Little Murdering Thugs

[Beren]

This news story brought to mind an interesting question. If a vehicle stops and the occupants order you to turn over money but you don't see any firearms, how do you react, assuming there is no cover immediately available? What if you don't SEE a gun, but they threaten to shoot you? My immediate temptation would be to draw and fire on the vehicle while manuvering to cover, but that would likely end up with me in a jail cell.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/trib/pittsburgh/s_207441.html

A Garfield teen who surrendered to face charges in the robbery of a former city police commander was charged Monday with the slaying of a University of Pittsburgh student in Squirrel Hill.

Delbert Williams, 16, was charged with criminal homicide after telling city homicide detectives he shot 27-year-old Frank Ogiri-Little early Wednesday because the global studies student refused repeated demands to turn over any money he was carrying, according to a criminal complaint.

The complaint and Pittsburgh police say Williams and two other men were joyriding in a stolen car "looking for someone to rob."

Williams also is charged with carjacking, conspiracy, robbery and firearms violations for being one of at least two men who robbed former city police Cmdr. Gwen Elliott on July 31, police said.

City police Lt. Kevin Kraus said Williams did not become a suspect in the slaying of Ogiri-Little until after police began searching for him in connection with the carjacking.

Kraus would not comment on other possible suspects in either case.

Ogiri-Little was walking home to Lawrenceville after leaving some friends at a Squirrel Hill cafe.

Williams and the others were riding in a sport utility vehicle they had stolen Aug. 3 in Garfield, Kraus said.

"They rode around Shadyside, Oakland and Squirrel Hill, looking for a vulnerable target," he said.

The trio came upon Ogiri-Little, the son of a Pittsburgh-area man and a Nigerian mother, walking at the corner of South Negley Avenue and Fair Oaks Street.

"Delbert said that they repeatedly told the victim to give them his money but the victim kept refusing," according to the criminal complaint.

Kraus also said Ogiri-Little refused an order to turn around and start running.

After Ogiri-Little refused a final demand for money, Williams pulled out a black .380 caliber handgun and shot him, the criminal complaint states.

Ogiri-Little died of multiple gunshot wounds to the neck and torso, Kraus said. The assailants fled without taking any money.

The weapon used in the shooting is not the same type of weapon that was stolen from Elliott, who also refused to run when a gun was placed against her head outside her home as she returned from church.

Elliott, who retired in 2002 after 26 years on the force, was cleaning out her BMW sport utility vehicle in preparation for an outing with her grandchildren when she was accosted.

Her vehicle, identification badge and gun, cell phone, slide projector and $700 in cash she had withdrawn from the bank were stolen.

The vehicle and projector were later recovered.

Williams was charged with the carjacking on Sunday after surrendering to police. He was interviewed again yesterday before being charged with homicide.

He was arraigned before deputy coroner Jim Johnson and jailed without bond to await a coroner's hearing scheduled for Aug. 23.

 

[Beren]

Here's another article that clarifies the situation more. Evidently two of the Little Murdering Thugs got out of the vehicle to confront the victim.

Note that in the earlier incident, one Thug was waving a handgun as he approached. Would that be enough to make you draw down, seek cover, and shoot?

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04223/359334.stm

A 16-year-old Garfield boy who turned himself in to police Sunday on charges he stole a retired Pittsburgh police commander's vehicle, gun and badge was charged last night in the fatal shooting of a college student in Squirrel Hill.


Peter M. Borsh, Post-Gazette
Delbert Williams, 16, center, is led into the Allegheny County Coroner's office last night for his arraignment in the slaying of Frank Ogiri-Little. Homicide detectives Dennis Logan, left, and Timothy Rush are escorting Williams.
Click photo for larger image.


Police do not believe the gun used in the Aug. 4 slaying of Frank Ogiri-Little, 27, was the one taken from retired Cmdr. Gwen Elliott on July 31, Pittsburgh police Lt. Kevin Kraus of the investigations branch said at a news conference last night.

As he was being led into the Allegheny County coroner's office for arraignment on the homicide charge last night, the suspect, Delbert Williams of Dearborn Street, apologized for the crimes.

"I just want to say I'm sorry to the people I've hurt, the family of Frank [Ogiri]-Little and Gwen Elliott," Williams told a reporter.

Kraus said Williams and other young men were riding around in the early morning hours of Aug. 4 in a stolen Jeep Cherokee looking for someone to rob. They searched in Oakland, Shadyside and Squirrel Hill but many they saw weren't alone so they passed them by, Kraus said.

