Libertarian Party=Ideological Chum Bucket of Two-Party System

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roo_ster

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"Or consider the Libertarian party, once the repository of libertarian dreams of social transformation and now little more than an ideological chum bucket for the political refuse of the American two-party system."

The author comes close to saying what I have thought for some time: doctrinaire libertarianism is a Utopian philosophy similar to other Utopian philosophies we have seen in the last 150 years.

The other point where I think the author nails it is that those who think of themselves as conservatives ought to consult the libertarian position when forming their own position on gov't policy. "Should the government really be doing this?" Indeed.

Last, the anecdotes regarding Ayn Rand and Murray Rothbard are hilarious.

http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=ZjM5ZDc3MzdjZWViMmMzOTljN2Q5ZDkzYjZmNWVjYTc=
Live Free or Else!
A walk on the libertarian side.


By Jonah Goldberg

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Editor's note: This review appeared in the April 27 issue of National Review. National Review has many regular features and reviews that never make it to NRO — except to Digital subscribers. Consider subscribing to NR, in its paper or digital form today.

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“Ayn Rand is the greatest human being who has ever lived.”

“Ayn Rand, by virtue of her philosophical genius, is the supreme arbiter in any issue pertaining to what is rational, moral, or appropriate to man’s life on earth.”

“Once one is acquainted with Ayn Rand and/or her work, the measure of one’s virtue is intrinsically tied to the position one takes regarding her and/or it.”

These, according to Brian Doherty’s new book Radicals for Capitalism, are just three of the “implicit premises” of Ayn Rand’s inner circle. These ideas were taught to young initiates through an organization called the Nathaniel Branden Institute, whose founder, Nathaniel Branden, was born Nathan Blumenthal but changed his name — so the story goes — when he fell under Rand’s spell: “Branden” is an anagram for “ben Rand,” or “son of Rand” in Hebrew. The married Branden denied this oft-repeated claim, perhaps because it would make his sexual relationship with Rand too incestuous even for one who truly did believe she was the greatest human being who has ever lived. Considering that it was National Review — in a 1957 Whittaker Chambers review of Atlas Shrugged — that famously read Ayn Rand and her philosophy out of the conservative movement as a form of cult, it seems worth mentioning all of this, if for no other motivation than team pride: “We told you so!”

That being said, Radicals for Capitalism is, quite simply, the best book of its kind ever written. This should not be interpreted as faint praise merely because it is the only book of its kind ever written (at least that I am aware of). It is an extraordinary accomplishment. Doherty, a senior editor at Reason magazine, has amassed an astonishing amount of information, often from hard-to-find sources, and presented it in a way that is accessible to the novice and illuminating to those already familiar with its subject matter (this reviewer falls into both camps, depending on the topic).

The book is by no means flawless. There are passages where Doherty lapses into movement stenography, calling the roll of those attending meetings forgotten even by most in attendance — and with such amnesia subtracting very little from human wisdom. Some overlong sentences are almost Bushian in that they start out fine, but you have no idea where they might end up. Also, there is so much material — and there are so many overlapping narratives — that at times Doherty’s timelines seem a bit tangled. But these are mere potholes in an otherwise extremely entertaining and informative ride.

One of the great sins in book reviewing is reviewing the book the author didn’t actually write, but the one the reviewer wishes he had. So in a sense mine is a sinful critique. But the biggest objection to be made to Radicals for Capitalism revolves around what the book isn’t. In its 700-plus pages of text and footnotes, Doherty doesn’t pick a single philosophical fight, at least not with fellow libertarians. This is Big Tent intellectual history, where everybody’s point of view is aired and every member gets a portrait on the clubhouse wall.

In some cases, as with the chapter dealing with Rand, one could argue that Doherty lets the damning facts speak for themselves. But, overall, Doherty has made a clear choice to offer a just-the-facts rendition of libertarian history. He uses what are clearly keen analytical tools to explain what the Rands, Rothbards, Miseses, and others had to say and how they related to one another, but he puts those tools on the shelf when it comes time to distinguish between the arguments of these largely “peculiar people” (his words). As an editorial choice this is entirely valid, perhaps even laudable: After all, libertarians, like conservatives, have no shortage of options if they’re looking for doctrinal squabbles. And libertarians, unlike conservatives, have lacked — until now — a straightforward history of their movement and tradition. This lacuna is no doubt attributable in part to the fact that libertarians often have revolutionary fire in their hearts and, like all revolutionaries, believe the past is a pile of dry bones offering little save a foundation upon which the New Order must be built.

