 8", or 4" or whatever you can manage.
You are still going to hit it.

It's so much faster then twiddling dials!

Why, any halfway healthy coyote or deer would run clear away while you were making scope adjustments with your target knobs.


rcmodel

 

[Outlaws]

I wouldn't adjust a scope for a 100-300 shot. Very few rifles rounds drop much at those distances. For 30 cals I like to sight it at 3" high at 100 yards. Aim a hair low for 100 yard shots, and just go for dead on at 200-300.

 

[eliphalet]

Can I assume that all Leupold's feature repeatable adjustments?

Yes, and if for any reason outside of blatant abuse, it does not your only cost is postage to Leupold and they will fix it free.

 

[Wildfire]

New Scope.

All these guys are right. I may be on a different page. I only deal with exact shot placement and at long ranges. If you are just hunting deer at 100 to 300 yards Zero 2" high at the 100 and you should be good to 300.
If you are shooting loner ranges at P-dogs and such, those target turrets come in kind of handy. They were put on that scope to be used and any scope that can not repeat it's settings is not worth owning. That friction turret will work just fine if you want to set it and leave it alone. But it will not come back to your original zero. I have had many of these. And now one by one they are on their way out. When I say that they wont come back, I mean, precisely back to where they were. I only deal with the precise not average. You can not kill P-dogs at 700 plus yards with averages.
I do however some what dissagree about the adjusting scopes in the field. I do this all the time. I am an extreme accuracy nut. I also use much higher power scopes and much more expensive ones. The B&L 3x9 3200 Elite is a very nice scope and does not cost that much. You get turrets that can be set back to zero. I use that one on my Muzzleloader and it works better then that Leupold did.

 

[MAX100]

My vote goes to a Bushnell 3200 scope. The Leupold VX-I and the VX-II have a two piece tube and are over priced.



GC

 

[Wildfire]

Over Priced.

Max100 is right. Leupold is pretty proud of their scope. They are all pretty good. But there are better ones out there. I shoot some pretty accurate rifles and at some long ranges. My .308 is a 1000 yard gun. It is a Rem, 700 PSS. My .223 PSS is an extremely accurate gun. I can get one hole at 100 meters but much prefer a clover leaf to prove the 3 shots. Cheap scopes will not do this. My Encore .50 cal will rag a hole at the same 100 meters with that 3200 elite, and that is not an expensive scope. The click values are not as prcise as they should be, but you get what you pay for. My Rem. 700 .270 Mountain light wieght will toss 3/4" groups with the older VX-II leuplod 3x9.
But do not touch those turrets. That scope will go when I get time to mess with it. In the near future I will be spending a serious amount of money on some new scopes. One will be a new NightForce. These are not cheap. But they repeat their settings and are rock solid. The biggest cost in any optics is the Glass. Again> you get what you pay for. But for your every day hunting rifle That 3200 comes in several models and starts around $200.00 and up. They are clear. Rain guard, and rear eye focus. That means a lot to me. I'm not getting any younger.
Hope some of this helps. I have studied optics and scope for a long time now.
Years. But dont want to ball up your brain with too much tech, crap.

 

[hksw]

Friction adjustments do indeed sound like a bad idea.

IMO, it is not such a bad idea.

Personally, I have a few friction adjust turreted Leupolds and have not had any problems with them as they sit on my rifles and when they are adjusted and returned to zero. I also have quite a number of click adjust turreted Leupolds (as well as others).

There is an advantage with friction adjustments. With this type of turret, you can make much finer adjustments to the crosshair. With a click adjust, every click is 1/4" (or in some cases, 1/8" or 1/2"). With a friction adjust, you can adjust to smaller increments as the adjustment is continuous and not discrete. That is, you can adjust to smaller distances than the markings on or around the dial. The biggest problem with friction adjust is that you have to see the adjustments. You have to watch the arrow or marker and line them up with the hash marks or to whatever fractional portion of hashmarks for finer adjustments when you turn the screw. This also means that you will have to get out of shooting position to do so.

Where the click adjust works best is when you make adjustments and don't have to look at the dial when doing so (unless you have an older click adjust scope that does not have finger adjustable turrets, but even then it is possible to stay in position and adjust with a small screw driver or coin). It's quicker and easier to make adjustments by just the feel and sound of the clicks.

I do prefer the click adjustments myself as I like to stay in position when adjusting.

 

[eliphalet]

My vote goes to a Bushnell 3200 scope. The Leupold VX-I and the VX-II have a two piece tube and are over priced.

Good scopes I am sure from what I have seem looking them over but,
Bushnell is a Lifetime warranty Limited to original owner, Leupold is forever whoever owns it where ever you got it from.
Less eye relief than the Leupold
Less field of view
Bushnell weighs more
Several reticles to choose from with the Leupold VXII and if you ever decide you want to change for $50 IIRC they will change it for you etc.


