Load developement procedure

OFFGRID

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I really love the hornady podcast. They always have some great food for thought, but i recently heard something odd. Alot of these guys arent doing a full load work up. I think one guy said they fire 10 rounds over the chrono and then pick a powder charge to test. Another said he just picks a grain under max and tests that. Some of them said they dont mess with seating depth much or other small details like 1/10 grain powder changes. They are all testing with 10 shot groups as well

Im sure i dont have the whole story of what these guys are doing and im sure its plenty safe but it kinda sounded odd. It also sounds like it saves alot of components. Does anyone have experience with this kind of stuff?
 
I’m not familiar with this podcast (or any other podcast) but are they representing Hornady or are they just some guys sitting around yammering? If the former, I’m very surprised. If the latter, I’d expect some disclaimer written by a Hornady lawyer plastered all over the screen.
 
A link to what you’re referring to would make it easier to know what you heard.
I’m all for saving components but if I have a new caliber with all new components, I’m starting at the beginning. If it’s a familiar caliber with most components the same and I have historical data, I can elect to an abbreviated workup.
 
10 shot groups isn't engraved in stone. But the idea of taking more than a few is. I commonly shoot with friends and we will watch each other and suggest alternatives. Watching the shooter and another on a spotting scope is great criticism. AT MINIMUM I will come back some other day and repeat the process and see if the results are the same. That way there are no surprises when the shots need to count.
 
The "fire 10 rounds over a chrono and then pick a powder charge" bit sounds like an oversimplification. And trying one grain under max to start seems like it's just hoping to get lucky. I guess it boils down to what you feel is a satisfactory load. You'll get better results by putting in more effort, but if you don't care that much, maybe you're just as well off settling for good enough.
 
I don't quite understand the OP, and have never heard the podcast.

With regard to "working up", it depends what I'm trying to accomplish. If the goal is winning a long range benchrest match, then load development may never actually be finished. If I just need a competent hunting load, then I often have followed a recipe I know to be reliable, and stopped just as soon as my accuracy and velocity requirements have been met - which often has been accomplished with ten shots or less.
 
i recently heard something odd. Alot of these guys arent doing a full load work up. I think one guy said they fire 10 rounds over the chrono and then pick a powder charge to test. Another said he just picks a grain under max and tests that. Some of them said they dont mess with seating depth much or other small details like 1/10 grain powder changes.
This is the process I reference and currently working on "Reloading at the range" with portable reloading setup (I plan on doing full load work up in 0.1 gr increments) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...s-and-discussions.778221/page-2#post-10938613
 
Doesn't sound alot different than what i've been doing this whole time. Never really had the setup nor opportunity to carefully workup a load. Just pick a charge that I know works and is safe, I test fire a few of them in my firearm or firearms and if there's no over pressure signs, accuracy and recoil is good then I call it a day and load to that load.
Would be kinda odd if they're representatives of a company and that's all they do.
 
Indeed, the Hornady engineers have presented data which suggests most common load development methods don't survive contact with actual science. One particularly polarizing episode presented results which show that the Satterlee curve (derived from Creighton Audette's Ladder method ~50yrs before) doesn't hold up. They presented data which showed that powder charge nodes - flat spots in the velocity vs. charge weight curve - don't survive from barrel to barrel. Alex Wheeler & Erik Cortina put out a podcast a couple of years ago which also agreed - there's no such thing as a velocity node, but rather we experience relatively coincidental nodes correlated to what really amounts to experimental bias which occur because competitors use the same components (bullets, brass, powder, barrels, cartridges) for the same purposes/courses of fire, so it should be natural that doing the same thing yields the same results... Bryan Litz & Doc Beech's team at Applied Ballistics have a similar podcast with similar findings, also published within Volume 3 of Applied Ballistics Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting (chapter starts on page 57 for those following along).

