LnL - Totally appalled at these results

[HK SD9 Tactical]

You should be getting around 0.005" variation max. I would install the proper bullet seater to start with. Using the flat base on plated bullets is not a good idea. Then I would loose the Lee FCD if that's what your using on the crimp station, Taper crimp is OK. Next I would clean your seating die (completely disassemble it). I suspect you have something causing the floating stem to be hanging up. It may be the flat base causing side forces. Make sure your shell plate is tight. These loosen up with use unless you really tighten them.

I would run a few test with only one round at a time, checking your OAL. Without the crimp die. Note this will be different different than fully loaded. Mine runs about 0.010" difference. You should have a deviation of around 0.005". If good run the ones back through the taper crimp die and check your OAL. If it's different you found your problem. The TC should not change the OAL, that is the reason for doing it on a separate/final station.

I tried with the round nose stem at first and was experiencing the same problem and that is why I switched to the flat nose stem, thus eliminating the bullet length variations. I am using a Lee taper crimp die for the taper crimp #90780. It is not listed as a FCD, just a taper crimp. The dies were cleaned using Hornady One Shot GC&DL prior to using them in the LnL AP. I have always disassemble and cleaned my dies when I first got them and again when I thought that they needed it. More often than not, they did not need it but I cleaned them anyways as I had them disassembled. Shell plate was tight and never loosened. I checked it after every 50 or so rounds.

You may be right about the stem hanging on the side of the die. From what I can see, there is very minor wear marks on the side of both the flat nose and round nose seating stems. They both seem to move within the die body with hardly and resistance. I am not a machine-ist but I am versed in engineering and the parts seem to operate as they should.

I will follow the rest of your directions as I seat the .357 Mags this evening.

 

[HK SD9 Tactical]

I want to thank everyone that has responded to this thread. I am sure that a cause and cure can and will be found.

I am pretty sure that once the cause is identified, I'll be kicking myself in the pants as I suspect that it is something simple and easy to cure.

 

[dbarnhart]

Somewhere I have a book with the title "The answer is obvious once you know it". ;-)

I keep having to relearn the lesson that when something is not going right I should just set it aside for a couple of days and when I return the answer is almost always obvious.

 

[1SOW]

re "bullet length variations:

Most seating die stems come 'flat' so bullet variations have no affect on oal. The distance from the stem to the shell plate is consistent with a consistent handle pull. The change from bullet length variations is the "seating depth".

In addition to the good ideas above, I've found having a full deliberate and consistent handle pull is important for consistent oals. I've also found that having mixed brass affects the oals.

For ME: ATK 9mm brass (FED, SPEER, CCI, BLAZER, *-*+) brass is 'softer' than WIN, PPU and R&P brass . So, if you have a several WINS and make the same pull with the next FED case, the bullet seats deeper. This is why I started sorting by headstamp, and it improved my oals noticeably.

EDIT TO ADD: Actually, I sometimes sort by the two "types of brass" -- hard brass & softer brass-- I mention above.

Just a thought. YMMV

 

[newrugersafan]

Here are a couple of things to try.....

Run a batch with the same head stamp and check to see if it is more consistant. If it is the different neck tension caused by different head stamps is the problem. The o-rings on the bushings allow some play in the die if one piece of brass needs more force to seat the bullet the bushing will lift more then than one needing less force. You can see this happening if you watch the die.

If this is the case you can use a wrench on the lock ring to tighten the bushing and take the play out of the o-ring or call Hornady and get the shims that they offer.

Mike

 

[Walkalong]

ISOW is correct, 9mm brass is widely different among the multitude of headstamps available. Sorting by headstamp will help O.A.L., and if you are shooting for extreme accuracy, it will help that as well. For us plinkers, it doesn't matter much.

Another thing that affects O.A.L. is case length, not in its self, but because of the crimp. The longer cases get more crimp and put more pressure on the press, flexing it more than a short case getting virtually no crimp. And again, sorting by headstamp will help that too. This is only for turrets and progressives.

 

[HK SD9 Tactical]

I seem to have a copy of that book too.

 

[HK SD9 Tactical]

re "bullet length variations:

Most seating die stems come 'flat' so bullet variations have no affect on oal. The distance from the stem to the shell plate is consistent with a consistent handle pull. The change from bullet length variations is the "seating depth".

In addition to the good ideas above, I've found having a full deliberate and consistent handle pull is important for consistent oals. I've also found that having mixed brass affects the oals.

For ME: ATK 9mm brass (FED, SPEER, CCI, BLAZER, *-*+) brass is 'softer' than WIN, PPU and R&P brass . So, if you have a several WINS and make the same pull with the next FED case, the bullet seats deeper. This is why I started sorting by headstamp, and it improved my oals noticeably.

