Life vs Freedom

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This is very simple: I can't be enslaved, ever. Chains, iron bars, laws simply can't enslave a freeman. My mind will always be free, always. I will never surrender, never. Even if all the tools to resist are taken from me I will still resist. Freedom is always worth it. You don't have to get yourself killed to prove it. You may lose your physical freedom from time to time but in your mind and soul you can always be free. You certainly can choose to die before being deprived of your freedom but unless you really have to, I suggest you wait to fight another day.
 
Let Me Think...

Well, I can think of many situations I've lived under where I felt death would be better. Rather than turning belly up, I did something about the situation(s) I was in. Fortunately, those situations didn't require insurrection or rebellion; just divorce. But it did teach me that there can be no happiness or peace in simply being married(analogous to living and being governed for the sake of discussion). I had to find the right recipe for marriage(life) that would allow me happiness, and peace, and discovered something new that I had never thought possible in a marriage ... Freedom!

That marriage with the right recipe is analogous to life under the Constitution. It allows us happiness, a maintainable measure of peace, and freedom! No other form of governance compares. It has taken me far too many years to come to this epiphany, but it is never to late - or too soon - for any of us to realize what our true love is, its worth, and that such things are never to be surrendered to those who would take without right.

It is, therefore, ageless. It isn't necessarily that an older person might feel, "Hey, my life is near the end so I'll go ahead and take the stand for posterity", and it isn't necessarily the young man feeling it's something he has a simple duty to do, though both might be the situation in many cases. It's more that it is the right thing to do. Freedom is worth it.

Woody

Oh yes, and buy those arms you've always wanted and a goodly stock of ammo. The time may come that all we'll have is how we've prepared ourselves today. B.E. Wood
 
I have a Tat on my right shoulder that reads:

"You Can't Enslave A Free Man
You Can Only Kill Him"

I am a Free Man and I believe this to be true.

Biker
 
Without freedom I could still most likly be happy.

Livestock and family pets seem quite content without freedom.

Some folks seem happiest without their freedom, and tend to divest themselves of it at every opportunity.

Perhaps it's a genetic trait.
 
James A. Donald said:
The usual road to slavery is that first they take away your guns, then they take away your property, then last of all they tell you to shut up and say you are enjoying it.

#2 seems about half done, #1 is getting there, and #3 is just beginning.
 
William Wallace was transported to London and tried for treason and the execution of civilians and prisoners at Westminster Hall where he was crowned with a garland of oak to suggest that he was the king of outlaws. He responded to the treason charge, "I could not be a traitor to Edward, for I was never his subject."

This was for Freedom cause!

He Was 29 maybe 35 (birth year has been disputed)

God was all about freedom..........
Lucifer was all about control, greed, honor and glory to himself........

If we do not subject our self to God, which tyrant will we kneel to?

It is Freedoms way...Or it is the way of Tyranny.
 
The real question is not whether you would die for your freedom, but would you kill for your freedom? Do you kill the slave master, even if he is kind and only has your best interests at heart, knowing that you will be branded a murderer, or insane. Wouldn't knowing that your children and their legacy would look at you as colaborators or at least victims of their slavery, hopeful that the next slave master will be as kind and gentle as the last or the next is better? Nat Turner was a slave who fought back against the slave masters. He and his cohorts lost and the result was draconian laws against slaves not slavery itself. You must not be willing to accept slavery rather than hardship or death, if only for future generations.
 
"No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were. Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee." John Donne 1624

When we are free the bell is a signal, a cue to act, a reason to be. When we are not free, the bell is just a noise. Freedom is the ability to choose to answer or ignore the bell. If we are told to ignore it or forced to answer it we are not free. Which condition is preferable is a personal choice. I prefer living to existing.
 
I would choose liberty over life as a slave. I would die for my own liberty rather than live a slave or have my children live as slaves.
 
Is life more important than freedom?

I see this two ways.

On one hand, when it comes down to a personal decision of action vs. inaction, it really depends on the individual. The same would apply (potentially in reverse!) in a self-defense situation: is your life more important than either the other person's freedom, or regrettably, your own freedom from internal torment later on in your life over having killed another? For some, that's a non-starter - they don't want to even think about it, and would rather "risk it".

Yes, I realize this could be deemed as an argument of "moral relativity". But the meaning of the word "freedom" isn't absolute. What is freedom to one person might be slavery to others. Freedom might be having no responsibilities, no concerns, no oppression, no needs unfilled - it all depends on the person and their mindset. So, in reality, the argument is deeper than just "freedom or life?"

Christians believe (if they take the modern interpretation of the Pauline doctrine to heart) that a life of sin is one worth not living - that it is, literally, slavery to sin. Some Muslims believe that it is a sin for women to be treated as men, and for them to expose any part of their body. Some people believe that those sins are, themselves, liberating, and that the dogmas that encourage the restriction of those sins to be slavery.