In my own testing, having conducted the same tests over multiple different barrels which both confirm repeatable results within a range of barrel life for a specific barrel, but ALSO confirm that powder charge nodes don't last forever and don't uniformly transfer from one barrel to the next. If I lay out 5 or 6 tests (15-18) on top of one another for a given barrel, I get nodes repeating in the same location, with ever so slight variability in the velocity result for each (hence why I confirm my nodes and correct my velocity before matches), BUT, when I overlay all of the data I have using the same components, which now spans 11 different barrels, I get one big, fuzzy catepillar shaped data set which perfectly matches a simple linear regression (Change in potential energy available = change in kinetic energy yielded by the system).

Alternatively, before a match last season, I swapped barrels at midnight on Wednesday night when I returned from a business trip and used absolutely arbitrary load data - I texted a buddy from Wisconsin who I knew was using the same bullet and brass - both new to me - and I dropped his load into my barrel, and at 9am Thursday morning, I shot the smallest 20rnd group I've ever fired in my life, and ONE of the smallest 10rnd groups I've ever fired (technically 2, or maybe technically 3, since the first 10 and second 10 of the 20rnd group would have also been on the short list). I shot 35 rounds at a 100yrd zero board 3 for a group, moved the scope, 1 more, moved to zero, 11 on one target, then 20 on another, estimated a velocity, then moved to an 800yrd KYL and took one shot each to walk down from ~2.5moa to 3/4MOA, and put 6 rounds on the 3/4moa target at 800... Complete SWAG on velocity, brand new barrel which had been on the rifle for less than half a day, ammo loaded STARTING in the middle of the night on virgin brass of a brand I'd never used before, and a bullet I'd never used before... I taught an Intro to PRS Competition course that day, then used the same load to shoot a 1 day match that weekend...

Don't overthink load development - but don't chase 3 shot groups at 100yrds and pretend the results are meaningful either...

I’m not familiar with this podcast (or any other podcast) but are they representing Hornady or are they just some guys sitting around yammering? If the former, I’m very surprised. If the latter, I’d expect some disclaimer written by a Hornady lawyer plastered all over the screen.

Be surprised then.

The Hornady Podcast is hosted by a figure head, Seth Swerczek, but the meat and potatoes of the discussions are lead by Senior Ballistician Jayden Quinlan, Ballistician Jacob Morrow, and Engineer Miles Neville (productive competitive shooters themselves). The data-driven science they share, for FREE, through this podcast - much akin to the Applied Ballistics Podcast - is an exceptional resource for shooters, and has invaluable information being shared freely online for the betterment of our engaged community. Narcissism and cynicism aren't part of their program.
 
Indeed, the Hornady engineers have presented data which suggests most common load development methods don't survive contact with actual science. One particularly polarizing episode presented results which show that the Satterlee curve (derived from Creighton Audette's Ladder method ~50yrs before) doesn't hold up. They presented data which showed that powder charge nodes - flat spots in the velocity vs. charge weight curve - don't survive from barrel to barrel. Alex Wheeler & Erik Cortina put out a podcast a couple of years ago which also agreed - there's no such thing as a velocity node, but rather we experience relatively coincidental nodes correlated to what really amounts to experimental bias which occur because competitors use the same components (bullets, brass, powder, barrels, cartridges) for the same purposes/courses of fire, so it should be natural that doing the same thing yields the same results... Bryan Litz & Doc Beech's team at Applied Ballistics have a similar podcast with similar findings, also published within Volume 3 of Applied Ballistics Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting (chapter starts on page 57 for those following along).

In my own testing, having conducted the same tests over multiple different barrels which both confirm repeatable results within a range of barrel life for a specific barrel, but ALSO confirm that powder charge nodes don't last forever and don't uniformly transfer from one barrel to the next. If I lay out 5 or 6 tests (15-18) on top of one another for a given barrel, I get nodes repeating in the same location, with ever so slight variability in the velocity result for each (hence why I confirm my nodes and correct my velocity before matches), BUT, when I overlay all of the data I have using the same components, which now spans 11 different barrels, I get one big, fuzzy catepillar shaped data set which perfectly matches a simple linear regression (Change in potential energy available = change in kinetic energy yielded by the system).