And then they saw Ogiri-Little, walking alone at about 1:08 a.m. on South Negley Avenue at Fair Oaks Street, a normally placid neighborhood of expensive homes. Friends said he often walked the city's streets late at night.

"They selected him as an easy target," Kraus said.

An affidavit of probable cause filed in the case said Williams told police he and another man got out of the car, leaving another youth inside the vehicle, and demanded money from Ogiri-Little.


Frank Ogiri-Little

Kraus said Ogiri-Little refused. They demanded his backpack, and Ogiri-Little refused again.

The suspects then told Ogiri-Little, a part-time student at the University of Pittsburgh, to turn around and run off in the opposite direction. Again he refused their order and multiple gunshots were fired at him, killing him.

Police recovered the stolen Jeep, not far from Williams' home, Kraus said.

While not blaming the victim, Kraus advised the public not to resist robbers.

"The best course of action is to comply. Cmdr. Elliott complied and thankfully she wasn't shot. The other victim was shot when he refused. In a situation like that, the best advice is to comply fully."

Asked about the relatively young age of the suspect, Kraus said he no longer is surprised by such an occurrence because "a lot of violent crimes in the city are commited by people in that age category."

Ogiri-Little was a poet, abstract painter and rock climber who worked at Free Ride!, a nonprofit shop in Point Breeze that recycles bicycles, until about 11 p.m. the night before his death.

After leaving Free Ride!, Ogiri-Little stopped in at the Squirrel Hill Cafe, had a beer or two, chatted with a roommate, and then left about 12:50 a.m. He was headed on foot to his home in Lawrenceville and made it about six blocks before he was killed.

Ogiri-Little was born in Pittsburgh but moved to Nigeria at an early age and lived there for a number of years. He returned to Pennsylvania, living first in Mercer County and then moving to Point Breeze. Friends said Ogiri-Little graduated from Allderdice High School in 1994.

During her robbery, Elliott gave up her badge and sidearm, as well as her vehicle, laptop computer, cell phone and $700.

Police said Elliott was cleaning out her sport-utility vehicle at about 9:15 p.m. outside her home at Negley Avenue and Hays Street when two young men, one waving a handgun, approached and demanded her keys. Elliott handed them over and the men drove away.

Inside the silver X-model BMW were her police badge and identification, a .38-caliber Smith and Wesson revolver, a cell phone, laptop, slide projector and money. The affidavit of probable cause quoted Williams as saying he shot Ogiri-Little with a .380-caliber handgun.

Elliott's car was found Aug. 1 on South Millvale Avenue near West Penn Hospital in Bloomfield.

 

[nhhillbilly]

Best course of action is to comply???

When attacked. Best course of action is to comply. Have we given everthing up to the bad guys. Tell that to the victims of Charles Mason, Shannon Tate, Victims of the onion field. :banghead:

When accosted be ready to do maximum violence to stop the threat. Find cover and be moving. IF you look like a sheep you will be eaten.

 

[DevilDog]

Best course of action is to comply.

I hate this idea. We paid a severe price for "complying" on 9/11. On one flight, the passengers decided to not be sheep, and they saved countless lives.

Everytime someones complies to a criminal, the criminal's act, his behavior, is validated and encouraged.

Complying may cost you your life, but may save the life of others. As a general rule, criminals commit criminal acts only so long as it is easy. When it stops being easy, they will stop.

Complying means giving the criminal permission and authority over me. Why would I want to do that seeing how this person is proving that they have no sense of responsibility, decency or humanity?

Many studies indicate that rape victims who fight back emotionally recover better than those who didn't.

I don't care if all I have is 50 cents on me. I will not comply and give it up. I refuse to empower a criminal.

 

[Average Guy]

Don't be a target.
Perceive threat? Avoid threat.
See gun? Move, shoot, live.
Unarmed? MOVE!

If the alternative is to stand my ground, unarmed, and get shot, I think I'd "comply" with the BG's order to "run away."

 

[Hardtarget]

all this "defend yourself..shoot and live" is great...I do carry and intend to do just that...but...until we get LAWS that protect the victims
and STOP civil suits by the criminal and or his family, we may survive but we're screwed just for surviving. I don't understand how a jury can listen to how a fellow citizen was attacked/raped/robbed/murdered.and then give a huge financial reward to the criminal or family. The juries just turn the victim into double victims. sorry...this just rips me. If you shoot in this situation you are in deep deep trouble. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Mark.

 

[DevilDog]

Good point Hardtarget. You are right - once a person is put in a situation that calls for use of lethal force, that person is probably damned one way or another.

Reminds me of a conversation back when I used to carry a green ID card with reference to following an unlawful order. Don't follow the order, and you can get in trouble for disobeying it. Follow it and get in trouble for doing something wrong.