Even so, Doherty seems at times eager to lean over backward toward ideological ecumenicalism, letting even the most peculiar libertarians have a seat at the table, no matter how inconvenient they might be to an intellectual movement fighting for mainstream credibility. Occasionally he does roll his eyes at some excesses, but never really chooses sides.

Obviously, every political movement has its own problems, conservatism included. But if you had to identify libertarianism’s Achilles’ heel, it would almost certainly be its tolerance for zealots, purists, mavericks, and, well, whack-jobs. Since the libertarians don’t see themselves as Left or Right, one can’t use the phrase “no enemies on the left [or right]” to explain their stance. But “love me, love my whack-job” gets close to the heart of it.

The revolutionary ardor of libertarianism combines with its fetishization of rationalism and consistency to make a soft spot in the libertarian heart for intellectual extremism. Murray Rothbard, the genius father figure of modern libertarianism, converted to anarcho-capitalism from classical liberalism when someone asked him: If the social contract can justify a small government, “why can’t society also agree to have a government build steel mills and have price controls and whatever? At that point I realized that the laissez-faire position is terribly inconsistent, and I either had to go on to anarchism or become a statist.” Now, there are good answers to this social-contract question — though obviously none of them satisfactory to Rothbard. The point is that only something akin to inconsistency-phobia would force someone to believe that one must endorse a Soviet Five-Year Plan if one is willing to enjoy the protection of police or courts. But Rothbard was a highly unusual type: He refused to vote for president for fear of being conscripted into “compulsory jury slavery.” Indeed, while Doherty treats him lovingly, he notes that Rothbard was a man of “crippling phobias” of such things as “traveling, bridges, and planes.”

Or consider the Libertarian party, once the repository of libertarian dreams of social transformation and now little more than an ideological chum bucket for the political refuse of the American two-party system. [/B]As Doherty notes, there is now a high wall of separation between libertarianism’s best and brightest intellectuals and policy experts and the party that ostensibly speaks for them. Gary Greenberg, the founder of the New York State LP, tells Doherty that any attempt to be relevant to electoral politics amounts to “selling out.” The “very idea of worrying about the LP becoming a major force is essentially selling out,” he explains, “because hardcore libertarianism has no mass constituency. And if you are constantly covering it up you are just playing games. There is no mass constituency for seven-year-old heroin dealers to be able to buy tanks with their profits from prostitution, and once you face that the LP has to decide: Are they compromising their principles for votes, or are they running candidates for the opportunity to educate people?”

Just so.

The contrast between this sort of thinking and that found among mainstream conservatives could not be more stark. The prevailing position of the Buckleyite Right over the decades has been to lend support to the most conservative candidate electable. And, if that candidate is elected, to applaud or criticize when appropriate.
The libertarian zest for purity and the ardor — particularly among its younger or more boisterous members — to mock and criticize the values of those most amenable to their message have made it virtually impossible for a mainstream politician to cast himself as a champion of libertarianism. Meanwhile, the most successful libertarian politicians have proudly called themselves conservatives.

Unfortunately Doherty doesn’t spend very much time or energy discussing the dynamic and symbiotic relationship between libertarians and conservatives. This sometimes gives the story a certain Rosencrantz & Guildenstern feel, as Doherty focuses on minor characters while giving short shrift to the avowed conservatives — many of them at National Review — who actually did much of the heavy lifting in the effort to popularize limited government.

This is forgivable, because Doherty’s aim is to highlight the fact that libertarianism has a story all its own to tell. But that story is deeply instructive about the weaknesses of libertarian political strategy. Bill Buckley worked assiduously to disassociate his brand of conservatism from the swampier varieties contending for power and influence. This took a unique combination of talents, from intellectual openness to critics — Rothbard himself attended NR editorial meetings as late as 1960, despite his sometimes vicious criticisms of the magazine’s “clerical fascism” — to sometimes painful separations from friends and former allies. Chambers’s overly harsh, but ultimately necessary, defenestration of Ayn Rand is just one such example.

