Little bulge when seating .45 ACP

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yober

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Hi, newb problem here setting up my Lee Classic 4 hole Turret. I'm getting correct OAL on a few dummy rounds I'm rolling, and I'm taper crimping to about .473 (with a resized .468 or thereabouts case), but I keep getting a minuscule bulge on the case corresponding to the bottom of my Berry's plated .452 (now .450?) bullet, now seated. What am I doing wrong in my setup?

How far down is the taper crimp effective? Does it have to get the mouth the same size as the rest of the case when everything's said and done? Seems like the bullet is expanding the case along the length necessary to fit it. It's probably just me....
 
It's normal to have a little bulge where the bullet is seated. We call that "coke bottle effect" and it's a good thing, it means you have sufficient neck tension. We do not taper crimp to hold a bullet, that's done with case tension.

The question I have is why are your bullets being sized to .450"? Generally I like to taper crimp to .471"-.470".
 
I think the seating die makes some bullets (lead?) slightly smaller. Don't know about plated, but I took all the crimping function out of the seating die and used the 4th factory crimp die as the last, separate step.
 
So why are my factory reloads relatively flat with their mixed head stamps? You'd think some of them might bulge there?
 
It's normal to have a little bulge where the bullet is seated. We call that "coke bottle effect" and it's a good thing, it means you have sufficient neck tension. We do not taper crimp to hold a bullet, that's done with case tension.

The question I have is why are your bullets being sized to .450"? Generally I like to taper crimp to .471"-.470".
This... exactly!
 
.452 + (2x.011) = .474 give or take. The .011 is the wall thickness; some cases are more.
 
A small bulge in the case at the base of the bullet is normal. I have no idea how factory ammo eliminates these bulges. The seating die does not make lead bullets smaller. If you try to get that bulge out for sure you are going to make the bullet smaller.
 
.452 + (2x.011) = .474 give or take. The .011 is the wall thickness; some cases are more.


Yober, I appreciate your math but the reason we taper crimp is to remove the flare on the case and assist feeding. There are many pistols out there that will not feed ammo that is .472" or greater. I've had several myself.
 
You don't want to overthink this, especially since you're just starting out. The case swell is normal. Without it, your bullets will setback when they hit the feed ramp and reduce case volume, which in turn raises chamber pressures.

Don't worry about how factory rounds look. A lot of them use a neck sealing tar to help hold the bullet in place, and some don't, but the case is made to exactly the right diameter for that first loading. Once it's fired, your sizing die has to bring it back, or slightly less, than the diameter of the original. Most factory jacketed bullets are .451" in diameter, while plated and cast bullets are normally sized .452" diameter, since they're softer and will conform to the bore more easily than jacketed bullets will. Berry's made their bullets .452" on purpose.

As long as they will chamber in your firearm(s), and the load is correct, you're good to go.

Last week I loaded up a another run of 2,700 rounds of .45 acp ammunition and every one of them has a small amount of case bulge.

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
.470 to .471 is what I'm typically expect to see.... but Bullet dia. + 2x case wall thickness is what I'm really looking for.... maybe .001 under that....

keep in mind that brass wall thickness varies with RP on the thinner side and Federal on the thicker side.

A caliper will often introduce a slight error when measuring the wall thickness of a curved surface, however, due to the tapered section of your caliper jaws having a very slight flat to it (i.e. it doesn't taper down to zero like a knife edge)

When loading cast or plated, it's not uncommon at all to have a slight bulge in the brass. And when loading cast with thicker brass, it's not uncommon (nor is it desireable) too feel a bump on the LFCD post sizing ring.

I save my thin walled brass for cast, and use my thick walled brass on jacketed.... but that's just me.

As long as they pass the plunk test in your chamber, you're all set.
 
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I love this place....

Thanks for the advice, I was kinda sweatin' it.

Last week I loaded up a another run of 2,700 rounds of .45 acp ammunition ...