Until we get that email from God telling us which is what, the only thing we can do is act honestly based on our conscience, and what we think is the right thing to do.

For some, that choice is to accept life, and for others it is to chose freedom (using the likely intended meaning of both for this argument). Different people are capable of different degrees of strength, and we all come into situations with different impressions of what things are. When it comes down to it, you can't force a person to accept your version of freedom - to deny their own cultural upbringing (they've got to ask themselves to do that, after an analysis - and that's not something you're going to force someone to do). Yes, you've got to argue for your point of view and attempt to reinforce the culture

This is kind of a difficult question to answer, because it can be rephrased in a number of different ways, given a person's perspective. Consider:
- Life or freedom?
- Selfish or selfless?
- selfless or selfish?
- preserve or protect?
- promiscuous or pious?
- wait, what? - they're not mutually exclusive?

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter, sorta. They're a bit discombobulated, but hopefully I've conveyed my feelings well enough to impart a new idea in someone's mind.
 
Some folks seem happiest without their freedom, and tend to divest themselves of it at every opportunity.

Perhaps it's a genetic trait.

That's possible, and I'd argue probable, but with the caveat that it's probably largely cultural as well. Culture takes a very, very long time to die - as evidenced by the fact that modern culture still has many characteristics of ancient Hebrew, Roman, and Indian cultures (all of which were, at one time in one way or another, culturally dominant in the ancestral cultures of the West).

Personally, the "genetic" angle appears to be quite evident in my family. My parents came drastically different stock - my mom, Dutch/Irish/Nordic/German (warriors or those who have fought off slavery quite often throughout history), and my dad Sicilian/English (largely slaves or subjects throughout history - or at least, in the case of the English, in recent times). I'm much more like my mom's side of the family, both physically and mentally (much bigger on rights, philosophy, and independence) and my siblings like my father's side (more respecting of authority, mostly happy as a part of the system, etc.).
 
The older guy had the opportunity to start a family and the young guy is the only one to risk his bloodline
I find that odd... ANY ambivalence I had fled with the appearance of children.

Want to mess with me? I might just take it and keep my mush shut.

Want to enslave my kids? Different story altogether. I won't live long enough for the kids to curse me one day for having done nothing.
 
American

Handgunner, this month (July/August) has an interesting article by Jeff Snyder that touches on this.
He concludes that civil disobedience of the Thoreau sort is more effective at preserving liberty than violence. He cites Timothy McVeigh as an example.
Great thread.
 
Are you free now?

Before the "Civil War", about 10% of the population was 100% enslaved (had their labor expropriated by force).

Now, almost 100% of the population is 50% enslaved. Our chains are more comfortable.

But most of us don't see it that way. Instead, it's "just the way things are". You have to "be realistic".

How bad does it have to get until...?
 
How bad does it have to get until...?

You mean until making an Alamo-like last stand against the forces of dependence and subjection?:confused:
 
Snyder's theroy is not new. It is quite rare when a conflict resolves and there is more freedom than before the conflict started.
 
It just so happens that I was reading last night about when the Spaniards first came to the 'New World'. Good timing I guess. Anyway, when they started enslaving everybody it caused some resentment and eventually led to revolt. When the revolt was pretty much totally ineffective (and this is the part that was news to me) there was an extremely high rate of suicide. If you're trying to figure out which is more important, freedom or life, I think that gives you a pretty good hint.
All the quotes people have posted also reminded me of another quote from the movie 'Open Range'. Thet're talking in the bar, the guy says he didn't want to risk losing his sons, and Costner says "Some things gnaw at a man worse than dying."
There's one other thing you have to remember though. Freedom is a terrible burden, not everybody is up to it. There will always be people who would just rather be taken care of.
 
There's one other thing you have to remember though. Freedom is a terrible burden, not everybody is up to it. There will always be people who would just rather be taken care of.

Being taken care of is one thing, and I wouldn't put in the same category as being enslaved. Being taken care of is more akin to being the slave master than the slave!

Be careful who you choose to stand behind and support. If you are unwilling to take care of yourself, you must take what comes along. I've yet to see a flock of sheep, no matter how well cared for and tended, that doesn't get fleeced from time to time and eventually end up on the dinner table. Not many sheep die a natural death.

Woody

Look at your rights and freedoms as what would be required to survive and be free as if there were no government. Governments come and go, but your rights live on. If you wish to survive government, you must protect with jealous resolve all the powers that come with your rights - especially with the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. Without the power of those arms, you will perish with that government - or at its hand. B.E. Wood
 
yeah, what biker said . . . . .

I don't have it tattooed on my arm but I'm an American - its in my DNA.
 
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