Hence it should be no surprise that libertarianism’s greatest victories have come from its ability to persuade not the general public but conservatives themselves. The hot tea of libertarian radicalism is cooled in the saucer of American conservatism and made palatable. Today, libertarian economics are essentially indistinguishable from conservative economics. The Club for Growth, the Republican Liberty Caucus, and similar organs speak for “economic conservatives” — which, for all practical purposes, means libertarians. To be sure, they don’t advocate the legality of seven-year-old heroin dealers; nor do their hearts necessarily swell with pride over every Republican policy. Conservatism’s relationship to the GOP is quite analogous to libertarianism’s relationship to conservatism, in that both are punctuated with frequent disappointment and frustration. A burning question left unanswered by Doherty is whether libertarian strategy is an inevitable outgrowth of libertarian ideology. Is libertarianism capable of saying no?

No conservative should commit to a policy without first consulting the libertarian position. Indeed, once conservatism forgets to ask, “Should the government really be doing this?” it will have ceased conserving what is best about conservatism. Hence Radicals for Capitalism should be required reading not just for libertarians, but for their conservative comrades-in-arms as well.


— Jonah Goldberg is editor-at-large of National Review Online.
 
Excellent article.

It is so apropos for me as I have had some dalliances with both libertarianism and the Libertarian Party in the past.

In the end I have ended up calling myself a conservative with strong libertarian leanings.
 
Me, too.

Actually, last night, I said I'm a conservative fiscally, and laissez-faire socially.

"Social liberal" has become associated with statism, as much as "social conservative." For one the boogie man is porn, the other "hate speech"; for one a priority is banning abortions, for the other it's forcing me to pay for them regardless of my moral beliefs.
 
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... “love me, love my whack-job” ...
...libertarian zest for purity and the ardor — particularly among its younger or more boisterous members — to mock and criticize the values of those most amenable to their message...
This guy knows his libertarians. Yup.
 
I have, at times, called myself a libertarian, since the GOP and much of the current conservative movement have moved to a religious premise for their policies, rather than a rational, secular one.

I agree, libertarianism and objectivism are utopian. But, I say, "so what?" Even if you accept that there are practical restraints in ever fully implementing the core principles, there is value in the goal: individual rights vs. collective rights, limited government vs. ever expanding government, personal responsibility vs. societal responsibility, free market economics vs. a heavily regulated, managed economy, etc. A little bit of the right medicine is better than a whole lot of the wrong medicine any day.

K
 
A little bit of the right medicine is better than a whole lot of the wrong medicine any day.

Too many card-carrying Libertarians would call you a blasphemer for being such a staunch supporter of the evil status quo.:p
 
I have, at times, called myself a libertarian, since the GOP and much of the current conservative movement have moved to a religious premise for their policies, rather than a rational, secular one.

There was never a time in our history when policy was only determined by secular "rational" premises.

The governed have always voted in representatives who reflected their moral and political will.

What has happened is that increasingly the courts are redefining the words and intent of the framers and taking away the peoples ability to work these issues out in the laboratory of the state legislatures.

The secularists and materialists have been at the forefront of the movement that views the constitution as a document that means whatever they say it means at that given time in history. The secularist folks are the ones who will gladly use government fiat if the people don't vote correctly (in their opinion).

Now you will say I unkindly lump libertarian secularists in with socialist/leftist secularists.

I say you paint the whole conservative movement with a broad brush unfairly.
 
libertarianism’s Achilles’ heel, it would almost certainly be its tolerance for zealots, purists, mavericks, and, well, whack-jobs.

Usually whenever there is a libertarian type thread here, there will a very thought provoking post, with lots of good points.

Then that post is followed by somebody on the same side, who's post is about the dangers of the NWO, the Bildeburgers, Trilateral Commission, and how the Chemtrails are the product of the Black Helicopters to battle the Reptoids of the Hollow Earth.

