I don’t think this one is going to turn out well

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by Jeff White, Mar 27, 2021.

  1. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Man intervenes in a domestic dispute. Kills one of the people involved. Other half of the domestic says she was never in danger:

    https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/st-louis-man-fatally-shot-by-neighbor-as-he-argues-with-pregnant-girlfriend/article_2efa36d4-94c6-51ed-a2fc-042311b9ffe9.html

    This is one witness:

    This is what the shooter told the press:

    This is what the girlfriend who the shooter says he was trying to save said to the media:

    Witnesses gave this account of the domestic dispute:

    So it looks like the “victim” was really the aggressor....not the first time I’ve seen that.

    What a mess. One dead, an unborn child who will never know his father, a citizen who intervened now having possible murder charges hanging over his head.

    I suspect there is more involved here then we the article tells us. I bet the Good Samaritan wishes he didn’t get involved.
     
  2. Phaedrus/69

    Phaedrus/69 Member

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    Yep, as the old saying goes, don't let stupid be your skillset.
     
  3. Hugger-4641

    Hugger-4641 Member

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    I learned my lesson about domestic situations many years ago. I was pumping gas and the couple on the next pump started fighting. He was beating her arse viciously and she was yelling for someone to help. I told him to stop, then put him on the ground with a leg sweep and then a headlock. Next thing I know she's cussing me and hitting me in the head. They both had prior domestics and police hauled them both off. Lesson learned: Keep my nose out unless I really have no choice or a child is involved.
    I would not be surprised at all to learn Mrs Renfro was yelling for help and now she's changed her story. Hope the good guy has a good lawyer.
     
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  4. Phaedrus/69

    Phaedrus/69 Member

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    Is there a good guy in this one? It's not obvious if so.
     
  5. Hugger-4641

    Hugger-4641 Member

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    Yeah, we'll probably never get the whole truth.
     
  6. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    Self defense goes out the window if you leave the fight to grab a gun from a vehicle. If the fight is calm enough you can get to your vehicle, you can drive away. And should.
     
  7. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    Said a number of beaten,bloodied women who were later killed by their "loved ones" male or female. Or said by instigators of violence playing victim for sympathy from outsiders.

    I bitterly know, the hard way, why cops hate to be called into a domestic situation. Cured me of wanting to play protector in a domestic. You seldom know what the true situation is.

    I have read that most homicides in America are avoidable if (a) you don't get drunk, get high, or start a fight with (b) a person you have had fights with in the past. The usual time is after 10pm on a weekend.

    Intervening in a mutual combat situation between strangers simply doesn't turn out well in most situations. They both may turn on you.
     
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  8. bdickens

    bdickens Member

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    Inserting oneself into the middle of someone else's domestic dispute is just monumentally stupid.
     
  9. patmccoy

    patmccoy Member

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    [QUOTE
    The witness told the Post-Dispatch that the man who was ultimately shot was arguing with the three other men when he got a gun from his vehicle and told them to keep their hands off him and leave him alone. One of the neighborhood men walked away but returned with a gun and shot the man in the head.

    Self defense goes out the window if you leave the fight to grab a gun from a vehicle. If the fight is calm enough you can get to your vehicle, you can drive away. And should][/QUOTE]

    And if you walk away you need to call police, not get a gun. I'd bet the shooters will be in much trouble, as he became the aggressor when he returned.
     
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  10. TRX

    TRX Member

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    Hopefully some nearby house or business has surveillance video.

    I carry a "spy pen", it's the size of a fat ballpoint and rides in my shirt pocket. Video is nothing to brag about, but if I'm ever involved in something that goes to court, it's better than nothing.
     
  11. Good Ol' Boy

    Good Ol' Boy Member

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    So much wrong with this one.

    But first and foremost never get involved as a civilian in the "vibrant" community. Thats true whether you live in that area or not.

    You only need to look at the stats to make that correlation.

    However this mindset holds true in any "neighborhood".
     
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  12. BLACKHAWKNJ

    BLACKHAWKNJ Member

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    "Shot the man in the head." While that is an excellent way of stopping a assailant using 1 shot -like shooting them in the back-it is also extremely hard to justify.
     
  13. Phaedrus/69

    Phaedrus/69 Member

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    What is a "vibrant" community?
     
  14. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Local TV news is reporting that cell phone video exists of the shooting. They didn’t show it though. So far the shooter hasn’t been charged and the victim’s family was on the news tonight demanding justice.
     
  15. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    I'm off duty driving through a bad neighborhood and I see a guy literally dragging a woman down the street by her hair. She is cursing up a storm screaming at him.

    I stop and identify myself, tell him to release her, and ask what's going on. She starts cursing me out and telling me to mind my own F'ing business. He couldn't have been more polite, telling her that I was only trying to help her. She continues to curse me out.

    I leave, thinking they deserve each other.

    Domestic disputes cause lots of injuries to those involved, or who get involved. Partners know how to push each other's buttons and enrage each other. Interlopers don't stand a chance, and either side or both will turn on you.

    As to the original situation, once someone was able to disengage, you are no longer in immediate fear for your life. Returning was a bad thing to do.
     
