LGBT community support for the RKBA?

Status
Not open for further replies.
During the gay marriage debate, several of the major gun forums I visit were filled with what I consider hate speech towards LGBT members.
I can easily imagine someone googling for info on a particular firearm, and stumbling into a discussion like that.
 
Old Lady New Shooter - This is incredibly important, if we can change RKBA from an apparently Republican position to an American position, we win.


Exactly indeed.

I did not know what to think about how well this thread would do on THR. I am pleased with the number and type of responses. It seems to me that the "American postion" that first started us on the path to where we are today as a nation is a demand for equal treatment.
 
SSN Vet, if you are lumping all LGBT people as statists, that is a disservice to our image. That's akin to saying that all RKBA supporters are right wing Bible thumping white male bigots.

The reason that many LGBT vote left wing is that the left treats them FAIRLY as an equal person, and the gun community should be more open and welcoming of people of all walks of life. Cause lets be honest, the GUN doesn't care what race, sex, or orientation you are, and the RIGHT to have that gun doesn't care either.
 
This is quite the strange thread....

Support for the RKBA is not the same as "went shooting once" or "purchased a pistol"...

RKBA is a liberty based constitutional point of view towards gun ownership and use. It views gun rights as a necessary check on state power and is philosophically at odds with statism. To think that you're going to get leftist statists who are wise enough to appreciate that having a gun for personal defense is desireable to agree with the philosophy that underpins the RKBA, is, in my view, fallacy.

Many people who go shooting once or even own a pistol are all for UBC, AR bans and high cap bans. Such are, imo, not pro 2A and pro RKBA.

From Wikipedia: "Statism can take many forms from minarchism to totalitarianism. Minarchists prefer a minimal or night-watchman state to protect people from aggression, theft, breach of contract, and fraud with military, police, and courts.[2] Some may also include fire departments, prisons, and other functions.[2] Welfare state adepts and other such options make up more statist territory of the scale of statism.[3][4] Totalitarians prefer a maximum or all-encompassing state.[5][6]"

I think you have greatly miss-stated the philosophical basis for the 2nd Amendment. The Founders were certainly Statis of the type known as Minarchists and the 2nd Amendment was considered a protection against a government moving toward Totalitarianism.
 
Okay. But day to day, when you sit down at the table you look around for allies, you look for folks you got the Main Thing in common with. Remember who killed the most Germans in WWII?
 
Okay. But day to day, when you sit down at the table you look around for allies, you look for folks you got the Main Thing in common with. Remember who killed the most Germans in WWII?

The Soviets: 2,742,909 Dead Nazis

Everybody Else Combined: 534,683 Dead Nazis

Oh, and we WERE allies with the Soviets during WWII. So maybe the enemy of my enemy is my friend?
 
I would think, by definition, they are going to vote liberal and Dem. neither of which are any good for "us".
 
I have many gay friends, and I have taught some concealed carry courses to them and their friend circles. I deliberately keep my course very non-partisan for this reason.

The community in general is very liberal, and I am very conservative, but they have a clear desire to take responsibility for their own safety. And, (at the risk of indulging in some stereotypes,) they have more time and disposable income. They can afford training and practice, while the rest of us have to buy our kids birthday presents.
 
HexHead said:
I would think, by definition, they are going to vote liberal and Dem
I also think it a bit presumptive to define members of the LGBT community as Liberal and Democratic...it certainly hasn't been my experience

It is like saying that Chinese are all mathematicians and piano/violin players

If you wanted to really define them within a group, I think you'd be safer going with Libertarian
 
It HAS been mine. :) I certainly find it likely that much of the community leans libertarian, but SLC has a bit of an odd makeup. It is the lone liberal enclave in Utah, and people who live there tend to lean left out of a perception that they are being pushed to the right. They tend to speak (and vote) this way. In another location, perhaps many of them wouldn't feel so squeezed.

The way I see it, it not to try to mass convert all of them to everything I believe. I just want them to own RKBA, and make them think twice when someone suggests that it's ok to start chipping away at ANY of their rights.
 
