Leftist and Conservative/Libertarian Ideologues

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Hawkeye, I was referring to lamazza's post on page 2, not yours. However, you have yet to provide any evidence that a total free market will resist corruption. Unfettered access to information? In your dreams. Corps don't want consumers to know the inside dirt on their products, and only government action can force them to disclose it. Enlightened consumers refusing to buy from unethical companies and driving them out of business? Sorry, it doesn't work that way in real life for the same reason that more people vote for American Idol than for President. You say your ideas are based on observation, but there's just one person in this thread who has made extensive use of real-life examples to illustrate their points. Hint: it isn't you.
 
Hawkeye, I was referring to lamazza's post on page 2, not yours. However, you have yet to provide any evidence that a total free market will resist corruption. Unfettered access to information? In your dreams. Corps don't want consumers to know the inside dirt on their products, and only government action can force them to disclose it. Enlightened consumers refusing to buy from unethical companies and driving them out of business? Sorry, it doesn't work that way in real life for the same reason that more people vote for American Idol than for President. You say your ideas are based on observation, but there's just one person in this thread who has made extensive use of real-life examples to illustrate their points. Hint: it isn't you.
What you say is incorrect. Anyone who lives as a human being, and among human beings (i.e., This is based on an observation of human nature), would know that human beings almost invariably behave in a self interested manner (Ask any research psychologist, if your personal experience is inadequate). Government is made up of said human beings. When you empower government, and to the extent that you do so, you intensify the motivation on the part of the power hungry to control government through corruption. The conservative/classical liberal/libertarian solution to this, based on our common human observations of all of the above, is to strictly limit the power of central government, preferring State government to Federal, county to State, town to county, and private to town, so as to make for the least efficient method possible for mass control through government corruption. Power corrupts. This statement is not an ideology. It is based on thousands of years of common human observations, history, tradition.
 
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It should be obvious that totally unfettered capitalism produces monopolies, which merge together to form supermonopolies that will eventually come to control all commerce in a market and against which no one can compete.

I agree that this possibility is the biggest weakness for all free market systems. We just disagree on the best cures. I also don't see much practical difference between a capitalist monopoly and an old fashioned state-owned monopoly. My biggest concern is the govt monopoly on force that the private companies don't have, at least in theory.


This is the case in many developing countries which, while capitalist in name, allow big companies to take over their economies and destroy all competition.

The key phrase here is "while capitalist in name". I've noticed in this on-going debate that many times fascist oligarchies are automatically labled capitalist when they really aren't. We have a defination problem to overcome before we can even get to the meat of it.

How do you propose to control the almost universal tendency of socialist systems to control competition, both economically and ideologically, by use of force? The Soviet gulag comes immediately to mind. If you haven't read Alexander Solzhenitsyn I would recommend you do.
 
I agree that this possibility is the biggest weakness for all free market systems.
I suppose you are referring to the case of a huge corporation undercutting smaller competitors, at a temporary loss to themselves (because they can afford short term losses), so as to drive out all who cannot afford such a price war. This, however, is largely a myth. Smaller leaner companies have defeated this strategy many times, because they don't have to pay their executives huge salaries, and have very small staffs, if any at all. One example was Microsoft vs IBM. Gates defeated IBM out of his parent's garage. Apple is another example. Make a better product, keep your company lean and mean, and you can defeat mega corporations in the long run. Yes, a huge corporation may be able to drive another large and inefficient corporation out by undercutting at a loss, but there are always dozens of little guys waiting to fill the void, stay lean, efficient, and make a better product at a lower price. Monopolies only work when they actually deliver a better product at a competitive price, assuming you can keep big government from protecting them from market forces.
 
Monopolies only work when they actually deliver a better product at a competitive price, assuming you can keep big government from protecting them from market forces.

Bingo. The weakness I see is the tendency of big bidness to buy the local govt so they don't have to worry about that silly competition stuff. Control that, and your examples work fine. Keeping govt as small as possible, as impossible as it appears to be, is the only method I see working. I'm perfectly willing to look at other alternatives, I just haven't seen any that seem to work.
 
How do you propose to control the almost universal tendency of socialist systems to control competition, both economically and ideologically, by use of force? The Soviet gulag comes immediately to mind. If you haven't read Alexander Solzhenitsyn I would recommend you do.

I don't think it can be controlled. That's one reason I don't support pure socialism. Every modern industrial society, from the US to Europe to Asia, has some socialist policies. I don't see much Ivan Denisovich action going on in countries like Sweden and France, which are more socialist than the US. It's important to draw the distinction between socialism, which is an economic system that may exist under any type of government, and communism, which is socialism plus a "dictatorship of the proletariat" that inevitably degenerates into pure tyranny.

The key phrase here is "while capitalist in name". I've noticed in this on-going debate that many times fascist oligarchies are automatically labled capitalist when they really aren't. We have a defination problem to overcome before we can even get to the meat of it.

I see "true capitalism" as a system under which anyone who can make a quality product and promote it well can compete in the market. Corporate monopoly and state monopoly both prevent this. This is the type of capitalism Adam Smith advocated in "The Wealth of Nations;" unbeknowst to many libertarians, he opposed things like trade secret law and economic concentration (i.e. big corporations) on the grounds that those things stifled competition.

I think regulations on business should be structured so that they maximize competition and minimize the power of industry to manipulate the government. A small government with no restrictions on campaign finance, lobbyists' conduct, etc. will be easier to corrupt, not harder, than one that places some controls on how business can interact with the state.

Here's some more in-depth analysis of Adam Smith's ideas:
http://www.pcdf.org/corprule/betrayal.htm

To Hawkeye:

Microsoft is a good example of how monopoly is possible without government intervention. One of the main reason Windows is still the standard OS is that Microsoft requires PC builders who put Windows on their machines to sign contracts saying that they won't sell computers with any other OSes installed. MS has also conducted hostile takeovers of many small competitors, all with no government help.

That aside, the computer and software industries are relatively resistant to anticompetitive practices because anyone with the knowhow can design a computer system or computer program. The creators of Linux are battling Microsoft with a product they built from scratch in their spare time. But in other industries, a monopoly is harder to beat. Wal-Mart is a great example; they are essentially impossible to undersell. Agricorps are another, since there's no way individual farmers can survive on the thin profit margins that sustain those companies.

Given enough time, every monopoly will eventually fall; Microsoft is now declining, and Wal-Mart's policies have generated tons of ill will among the public. But whenever a monopoly does fall it deals tremendous damage to the economy; imagine what will happen to the computer world when Microsoft finally goes down and everyone has to adjust to using new software. This is another reason that it's best to stop monopolies from happening in the first place.
 
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