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  16. whughett

    whughett Member

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    Investigators, Judges and Juries. The full story isn’t explained in a few paragraphs on a forum. Nor can many here say, unless they have been involved in the past, with certainty how they would they would react to any given situation involving a gun threat.
    Popular reading in these pages however. And more frequently lately.

    Yes, in my brief stint as a LEO, domestics were the most difficult situations to handle.
     
  17. ojibweindian

    ojibweindian Member

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    Cold-hearted response; not ever getting involved in a DV situation. Ever. Too much at risk, and as far as I'm concerned, my family comes first, before anything or anyone else.
     
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  18. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    They guy who left was no longer in danger and had no need to arm and return EXCEPT to protect the woman who he saw as a victim.

    The problem there is that a domestic fight may be just an instance of an on-going state of mutual combat between the two, Saturday night fights being their normal, and picking sides will just cause you a lot of grief and trouble.
     
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  19. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    A call to the police of a person threatening with a gun will generally get a quick response.

    We see what is happening to the police now, where their every move is recorded and scrutinized. Even worse for a private citizen, especially since they're not indemnified.
     
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  20. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    I always think of it this way: getting involved - especially with a gun - can very possibly lead to the loss of everything I hold dear. My family, my property, my freedom, my life. So is getting involved worth it? It may someday be. If I came across a small child being sexually abused, for example, then yeah, I expect I'm going to do something about it and consequences be damned.

    A handful of jackasses slapping each other around on the stoop, though? Nope. Not a chance.
     
  21. fastbolt

    fastbolt Member

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    They had to pay me to intervene in Domestics when I wore a badge, and I was protected by a large LDF (legal defense fund) if the agency's attorney(s) decided to cover the agency instead of me in the aftermath of something. It wasn't all that uncommon for a victim to suddenly physically help the suspect in resisting a cop arresting the suspect.

    I can't begin to count the number of times a victim suddenly became very protective of the suspect/abuser once handcuffs went on the suspect/abuser. (But he has to go to work to support our family!!!)

    Coming late to the scene means there's no way to know what happened prior to your arrival. Not until you can separate the people involved and start taking statements, gathering evidence, etc.

    Now, while I won't typically stand idly by if some person is being beat upon, neither will I jump in and use force without knowing who's who in the zoo. Especially not now that I'm retired and can no longer invoke peace officer status to intervene in situations that aren't of my making.

    Before covid, when theaters were still open, I was walking through the parking lot one afternoon when I heard loud voices (male & female). There was some argument ramping up between a young couple in and around a pickup truck. Shouting, crying, etc. No blows, shoving or other hands-on, though. No weapons visible. I continued on inside the theater ... but kept an eye on things, since it was very close to the door and visible from inside the theater lobby.

    The participants were getting in and out of the PU, and the loud argument continued ... but no violence and no weapons produced or brandished. It reached a point where other young people (meaning females) went outside and tried to intrude in the argument (which added to the loud voices). Maybe they knew the people arguing. Dunno.

    I watched the theater staff watching this scene, a little curious to see what they would do, if anything. Would they call 911, or would I have to suggest it, as a concerned customer. Once I ascertained that the argument still wasn't escalating into physical violence, even with the added presence of the other passionate people wanting to intervene in the argument ... and saw a theater employee pick up the phone and apparently call 911 ... I watched for a little while longer, and then went about my business. Nothing I saw required my intervention and involvement, as nobody was being physically attacked and injured, no weapons of any kind were brought out, etc. Lots of attention among other theater patrons in the lobby by this time, though.
     
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  22. mjsdwash

    mjsdwash Member

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    A: you do nothing, everyone goes home. Victim gets beaten until they leave, or die.

    B: you intervene, YOU feel like a big man because you put an As!#%($ in their place. As%*#( goes home that night, beats the victim 3X as much as the would have, possibly to death. But hey, YOU got to be the bigshot.

    C: police get involved. Nothing happens. Victim is beaten for it.

    I tell people those are the only three options, because really, those are the only three options. I have never seen anything else come of it. I wish it weren't so, but there is nothing you can do, except make it worse.
     
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  23. Jack B.

    Jack B. Member

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    I carry for 1 reason. To protect my family and me. If you don't take measures to protect your self don't look for me to protect you. I'm not putting my family or myself in jeopardy.
     
  24. NathanHale

    NathanHale Member

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    (Quote) I have read that most homicides in America are avoidable if (a) you don't get drunk, get high, or start a fight with (b) a person you have had fights with in the past. The usual time is after 10pm


    Dont go stupid places with stupid people or do stupid things at stupid times.
    stated by John Correia
     
  25. toivo

    toivo Member

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    I've seen that one. In my musician days, I was playing in a club when I saw a guy start smacking the crap out of his girlfriend on the dancefloor. This club had a uniformed cop as security -- not sure why, might have been a local ordinance or something. So the cop pulls the guy off her and puts him on the ground. The next thing you know, she's on the cop's back, beating on him and screaming "Get your hands off him you effing pig!" etc.

    The cop won the day, and the couple both went out in handcuffs. The rest of the bar patrons applauded. It's good that the cop was there, because it could have turned into a full-on barroom brawl if some regular citizens had intervened. I've seen that happen too.
     
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