Alternatively, before a match last season, I swapped barrels at midnight on Wednesday night when I returned from a business trip and used absolutely arbitrary load data - I texted a buddy from Wisconsin who I knew was using the same bullet and brass - both new to me - and I dropped his load into my barrel, and at 9am Thursday morning, I shot the smallest 20rnd group I've ever fired in my life, and ONE of the smallest 10rnd groups I've ever fired (technically 2, or maybe technically 3, since the first 10 and second 10 of the 20rnd group would have also been on the short list). I shot 35 rounds at a 100yrd zero board 3 for a group, moved the scope, 1 more, moved to zero, 11 on one target, then 20 on another, estimated a velocity, then moved to an 800yrd KYL and took one shot each to walk down from ~2.5moa to 3/4MOA, and put 6 rounds on the 3/4moa target at 800... Complete SWAG on velocity, brand new barrel which had been on the rifle for less than half a day, ammo loaded STARTING in the middle of the night on virgin brass of a brand I'd never used before, and a bullet I'd never used before... I taught an Intro to PRS Competition course that day, then used the same load to shoot a 1 day match that weekend...

Don't overthink load development - but don't chase 3 shot groups at 100yrds and pretend the results are meaningful either...



Be surprised then.

The Hornady Podcast is hosted by a figure head, Seth Swerczek, but the meat and potatoes of the discussions are lead by Senior Ballistician Jayden Quinlan, Ballistician Jacob Morrow, and Engineer Miles Neville (productive competitive shooters themselves). The data-driven science they share, for FREE, through this podcast - much akin to the Applied Ballistics Podcast - is an exceptional resource for shooters, and has invaluable information being shared freely online for the betterment of our engaged community. Narcissism and cynicism aren't part of their program.
Haven’t a clue what you just said:)
 
Don't overthink load development - but don't chase 3 shot groups at 100yrds and pretend the results are meaningful either...

good advice..^^^

Many people stumble across a tight group and stop load development at that point and “call er good”. I was taught to complete the process and follow the data, in my case I use the target to tell me what’s what. I’m somewhat familiar with the loads I’m working with in regard to known powder types for that caliber and I know about what depth my bullets are going to tune but I still go through the steps to the end, including primers, bullet hold without predetermined conclusions using minimum components as I go along. One could certainly tune a very expensive barrel to death far before its time.

Just my nickel ..
 
I hesitate to comment because the last time I responded to one of @OFFGRID ’s threads with load development feedback I was called a “douchbag”

I will say this. Load development is a fairly simple process. I can generally find a tuned load for a rifle in 75 rounds when starting with conventional wisdom on a best powder/bullet selection.

It’s a sequential 4 step process:

1. Powder charge accuracy node using an OCW method
2. Seating depth testing
3. Primer selection testing
4. 20 round verification at 500 yards

What Hornady’s ballisticians have to say about it has very little value to me, and here’s why: the product they’re fronting for falls short of the required consistency to use in a rifle match, that effects their credibility and relegates their podcast to nothing more than product marketing (something Hornady excels at)

I don’t know any serious competitive shooters in High Power, F Class or Bench Rest that use Hornady bullets or brass (PRS may be different). They just aren’t consistent enough to carry the accuracy needed in a match. A few tried their ELD-M’s when they first came out and were getting blow ups during matches. Also, their over-hyped, wildly expensive A-Tips turned out to be nothing more than a gimmick.

Much like their competitor Nosler, they make very good hunting bullets, but their “match” bullets fall short when precision and consistency matters. In my opinion, their engineers should spend more of their energy fixing that and less on podcasting.

That’s my opinion.
 