Just a thought. YMMV

I made sure that all handle pulls were consistent and full motion. Even though I was not priming on the LnL, I made sure to push the handle all the way forward (for practice more or less). I also made sure that the handle was all the way down for each stroke. I have the handle from ultimatereloaders.com (the ergonomic one) and paid particular attention to full stroking the machine (no derogatory comments please).

As far as the mixed brass, as I mentioned, it was about 50/50 with FC and Speer. As I do the run for my .357 Mags, I will keep this in mind and make sure that I only use one type of brass for the loads.

Something tells me that it might have something to do with the PTX setup. Even though I went through the instructions three times and was positive that it was set up correctly, I think that I will just use an bell die and take out the PTX expanders until this is resolved.

 

[HK SD9 Tactical]

ISOW is correct, 9mm brass is widely different among the multitude of headstamps available. Sorting by headstamp will help O.A.L., and if you are shooting for extreme accuracy, it will help that as well. For us plinkers, it doesn't matter much.

Another thing that affects O.A.L. is case length, not in its self, but because of the crimp. The longer cases get more crimp and put more pressure on the press, flexing it more than a short case getting virtually no crimp. And again, sorting by headstamp will help that too. This is only for turrets and progressives.

Will also keep this in mind. Hope to post the results of the .357 run today.

 

[DILLONHELP]

What I am suggesting is to remove the bullet seat stem from the die, insert the nose of the bullet into the seat stem, then use calipers to measure from the top of the bullet sseat stem to the bottom of the bullet. If the seat stem is contacting the sides of the bullet, then this measured dimension will vary, dependent upon where the contact diameter is on the bullet.

 

[HK SD9 Tactical]

Got it. So use the round nose seating stem, place the bullet into the round nose seating stem and using calipers, measure the length from the bottom of the bullet to the top of the seating stem, thus providing data on the variations in the ogive of the bullets, providing that all the bullets measured have the same length.

I will measure some bullets to obtain a sampling of bullets that are the same length (ie, take about 50 bullets with a length of .595in), place each in the seating stem, and then measure the oveall length for the ogive variations.

I will provide the data once it is completed.

 

[243winxb]

No dies should come in contact with the shell plate. A variation of .010" maximum is common on progressives. Single stage runs .005" maximum.

 

[HK SD9 Tactical]

No dies should come in contact with the shell plate. A variation of .010" maximum is common on progressives. Single stage runs .005" maximum.

No die touched the shell plate and any time.

I expected that there would be some variations and am glad that it should be limited to .010in maximum. Hopefully I will get within this tolerance.

 

[GaryL]

I didn't read every single response (since some of them were off topic), but are you measuring to the tip of the bullet? And have you tried measuring to the ogive?

 

[ironhead7544]

I have noticed that there will be some variation in OAL with a progressive until all the cases are fired in the same firearm. When you stroke the handle there will sometimes be a variation in pressure. This is probably from sizing and may tip the shell plate slightly which will cause the variation in OAL. When I was loading .223 on a progressive I solved the problem by sizing off the press and using an "M" die instead of pulling the sizing ball through the case. The OAL was then minimum and press operation was really smooth.

For the pistol I dont think that is necessary. The cheaper bullets are always going to have some variation built in. Unless you are using a max load it shouldnt be a problem. I would try loading with the same headstamp brass fired in your pistol and some FMJ bullets. That should tell if there is some problem with the press.

 

[HK SD9 Tactical]

I didn't read every single response (since some of them were off topic), but are you measuring to the tip of the bullet? And have you tried measuring to the ogive?

Yes all measurements were from the base of the case rim (bottom of the case) to the very tip of the bullet. The initial run was measured using the round nose seating stem and the OAL variances were so extreme that I went to the flat nose seating stem and still would up with extreme COALs.

With these RB round nose bullets, it's almost impossible to get an accurate reading to the ogive of the bullet. However I am collecting data to quantify the ogive variances to determine just how much of the COAL is shifing due to the various lengths of the bullets and the start of the ogive.

 

[HK SD9 Tactical]

I have noticed that there will be some variation in OAL with a progressive until all the cases are fired in the same firearm. When you stroke the handle there will sometimes be a variation in pressure. This is probably from sizing and may tip the shell plate slightly which will cause the variation in OAL. When I was loading .223 on a progressive I solved the problem by sizing off the press and using an "M" die instead of pulling the sizing ball through the case. The OAL was then minimum and press operation was really smooth.

For the pistol I dont think that is necessary. The cheaper bullets are always going to have some variation built in. Unless you are using a max load it shouldnt be a problem. I would try loading with the same headstamp brass fired in your pistol and some FMJ bullets. That should tell if there is some problem with the press.