Overpriced? Not in my opinion but to each his own.

I have personally sent in a 40 some year old Leupold that I didn't get new and it was returned to me in "as new condition" for just the price of postage to the factory.

All this is mute as the OP ask about Leupold's and not what scope is best in the first place.

 

[jmr40]

Another vote for the VX-1. I have Leupold VX-1 scopes as well as the VX-2 and the older Vari-X-3 scopes on my rifles. Yes, the more expensive scopes are better, but the VX-1 will do anything that I need a scope to do. The friction adjustments are not a problem and once I got used to them they may be better.

 

[George Hill]

The strength of the tube is not the issue. It's the strength of what is inside the tube. There is a difference. Now about the Bushnell... stronger than the Leupold? Ha! I put a Bushnell on my CZ 527 yesterday, zeroed it today, fired 40 rounds, and guess what? It's back off the rifle and sitting with on a shipping clerk's desk to send it back to Bushnell first thing Monday. What went wrong? The crosshairs busted. I've NEVER even seen a Leupold scope tube break... and never seen broken crosshairs inside either. But this is the, what? 5th or 6th Bushnell with the same problem?
This is too bad too because I was actually starting to really like it. Right up to the point it when belly up.

The new VX-II scopes ARE the old Vari-X III scopes.

 

[jerkface11]

I've seen broken crosshairs in a Leupold. I bought ONE Leupold VX-I it's got a clear picture however any scope costing more than $25 should come with lens covers. In face I've bought BSA scopes out of the bargain bin at walmart and they came with lens covers. But apparently Leupold doesn't include them with ANY scope they make. I'm far happier with my bushnell elite.

 

[tommer]

What's this about Leupolds using two-piece tubes? I'm guessing that the two pieces come together in the middle at the adjustment turrets. Are there real-world consequences to this?

 

[jeepmor]

Go to a retailer and look through them with your eyes. People can argue to and fro whats best. No doubt, spend a mint on a scope and you will get a good one. However, Leupold and Nikon are about the best for the budget minded price points.

I did this looking last season and bought a Leupold after putting a Bushnell that was over 100 bucks more back on the shelf when compared to a VX1 Leupold. Mind you, I'm no optics afficianado, I just went with what my eyes told me. I did the same thing with Binoculars and drew the same conclusions. Until you get to about 3x the price point in Binocs, Leupold and Nikon are about the best in their price points.

This is what my eyes told me while looking at Bushnell, Leupold, Nikon, Tasco and some offbrand stuff like Winchester all in the same price points. I did not see any difference even in the German optics when comparing the best Nikon binocs they had available, not that my eyes could differentiate. However, at lower light, those German optics would definitely reign supreme.

 

[Wildfire]

Some Facts.

Here are some Facts That we have no choice but to deal with. Leupolds are very good scopes. Leupold also has a business partner now. They have a good warranty. They make top quality scopes. The 3200 Elite was made by Bausch & Lomb. Bushnell Bought them out along with 16 other companies. Ones that may shock you. Uncle Mikes Holsters Is owned by Bushnell. Along with a Custom Rifle Maker too. They also own Tasco now. BOP. Bushnell Outdoor Products of China. If it says BOP it is made in China. That B&L 3200 Elite Has a full life time warranty and is made by B&L owned by Bushnell forced to carry their name. Bushnell will warranty that 3200 no matter who owns it and pay return shipping. FYI. With no receip or warranty card.
I have many scopes and have had many go bad. even some high dollar ones.
It all really boils down to personall prefernce. You will not be unhappy with any Leupold scope you get. If you match up the features you are looking for.
This will dictate the price. The reason for German scopes costing so much is the glass. The glass is ground correctly to be free of aberrations. There are 6 major aberrations that scopes have to deal with. Some matter a lot some do not. For the average deer hunter most do not matter. For the 1000 yard shooter, they all start to matter.
As I said before I am not a Bushnell fan and never have been, they make cheap stuff. But that B&L 3200 and the 4200 are not made by Bushnell.
I work on rifles as a side line for tuning for accuracy. I get to see many different scopes and shoot them. Some work some don't. Many times I have to inform a guy that his scope is the problem. Leupolds have been in this group as well as many others. Mechanical things break or just stop working correctly. But for the most part most scopes today seem to work OK.
I would not worry too much about how a scope is made, but concentrate more on what it will do for you. A general rule I have is do not put a cheap scope on an expensive rifle. And do not put an expensive scope on a cheap rifle. Unless it is a tack driver. I have many pages in book that I am working on covering scopes. BDC scopes, ect. I have made this a passion and worked on it for years.
Things are changing rapidly in the field of optics these days. I personally am moving to the much more expensive scopes for long range shooting. The Leupolds are not being concidered. NightForce makes high dollar scopes that fit the bill. But they start out at $1100.00 Plus. Personal preference. Have fun with what ever scope you get, and happy hunting.