Holy crap, what did you do it on? I have the Classic Turret from Lee and I have to make 1500 rounds by mid July for a class I'm taking. I need to get humpin'....
 
So why are my factory reloads relatively flat with their mixed head stamps? You'd think some of them might bulge there?
There is a very simple reason why your reloads have a bulge, and someone else's loads (such as factory) might not have any bulge.

Your reloads are using cases that have been sized by your own, unique sizing die, which might be a bit tight. Your sized cases measure .468. Another sizing die might produce an OD on the case of .471... in which case there is no noticeable bulge when the bullet is seated.

It might be a good idea to pull some rounds and measure the base with calipers. A tight sizing die can lead to damage to cast and plated bullets. This may result in decreased accuracy. Oversized expanders will sometimes greatly increase the quality of your reloads, if the sizing die is tight.
 
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Yober,

I load on a Hornady LnL progressive press for my large runs, but I also have several other presses I can use (Hollywood, RCBS, Load-a-Matic). I have to get busy and load another couple thousand .38's, since my wife and I went through a little over 1,000 rounds between us at a big match over this past weekend. Then there's the shotgun rounds to load...........

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
Neck sealing tar? I wondered what that black crap was on the inside of some once-fired brass I bought...
 
There is a very simple reason why your reloads have a bulge, and someone else's loads (such as factory) might not have any bulge.

Your reloads are using cases that have been sized by your own, unique sizing die, which might be a bit tight. Your sized cases measure .468. Another sizing die might produce an OD on the case of .471... in which case there is no noticeable bulge when the bullet is seated.

It might be a good idea to pull some rounds and measure the base with calipers. A tight sizing die can lead to damage to cast and plated bullets. This may result in decreased accuracy. Oversized expanders will sometimes greatly increase the quality of your reloads, if the sizing die is tight.
So, if it is too tight, should I just ask to return it?
 
That is your prerogative. OTOH, you can also get a die that is too loose. And some of your brass won't hold a jacketed bullet with full neck tension. Sizing dies seem to come in a range of what is considered acceptable.

I personally rather have a die that is a little tight and to fix it with expanders for my specific bullets rather than too loose. But if you are lucky, you can get one that is just exactly right for you and your bullets. I don't own a die that meets that description. The variation in brass, and variation in what I shoot (both jacketed and cast), makes that perfect die somewhat of a unicorn.

If a die is exactly sized to make, say, thin R-P brass just the right size for a jacketed bullet, then you can still come across a thinner piece of brass, here and there, and if you're not paying attention you can have a setback high pressure event. Your thicker brass will still be slightly tight for seating a bullet. IAnd if you're particular about your shooting, you will still want an oversize expander for larger, softer plated and cast bullets.

If, OTOH, you use an expander to make the brass exactly the right size for a bullet, it will work in all brass, as long as the sizing die is tight enough. Notice the expander is working directly on the interior diameter of the case, which is what is important. The sizing die is working on the outer diameter of the case, which means the ID will vary between cases.

So for a size die, somewhat undersize is actually perfect. Consider bushing neck sizing for rifle brass. Depending on the brass, you need to use a different bushing to get the ID where you want it. Trying to use the sizing die to get perfect neck size of a pistol case is a little bit of a fools errand (even though this is often what is happening in many die sets). The rifle guys using these kinds of dies are using matched headstamps and/or turned case necks. Not so many people do that with their pistol brass. This is why we have expanders and not just one universal flare die for all our ammo.

But all that said, I do think that 468 OD of your sized base is needlessly small by at least a mil. If you want to shoot only one kind of bullet, you might want to roll the dice and try another. If you want to really be nit picky and shoot the most accurate ammo you can, you will end up using custom expanders for your soft/oversize bullets, anyway. Having a tight die ensures that you can carefully control the ID of your cases with expanders, at the expense of an additional one-time, upfront investment of time and money and effort.