95% of these cases were fired from my H&K USP 9mm Tactical. The shell plate is not suppose to tip, bend, or flex. The base of the case sits on the sub plate and the shell plate is only there to move the shell around the five stations while holding the case in an upright position while being retained by the retention spring around the shell plate. Stroking (again, please no derogatory remarks) was consistent and there were no half strokes, partial strokes, or lock ups of any kind while loading.

I may decide to size off the press (might as well prime at the same time) but that defeats the entire concept of a progressive leaving the progressive to only prime, charge & bell, and seat & crimp. For the amount of money that I spent, I could have just kept using my SS presses and bought lots more reloading supplies.

The max load is my major concern. Using the current Ramshot data for 9mm and 124gr Round Nose bullets, I am using max load data. However, Ramshots published data is light and there is always room for additional tweaking beyond their max recommendations.

Still have not gotten around to running the .357 Mag loads. Things keep on coming up delaying this. I hope to have all of them done by this evening.

 

[HK SD9 Tactical]

While I may not have found the culprit, I have some disturbing news. As I was setting up my dies for the .357 Mag loads, I noticed a piece of metal sitting on the shell plate just under station 4 (the seat & crimp die station that I used for the 9mm seating). It seems that the lugs on the female LnL bushing are fractured and a piece (the piece of metal found on the shell plate) is from one of the lugs. Of the 6 lugs on the female LnL bushing in station 4, one lug has a piece missing from the bottom of the lug (the piece I found). The other 5 lugs show signs of being fractured. There is a hair line fracture on the remaining 5 lugs, approximately 1/8 of an inch from the bottom of the lugs.

I also saw that on station 1 (deprime and size) there are 3 lugs in the female LnL bushing that have the same type of fracture on the base of those lugs. The remaining lugs in this station appear to be OK. The remaining 3 female LnL bushings (stations 2, 3, and 5) appear to be in good order. Pictures soon, as soon as I can get some good shots that show the fractures. An examination of all the male LnL bushings show no signs of fractrures or any stresses.

I tried to 'rock' the seating die in the broken female bushings but there is no perceptable movement (althought I am sure that there must be at least some) that I can find and I would be hard pressed to find a variance of .001 in betweend the top of the female bushing and the underside of the top flange of the male bushing. However, I do not have a gauge to take an exact measurement (looks like a visit to my nearest tool company). Never-the-less, I will be contacting Hornady for replacement parts.

Does ayone know how to remove the female LnL bushing inserts from the press or is that something that only Hornady service can do?

TIA

 

[Walkalong]

The press flexes some. You wouldn't think so, but it does. I size off the press, so all I am doing for pistol is expanding, seating, and crimping. When I am crimping in a second step there is always a small difference in seating depth when there is a round being crimped vs no round being crimped. The more stout the crimp, the more the difference(flex).

 

[HK SD9 Tactical]

The press flexes some. You wouldn't think so, but it does. I size off the press, so all I am doing for pistol is expanding, seating, and crimping. When I am crimping in a second step there is always a small difference in seating depth when there is a round being crimped vs no round being crimped. The more stout the crimp, the more the difference(flex).

I imagine that it would. Everything flexes dependent on the amount of force that is applied and the goal is minimal flex while achieving the maximum robustness that the press can give.

I will be doing some flex testing to see how much there is based on a single occupied station through all 5 occupied stations.

Now I will definately need to get to the tool shop today.....

 

[dudlee]

Does ayone know how to remove the female LnL bushing inserts from the press or is that something that only Hornady service can do?

I was wondering if they were threaded or Pressed into the frame myself...Will they pay to ship it back to them? Maybe Hornady will send you a new frame..

 

[wild willy]

Threaded Hornady knows about the problem they got a bad batch of them.Mine are ok but someone posted you remove them by putting the male bushing in from the bottom

 

[firstater]

Here is a post on the cracked bushings. I called Hornady and had them send me all new bushings. No problems. I put a die in from the bottom to get it out as someone suggested in the thread. It took a lot of force to get it out.

 

[the count]

"25 had a COAL of 1.155
14 had a COAL of 1.154
12 had a COAL of 1.153
20 had a COAL of 1.152
10 had a COAL of 1.151
8 had a COAL of 1.150"

This is of absolutely NO importance with normal pistol ammo. You want precision? Then start working with Lapua brass and (expensive) high grade jacketed bullets. And competition grade dies.

 

[dbarnhart]

This thread got me thinking, and out of curiosity I grabbed a box of brand new Winchester white box factory ammo in 45 ACP FMJ RN and started measuring COAL. In the first ten cartridges measured, the COAL varied from 2.58 to 2.70