I hesitate to comment because the last time I responded to one of @OFFGRID ’s threads with load development feedback I was called a “douchbag”

I will say this. Load development is a fairly simple process. I can generally find a tuned load for a rifle in 75 rounds when starting with conventional wisdom on a best powder/bullet selection.

It’s a sequential 4 step process:

1. Powder charge accuracy node using an OCW method
2. Seating depth testing
3. Primer selection testing
4. 20 round verification at 500 yards

What Hornady’s ballisticians have to say about it has very little value to me, and here’s why: the product they’re fronting for falls short of the required consistency to use in a rifle match, that effects their credibility and relegates their podcast to nothing more than product marketing (something Hornady excels at)

I don’t know any serious competitive shooters in High Power, F Class or Bench Rest that use Hornady bullets or brass (PRS may be different). They just aren’t consistent enough to carry the accuracy needed in a match. A few tried their ELD-M’s when they first came out and were getting blow ups during matches. Also, their over-hyped, wildly expensive A-Tips turned out to be nothing more than a gimmick.

Much like their competitor Nosler, they make very good hunting bullets, but their “match” bullets fall short when precision and consistency matters. In my opinion, their engineers should spend more of their energy fixing that and less on podcasting.

That’s my opinion.
If you haven’t been called a deuce at least once, you’re just not trying. 😁

I play in the opposite game, literally. Small, light, thin-skinned game. Food stock and vermin. I get one shot, if I’m lucky, at rock throwing distances. I better put that one bullet where it needs to go or it’s a long slog through the swamps and thickets. Palmetto is not fun to run through.

I tried the 300-600yd routine and it is just not for me. Nope.

But I will belittle no man (or woman) for chasing that game.
 
Haven’t a clue what you just said:)
CQB, ol buddy, he said crawl out from the dark and watch the podcasts. First hand is always best hand.

I'll add that the list of names and companies in Varms thread pretty much define modern scientific ballistic development. They have the means and cutting-edge facilities to test endlessly and that's just what they do.

Last, in the podcast they very carefully separate out the need for hunter class folks to conduct the painstaking test by benchrest and pro shooters. They admit to not doing all of it themselves as evidenced in some of this thread content.
 
I don’t know any serious competitive shooters in High Power, F Class or Bench Rest that use Hornady bullets or brass (PRS may be different).

A lot of new shooters use ELDm’s, largely because they’re cheap and widely available. A guy could win PRS matches with them, but I’m not terribly certain how many - if any - pro series matches I noted this season ever WERE won with them. A-tips had a bit of a following last season and the year before, but they kinda fell off this season. I know a few guys shooting 109ELD’s - which are special contract production with GA Precision to put ELD tips into 110 A-Tip bullets - but they’re not top level dudes… that’s all a long way to say, eh, Hornady bullets aren’t leading the PRS, but they have a niche. They legitimately might be the most popular bullet in the PRS however, because there is a MASSIVE base of new and lower end shooters who use them.

But I will defend - their podcast largely describes the difficulty in making factory ammo, because nodes just don’t survive universally across many barrels. I have something around 30 of my data sets for 6 creed with triplicate strings for 11 different barrels, even though each barrel exhibits consistent nodes, if I overlay all of them together, it produces just one wide band of results with exceptionally linear boundaries and fantastic linear regression.

Which might just be a really long way to describe why they stopped printing load data on their box, because their new testing revealed there was no more likelihood that 41.5grn H4350 under 140 ELD’s would shoot better in any given rifle than any other load.
 
CQB, ol buddy, he said crawl out from the dark and watch the podcasts. First hand is always best hand.

I'll add that the list of names and companies in Varms thread pretty much define modern scientific ballistic development. They have the means and cutting-edge facilities to test endlessly and that's just what they do.

Last, in the podcast they very carefully separate out the need for hunter class folks to conduct the painstaking test by benchrest and pro shooters. They admit to not doing all of it themselves as evidenced in some of this thread content.
Yup
 
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