The next post will be from another libertarian that will call conservatives names, say they hate freedom, and are stupid. Being called a stupid fascist really sways people to your side.

I'm sure the first smart Libertarian really appreciates the help. :rolleyes:
 
Conservative with a libertarian bent adequately describes me. I also agree that it is impossible to completely divorce morality from legislation. The question is whose morality you use. Judeo-Christian morality has served us pretty well up to this point--but that is, of course, in my Judeo-Christian point of view.
 
GoRon

I agree with just about everything you said in your reply to me.

Especially, "Now you will say I unkindly lump libertarian secularists in with socialist/leftist secularists." Unfortunately, it's true that the humanist/socialist/leftist secularists outnumber and have more influence than the smaller group of libertarian/objectivists secularists.

Please notice, though, that I tried to avoid broad-brushing conservatives by using the qualifier, "much of" in front of "current conservative..."

I note from your profile that you were born in 1964. During that year I was a senior in high school and deeply involved in conservative politics, working with other students for the election of Barry Goldwater, for whom I could not even vote due to voting age still being 21.

Goldwater understood the importance of keeping religious doctrine out of the public fabric of government that covers all.

The following is from this website:

http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/about/goldwater.html

In a Sept. 15, 1981 senate speech, Goldwater noted that Falwell's Moral Majority, anti-abortion groups and other Religious Right outfits were sometimes referred to in the press as the "New Right" and the "New Conservatism." Responded Goldwater, "Well, I've spent quite a number of years carrying the flag of the 'Old Conservatism.' And I can say with conviction that the religious issues of these groups have little or nothing to do with conservative or liberal politics. The uncompromising position of these groups is a divisive element that could tear apart the very spirit of our representative system, if they gain sufficient strength." Insisted Goldwater, "Being a conservative in America traditionally has meant that one holds a deep, abiding respect for the Constitution. We conservatives believe sincerely in the integrity of the Constitution. We treasure the freedoms that document protects. . . "By maintaining the separation of church and state," he explained, "the United States has avoided the intolerance which has so divided the rest of the world with religious wars . . . Can any of us refute the wisdom of Madison and the other framers? Can anyone look at the carnage in Iran, the bloodshed in Northem Ireland, or the bombs bursting in Lebanon and yet question the dangers of injecting religious issues into the affairs of state?"
Goldwater concluded with a waming to the American people. "The religious factions will go on imposing their will on others," { he said,} "unless the decent people connected to them recognize that religion has no place in public policy. They must learn to make their views known without trying to make their views the only alternatives. . . We have succeeded for 205 years in keeping the affairs of state separate from the uncompromising idealism of religious groups and we mustn't stop now" { he insisted}. "To retreat from that separation would violate the principles of conservatism and the values upon which the framers built this democratic republic."


Amen!

K
 
I agree with the sentiments stated in your quote.

What I don't agree with is that a pro life position is somehow an abridgment of church and state.

Wanting control over your child's education and how your tax money is spent is not an abridgment of church and state.

Opposing redefining over six thousand years of human histories definition of what marriage and family is, is not an abridgment of separation of church and state.

I'm not sure what other "evils" the religious right is accused of but to alienate them and claim they are not true conservatives does the Republican party no good.

The answer is to get government out of the education and marriage business and to stop judges from running interference on the abortion issue and let the state legislatures do their job.

It would be nice if the rational libertarians would work to influence the Republican party instead of applying some type of all or nothing litmus test of purity.
 
Jonah Goldberg is a brainless hack
You're a poopy head.

ROTFLMAO

It's turned funny in the first page! This beats the hell out of that endless Fred Paul vs. Ron Thompson thread nearby.

And some of the people in this thread didn't sign up just to astroturf, either.

Things are looking up!
 
The people complaining about the "all-or-nothing types" need to remember that we have the Internet now. It used to be that you had to write a book to popularize your extreme ideas. I think the Internet makes it a lot worse and harms social interaction.

At the same time, the Internet is also a good place to goof around and let your inhibitions down to say some wild things that you'd never get away with in the real world. And regarding that, you just need to lighten up about it and let people go a bit nuts every now and then. They're no threat, except to your sanity.
 