It might be a good idea to pull some rounds and measure the base with calipers.
This is one of the litmus tests to see if your sizing die is too tight for your bullet (or expander too small, if that's the way you want to look at it; but note that all factory pistol expanders are too small for plated bullets, by default). Be sure to measure all the way around the base. A tight case isn't the same as a bullet sizer. The bullet might measure the same diameter all the way around, except for a flat spot that is undersize. Pull the bullets from your thickest cases to check for this kind of damage.
 
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If you use an expander to make the brass exactly the right size for a bullet, it will work in all brass, as long as the die is tight enough.

I've never seen an expander. Do they come in carbide? What does it look like and where can I get one?
 
Your flare die has an expander/flare plug in it. It's what you are using to flare your case mouth. They are almost always made of steel, except for some rifle die sets.

You can buy or make expanders to any size/shape you desire, between aftermarket vendors and custom machinists.

FWIW, I preferentially use expander plugs of about exactly equal diameter as the bullet I am seating. For a 452 bullets, I would preferentially use a 451 1/2-452 diameter expander with a .455-456 flare step to open the case mouth.... IF I had a tight sizing die in that caliber. My own 45ACP die happens to be one of my loose ones. I barely get the right tension for my cast bullets, and I have to sort cases for jacketed, so a larger expander wouldn't do anything for my 45ACP. For comparison, a stock expander for 45ACP is typically only 448-449, and some of the factory semiauto caliber plugs are too short to expand, anyway. They're often too short and too small to do anything but flare the case mouth.

I use oversized expanders in my 9mm and 40/10. In these calibers my sizing die is tight, like yours, and I get the distinct "coke-bottle" effect. The base of a cast bullet is damaged, if I use a normal expander. My 9mm expander is 356 with a 360 flare for cast bullets of 356 diameter. My 40 cal expander is 401 with a 404 flare for cast bullets of 401 diameter.
 
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There's an expander in your Lee dies, it's called the "powder-through expander die". The expander is a little hollow piece inside the die that slightly bells the case mouth so you can set your bullet for seating. The expander also pushes up on the powder dispenser and activates that, which then dumps the powder down through the expander into the case.

When you finish dumping powder and raise the handle back up, it'll feel like it's sticking in the case and "jerking". This is normal, the expander has a slightly rough finish so it will do this, it's to give the powder dispenser a "kick" to shake loose any powder that didn't drop.
 
Your flare die has an expander/flare plug in it. It's what you are using to flare your case mouth. They are almost always made of steel, except for some rifle die sets.

You can buy or make expanders to any size/shape you desire, between aftermarket vendors and custom machinists.

FWIW, I preferentially use expander plugs of about exactly equal diameter as the bullet I am seating. For a 452 bullets, I would preferentially use a 451 1/2-452 diameter expander with a .455-456 flare step to open the case mouth.... IF I had a tight sizing die in that caliber. My own 45ACP die happens to be one of my loose ones. I barely get the right tension for my cast bullets, and I have to sort cases for jacketed, so a larger expander wouldn't do anything for my 45ACP. For comparison, a stock expander for 45ACP is typically only 448-449, and some of the factory semiauto caliber plugs are too short to expand, anyway. They're often too short and too small to do anything but flare the case mouth.

I use oversized expanders in my 9mm and 40/10. In these calibers my sizing die is tight, like yours, and I get the distinct "coke-bottle" effect. The base of a cast bullet is damaged, if I use a normal expander. My 9mm expander is 356 with a 360 flare for cast bullets of 356 diameter. My 40 cal expander is 401 with a 404 flare for cast bullets of 401 diameter.

So, I have one already (... I knew that), but I'm not putting enough flare/bell/whatever on the case? Or are you saying this powder through expanding die won't compensate for a case that's slimmed too much? I searched for a Lee expander die and all I get is there universal one, the key components of which look like what I already have.
 
That little bulge as you call it is of no consequence. I get it on most on my 9s and all of my Makarovs. I get it also on my 45ACPs and 40s. Don't make a problem for yourself when none exists. :)
 
Or are you saying this powder through expanding die won't compensate for a case that's slimmed too much?
Not with the plug that came with your die set.