That's been my experience in East Tennessee as well. My LGBT pals have been far more libertarian in their views. They more than many know the oppression of governments and want governments to butt out of their ad everyone else's lives. If pushed away by one group in particular they're more likely to find common ground with others and therefore take a pragmatic path with those that would take away the fewest of their guaranteed freedoms.
 
Axiom 29. The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. No more. No less.

I'm in a different country, so the absorbed norms are different. Gays seem to be found through all aspects of the political spectrum here, and can range from totally anti-gun to pro.

A number of years ago I was involved in preventing a State take over and closure of a major federally owned shooting complex. The State Premier (Governor) was generally accepted to be a closeted gay and was very anti-gun.
The State opposition leader from the other party expended political capital so I could meet with the Federal Minister responsible and block the move.
That opposition leader voted against his own party to lower the age of consent for homosexual acts, the party member who acted as go-between for us was a proctologist with vanity tags 'AssDr'.
Reading between the lines, both sides of the political spectrum had homosexual or, at a minimum, pro-homosexual individuals at the top.
Their sexual orientation didn't matter on the issue of guns. Nor, really, did their politics, as the opposition leader was from the same party as the Prime Minister who banned semi-autos. What mattered was their interest, or lack of it, in individual liberty.

One of my gay clients was a great classical musician, I kept one of his CDs in my car for years. He was opposed to gay marriage, because marriage is for straights to have children. He was also opposed to the demeaning treatment of boys at 'parties' held by the law partner of another conservative State Premier.
A shooter I know is Jewish, gay and has a mother complex out of New York via Hollywood. He's also a successful businessman and conservative.
Another is an excellent long range shooter and runs multiple 'bath houses'. Zero interest in politics, guns are his bling.
Another, a Colonel in the army, apolitical, his homosexuality was a non issue for him, as it was outside of his duties. Until he was harassed by his superior and submitted his resignation out of principal. His medical skill set was considered essential, so he was promoted above his former superior.

Why the anecdotes?
Because I don't hold with the idea that there is a 'BLT&M' community. There are simply people, some of which share common interests. The lesbians I have known didn't care for homosexual men, the homosexual men didn't have much to do with lesbians and thought transgender people were seriously confused. The only shared characteristic was frequenting the same pubs, which tended to have been the ones that accepted them in more oppressive days. Politically they were across the spectrum of the parties and their attitudes ranged the gamut of liberal, libertine, libertarian,conservative and communist.

Sexuality is only a minor part of a persons character. It doesn't define their all, unless they obsess about it. Those that obsess about it are not going to care about RKBA, other than how it impacts them and their obsession. Those that live a broader life? They may be open to our arguments, or already share them.

I see zero need to play along with Social Justice Warrior 'Shut Up, Because Reasons' games, they are played by the obsessed. The intention is to negate any viewpoint other than their own, twisting the conventions of polite society to their agenda and close down communication by those other than them. Orwell warned against the redefinition of words to control thought processes. No one has a right to not be offended.

On the other hand, the exact opposite is required to improve the position of RKBA, we need considered discourse. People in fear will not support RKBA for others, arms makes the Other even scarier. Angry people are destructive and will see being armed as a means to that end. Rational discussion requires at least a modicum of respect for the other person for communication to take place. If you want to promote shooting to a gay person, treat them as a normal human being and invite them shooting. To be deliberately offensive is bad manners and non sequitur. The subject is RKBA and the shooting sports, not gay marriage or the theological rights and wrongs of the gay life style. It's possible to disagree on those subjects and find common ground elsewhere.

I expect groups like the Pink Pistols and activists like Tom Palmer will continue to do what they do, regardless of any opposition they see from some shooters based on how they live their lives. They have made a considered decision to promote civil rights. That includes the rights of people who don't like them and people they don't like.
But for the average person? Polite acceptance that they are a human being and not a stereotype goes a long way.
 
Great post Radagast! A very interesting perspective on Australian society, LBGT diversity, and how to conduct productive political discourse.
 