On lawsuits - one failing is in the media reporting on them. Many lawsuits are later overturned, but we never hear of that because a large settlement later denied does not make a good headline. A good example is the McDonald's hot coffee lawsuit which was overturned. Many folks are not aware of this. I suspect (and hope) many of these criminals sueing their victims lawsuits may be as well.

We do need more laws to protect real victims.

 

[Don Gwinn]

Wonder if it has occurred to that spokesman (as I bet it has to Mrs. Elliott by now, whether it's fair or not) that if she had resisted, Mr. Ogiri's death might have been prevented.

I am NOT suggesting that she is responsible for his death--she has to do what she believes is best in that situation, and since I won't share the consequences I won't rake her over the coals for doing so. But to say that this particular case proves the wisdom of compliance . . . no, I don't think that's supported. For a police officer to have complied with them must have given these dregs a sense of invincibility.

Don't know what else she could have done, though, if she was unarmed as the article suggests and her gun was in the vehicle.

 

[auschip]

On lawsuits - one failing is in the media reporting on them. Many lawsuits are later overturned, but we never hear of that because a large settlement later denied does not make a good headline. A good example is the McDonald's hot coffee lawsuit which was overturned. Many folks are not aware of this. I suspect (and hope) many of these criminals sueing their victims lawsuits may be as well.

Not quite, yes bad lawsuits take place every day, and some of them are in fact overturned with barely a blurb mentioned, but sometimes the lawsuits are good.

Regarding the McDonald's coffee lawsuit, it was in fact a good lawsuit (relatively speaking), and it wasn't overturned they in fact reduced the payment, and then the two later settled. Some of the details can be found in the link below.

http://www.atlanet.org/ConsumerMedi.../FACTS/frivolous/McdonaldsCoffeecase.aspx#WSJ

 

[Fred Fuller]

...rather be sued than buried...

Comply with felons? What is THAT all about? Why doesn't Pittsburgh police Lt. Kevin Kraus and his department practice what he preaches?

"Duh, ossifer, I wont annywhere around when that dude got shot."

"OK, kick him loose, he's innocent."

Riiiggght.

lpl/nc

 

[The Rabbi]

Hardtarget,
Here in the liberated state of TN the statute reads that neither the "victim" (read: criminal") or (better) his heirs can sue you if he was shot while trying to commit a crime. So if some low life accosts you and you are in reasonable fear of your life or safety and you nail the guy he cannot come back and sue you. I wish more states had this common sense approach. Even better is TX where shooting someone who is trying to steal your property is considered OK.

 

[tyme]

Rabbi, in Texas you cannot shoot someone to prevent someone from fleeing after mere theft of property during the daytime. It has to be during the nighttime or the result of a burglary, and only if a reasonable person would believe that nothing short of lethal force could recover the property.

Those caveats are vague; unless it's burglary with either grand theft or threat of violence, I'd be very nervous about shooting a thief, particulary in cities, over property, even if I thought the conditions for it to be legal had been met.

 

[UnknownSailor]

Getting out of a vehicle and coming towards me waving around a firearm is definitely gounds for getting plugged in my book.

 

[tyme]

Colleges ban carry or possession, even when the State is firearm-friendly.

People walking around late at night in college towns are probably students or professors.

Target-rich environments for thugs.

 

[iamhistory]

Best course of action is to comply.

Everytime someones complies to a criminal, the criminal's act, his behavior, is validated and encouraged

Right on DevilDog.................I have never complied in situtations like that, and that's not to say I wouldn't in a dire emergency if my wife or kids were in immediate danger if I acted, but I haven't so far.

My opinion is don't comply........you are probably screwed anyway in this day and age, so unleash your wrath upon them times ten in comparison to their actions and let them feel your fury.

I never, never go looking for problems and I always practice good situational awareness. Any potential problems are avoided if possible. Inevitably, we all find ouselves in an "oh s***" situation at some point. Maintain the upper hand, crush your aggressor and give him a taste of what being a victim is like.

You may not agree, but it works for me.

(edited for grammar & vocab errors I forgot to proofread)

 

[Island Beretta]

quite surprising that people still believe that we must comply with criminals.. I knew several persons who have complied with criminals and was killed, some even with their own guns.

One argument mentioned is that if the criminal had come to kill you you would have been dead already so the fact that the criminal is there talking means you are safe just don't upset him/her by not cooperating. Fact is some criminals get a kick from talking you up and watching you grovel before dispatching you minus your life..

difficult answers to difficult situations..what to do