I searched for a Lee expander die and all I get is there universal one, the key components of which look like what I already have.

Lee doesn't offer a plug for plated or cast bullets. For a 451 to 452 plated bullet, I would use something like this, personally.
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=89&products_id=1613

For 452 cast bullets, specifically, I would opt for this, personally:
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=89&products_id=1614

You will have to measure your bullets to be sure. I think some of the Rainier plated usually measure .4515, rather than .452, for instance.

You either need to buy a Lee Universal Flare die body to use these plugs:
http://leeprecision.com/universal-case-expanding-die.html

Or you can use a Lee 45ACP flare die body, if you already have one, but you will have to stick a piece of dowel between the funnel/nut and the plug. But these particular NOE plugs are not powder-thru, in case that matters to you.

I dunno what the dimensions are on the Lee 45Colt of 454 Casull expanders. They might work, but I am not sure.

As some folks have opined, you might not benefit from this, and you certainly don't need it for plated bullets unless long range accuracy matters. Popular opinion is what it is, and it is often worth exactly what you paid for it. But with your tight sizing die, soft plated bullets may be affected, although some plated bullet manufacturers are using harder alloys to guard against this problem. Again, this is something you can check for yourself in just a few minutes with a bullet puller and calipers. Or you can put some bullets on paper to see if your ammo satisfies your needs.

Now mind you, with plated bullets, the only thing that this expander might do for you is to increase your long range accuracy - especially past 25 yards. (With cast, it can also decrease fouling and smoke). And it will not remove the coke-bottle bulge from your ammo. It's just that the expander will make the bulge before you seat the bullet.
 
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I think you're worrying about a non-issue. If your finished rounds will fit in your pistol barrel's chamber easily, they're fine! Called a "plunk test". If they drop in and go "plunk", choot 'em!
 
I think you're worrying about a non-issue. If your finished rounds will fit in your pistol barrel's chamber easily, they're fine! Called a "plunk test". If they drop in and go "plunk", choot 'em!

I agree that this is the prevailing attitude. And this is one reason why plated bullets are so popular. Also, powder coated bullets are now increasing in popularity, having much lower startup costs than plating for smaller bullet manufacturers. A lot of people are even doing this themselves.

The coated/plated bullets make the fit of the brass much less important in many ways. And that's a good thing. Manufacturers providing these projectiles are giving us consumers the best chance at making good ammo.

It is still a good thing to get your brass to fit, correctly. If you do have an over-tight sizing die, then it costs a few bucks to buy an expander. But it's a one time investment that will improve the accuracy potential of every round you make, thereafter. And you will also be able to transition to cast bullets with minimal trouble.

Because sizing dies vary, and some reloaders think that at least some amount of leading and decreased accuracy for cast/plasted bullets vs jacketed bullets is normal, even seasoned reloaders may not be familiar with this problem and all the potential solutions/improvements. They might see the plating/coating as the solution.

Ammo manufacturers can select from scores of sizing dies for specific lots of brass and bullets. We usually use mixed brass, so some bulge in some of our ammo is perfectly acceptable if we have the right expanders. Some reloaders even acquire multiple sizing dies, and some manufacturers offer "cowboy" sizing dies that are looser, specifically for oversize cast bullets. That is another option you might consider, since you want to load oversize plated bullets, and you have a tight sizing die. This option will remove the "coke-bottle" bulge and may even improve neck/bullet concentricity and thus accuracy. But even with a loose/cowboy sizing die, you might still want an oversize expander to get maximum accuracy if you are going to use mixed brass.

Because we can easily control the exact size of the bullet, thru purchasing decisions or thru bullet sizers, it is a little more convenient to control ID with an expander. We can only ever sort or turn/ream our brass, and that is more work. Especially when we are flinging our brass onto the ground every time we shoot it, often picking up other random cases in the process.
 
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