I think the Internet makes it a lot worse and harms social interaction.

I disagree totally, you *@#$bucket!.

Unlike shallow hacks like yourself, I think the Internet makes it somewhat worse, but destroys social interaction.

You're so wrong, I'm surprised you were ever born, you worthless, stupid Religious Right @$$clown.

Ooops!!! Sorry. I slipped into Libertarian mode for a minute there. No offense intended.

:D:p:eek::rolleyes::):p
 
The people complaining about the "all-or-nothing types" need to remember that we have the Internet now. It used to be that you had to write a book to popularize your extreme ideas. I think the Internet makes it a lot worse and harms social interaction.


Maybe interaction on the net but I am not sure it changes how people act face to face.

I certainly don't want to go back to the old days where information wasn't at your fingertips.

Libertarians actually demonstrate some of the same behaviors that fundamentalist Christians are known for.

They don't like compromise and have rigid dogmas you have to adhere to.

They have a tendency to come off as self righteous.

They can be overbearing in their proselytizing.

They seem to "get off" on the fact that they have some esoteric knowledge that the sheeple just don't understand.

I like both groups of them so nothing personal intended :D.
 
One other thing about extremism and libertarian all-or-nothingness.

It struck me recently that this mindset has a lot of good ideas, but it seems like things need to be done in a certain order. Maybe you have to gradually get people used to the idea of personal responsibility and freedom before you legalize all drugs, shut down the local government clinic, and take away Social Security. Those are reasonable ideas, but seem almost alien right now because we are so used to them. We also may never get to the point where 7 year old pimps are buying tanks (which was just hyperbole the author used to make a point), but the principles behind a move toward that direction are the important things.

I think most libertarians, when they are screaming about candidates that don't quite meet their expectations, see a lack of principles. I'd certainly support a candidate who sincerely believed in smaller government even if he or she did not believe that FDR goaded the Japanese into WWII. Guns provide a good analogy: electing a Rudy Giuliani may give us another 4 years of fairly neutral gun laws, but the guy is such a slimeball about firearms that he's not worth supporting.

Conservatives are much more willing to be pragmatists and get behind a bad candidate anyway either because he is the most conservative, or like Rush said in the '06 elections, they are on the right side on other more important issues like terrorism. (Just his words, no need to start a debate on this.)

But hell, I can look pass some dumb things Ron Paul has said and still appreciate him as a politician. So maybe the author is just plain wrong :)
 
If working for smaller less intrusive government with more personal freedom and responsibility is just utopian, does that mean we're just to settle for the crap we have and be happy with it?
 
If working for smaller less intrusive government with more personal freedom and responsibility is just utopian, does that mean we're just to settle for the crap we have and be happy with it?

No

I must admit even as a conservative Republican (with libertarian leanings;)) that if our party at least showed momentum in the right direction these debates wouldn't be taking place.

The debate taking place here is a healthy thing for the Republican party. A wake up call to return to republicanism is what is taking place. I hope they are listening.
 
Soybomb:

Of course we should work towards making things better. But look at this exchange in another thread.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=279322

This is a typical example of the Libertarian-style all-or-nothing.

On the one hand, it's true, unregulated CCW would be a more perfect example of individual liberty.

HOWEVER, in a few short posts, this guy was COMPLAINING about the expiration of the AWB and the massive expansion of shall-issue CCW over the past decade in the US. Sure it's not perfect, but it's a huge improvement. And all he can do is bitch about it because, as is, it doesn't fit into his idea of a perfect world.

Hang out with Libertarians enough, and you'll hear this sort of thing a lot, about guns, drugs, urban zoning, privatizing playgrounds, etc.
 
I take great exception to the allegation that it is some extreme ideology. It HAS been implemented before: about 200 some odd years ago. It slowly started to evaporate, starting with the death of the last of the Founding Fathers (James Monroe) and then just about dying with the loss of Barry Goldwater in the 1964 election. (Goldwater is one of the Gods of the Libertarian movement)

We can support 'libertarian' ideas without 'all or nothing'. Cutting out alot of the garbage the government spends is one area, liberating the 2A of regulation is another.
 
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