I don't really think there is a lot of "hate from the right" for LGBT folks. I think the media portrays them that way to advance their anti conservative agenda. It is a shame. I think most pro 2A people, and conservatives just want to live, and let live yet the media, government, and our educational system promotes us a racist, homophobes. It is just not true, and we need to make sure the LGBT knows that so they can start voting with us.
 
Haven't really known to many people in the gay community well enough to know their RKBA thoughts. However I did work with a woman who was in a lesbian relationship. She was very conservative and supported 2nd rights.
 
I know many people who identify as LGBT. Every single one is pro gun, many of which have bigger firearm selections and ammo stores than I do. One particular couple in NOLA runs a gun range and gave each other engraved custom Kimbers as a wedding present. The irony is they were married in a Catholic cathedral.

Pilot said:
I don't really think there is a lot of "hate from the right" for LGBT folks. I think the media portrays them that way to advance their anti conservative agenda. It is a shame. I think most pro 2A people, and conservatives just want to live, and let live yet the media, government, and our educational system promotes us a racist, homophobes. It is just not true, and we need to make sure the LGBT knows that so they can start voting with us.

Before I moved to the south I would say I'd agree with you. There are tons of homophobic hatred in these states.
 
I don't really think there is a lot of "hate from the right" for LGBT folks. I think the media portrays them that way to advance their anti conservative agenda. It is a shame. I think most pro 2A people, and conservatives just want to live, and let live yet the media, government, and our educational system promotes us a racist, homophobes. It is just not true, and we need to make sure the LGBT knows that so they can start voting with us.

That has not been my observation. What most people don't seem to realize is how subtle hatred is often expressed by people with a smile on their face, a chuckle in their voice, and a self-described heart full of love for the sinner or claim to have "no problem with gays". I have lived in the South, Northeast, Southwest, and Northwest and all these regions have many people who behave this way. It is not just pro-gun people behaving this way, but the others don't matter because they are not hindering the ability to persuade neutral non-gun people to support the RKBA. Expressions of intolerance damage the credibility of rational arguments supporting other issues.
 
That has not been my observation. What most people don't seem to realize is how subtle hatred is often expressed by people with a smile on their face, a chuckle in their voice, and a self-described heart full of love for the sinner or claim to have "no problem with gays". I have lived in the South, Northeast, Southwest, and Northwest and all these regions have many people who behave this way. It is not just pro-gun people behaving this way, but the others don't matter because they are not hindering the ability to persuade neutral non-gun people to support the RKBA. Expressions of intolerance damage the credibility of rational arguments supporting other issues.
I used to see this a lot from Communitarians and Fauxgressives, now it has been replaced with smugness, stubbornness, and low-level hostility.

So, I don't think what you are describing is a trait isolated to a particular ideology. I think it is a trait common to those who possess a terrifying incurious blank-eyed certainty. I'd love to believe that it is common to a particular ideology, but I have instead learned that it is common to the majority of humanity.
 
.......So, I don't think what you are describing is a trait isolated to a particular ideology. I think it is a trait common to those who possess a terrifying incurious blank-eyed certainty. I'd love to believe that it is common to a particular ideology, but I have instead learned that it is common to the majority of humanity.

I completely agree, but this behavior is obviously much more prevalent in some ideologies. My point is that regardless of ideology, the type of behavior I described does not benefit the defense of the RKBA.
 
I completely agree, but this behavior is obviously much more prevalent in some ideologies. My point is that regardless of ideology, the type of behavior I described does not benefit the defense of the RKBA.
Obviously?

Not in my experience at all. Magical thinking, herd mentality, mob rule, "othering," central planning, illusory order, etc. etc. etc. are universal human failings.
 
Yes obviously! Some ideology's have founding documents that very specifically establish justifications for both extreme organized and casual shallow discriminatory behavior.
 
Okay sure, you mean founding documents like Marxist workers vs. management, Socialist rich vs. poor, or Gaia Cultism man vs. nature, Communitarian collectivism vs. individualism?

Or are you only thinking of one particular ideologies founding documents?

Yes, I'm being rhetorical. I am perfectly aware of where you think the close-mindedness resides.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top